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Ross Douthat Editorial: "Gospels testify against attempts to deconstruct them"
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Tom

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April 8, 2023 - 2:52 pm

I’d be interested in your comments regarding Ross Douthat’s recent NYT editorial on the gospels. In it he decries the history of “skeptically deconstructing the New Testament, in search of a “Historical Jesus” distinct from the Christ of faith…”. He apparently takes issue with the “deconstructionist argument-that the immediate issues with the Gospels indicate that they’re long-after-the-fact creations, driven by agendas more than memories…” He also complains that only a skeptic could come away from the gospels “feeling that the core narrativw isn’t deeply rooted in eyewitness testimony…”. He maintains that the Gospel of Mark reads like :the memories of the Apostle Peter dictated or transmitted to a younger scribe” and cites the inclusion of several Aramaic words as proof. He strongly recommends reading the “persuasive scholarship” of the book, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, by Richard Bauckham.

Of course, Douthat is a staunch defender of all things Catholic and a rabid conservative. Nevertheless, I was a bit surprised to see him doubling down on the Mark/Peter gospel authorship and the idea of all the gospels being eyewitness perspectives.

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Robert
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April 8, 2023 - 3:05 pm
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Steefen
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April 8, 2023 - 3:24 pm

Tom
I’d be interested in your comments regarding Ross Douthat’s recent NYT editorial on the gospels. In it he decries the history of “skeptically deconstructing the New Testament, in search of a “Historical Jesus” distinct from the Christ of faith…”.

Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Is he defending the narrative of the institution of faith during the Easter season?
People do that.
“Of course, Douthat is a staunch defender of all things Catholic…”

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Porphyry

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April 8, 2023 - 3:47 pm

I’ve heard that veterans of the civil war were shocked to learn that Stephen Crane had himself not fought, so compelling was his description of war in the Red Badge of Courage.

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Stephen
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April 8, 2023 - 5:13 pm

Douhat’s article appeared on the NYT editorial page? Really? I thought the NYT was a bastion of leftwingliberalsocialism (always to be uttered as one word).

Douthat is simply out of touch. Alas, he’s not alone.

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Tom

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April 8, 2023 - 8:57 pm

Here’s his NYT opinion piece: ** you do not have permission to see this link **

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Porphyry

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April 9, 2023 - 8:44 am

Having actually read the piece, I found it at least somewhat provocative.

His overarching point is that people in recent history have tended to encounter the gospels in a dogmatic setting (the gospels are approached as the sacred texts of Christianity); and this has caused a backlash from secularists in the critical attempt to undermine them; if you read them “naively”–that is, without considering any connection to dogmatic religion–their blemishes and inconsistencies are clear, but they are also much more remarkable.

His message seems a bit confused, but it is striking, I think, that he seems to be basically advocating what critical scholars have been advocating for ages: read the gospels on their own terms; ignore the fact that these are canonical books; put aside the dogma you have been taught and just hear each author out in his own words.

He seems to think that will lead us to take the gospels more seriously as historical documents (though he admits it won’t get us back to Christian orthodoxy), and that it will be the end of what he calls the “deconstructionist project”.

I think it’s an interesting proposal. Yeah, there is something initially plausible in the idea that whatever early Christianity is, whatever problems and inconsistencies, and implausibilities, it is very weird and so there’s got to be something special that was happening. On the other hand . . . When you actually look at those problems, and when you start trying to say what exactly the something special is that was going on, you invariably end up with something closer to the Jesus of history that the higher critics reconstruct than anything Douthat would recognize as Christ.

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Steefen
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April 9, 2023 - 11:11 am

Porphry
There is something plausible in the implausibilities, problems, inconsistencies and weirdness of biblical Christianity.
There must be something special happening.

Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy.
What is the absurdist movement in art?
Absurdity in art shows an inverted and contradictory version of reality that juxtaposes multiple realities in order to invite people to look at life differently.

Porphry
Nevertheless, it is striking: read the gospels but ignore the later development that they were canonized and dogma came from them.

Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I’m sure Bart Ehrman and others in his field and related fields have done that.

Porphyry
The gospels will be taken more seriously as historical documents.

Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
With no memoirs, autobiographies, biographies dated 27 CE to 33 CE(?): unacceptable.
500 people saw, not the risen Jesus but the risen Christ–and how many people saw Lazarus come out of the tomb(?); Jesus turns over tables and not one merchants runs to a Roman guard and points at him(?)–and no one wrote a memoir, autobiography, biography, or made a figurine, 27 CE to 33 CE. How about a tomb with graffiti: Jesus was here–30CE to 33 CE?

What, Luke-Acts will be taken more seriously than it is as a historical document? The miracles will be taken more seriously as history?

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Porphyry

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April 9, 2023 - 12:04 pm

Steefen, I’m impressed at how completely you managed to mangle my post in your paraphrases.

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Steefen
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April 9, 2023 - 4:19 pm

read the gospels on their own terms
ignore the fact that these are canonical books
put aside the dogma you have been taught and
just hear each author out in his own words
that will lead us to take the gospels more seriously as historical documents

Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy, author of Stocks and Cryptos
It will not.
The gospels will still be read in much context:
– in context of the First Jewish-Roman War
– in context of Enoch 1 & II
– in context of Paul and Marcion
– in context of Greco-Roman literature (including the Homeric Epics, the biography of Julius Caesar, the writings of Cicero,) and more
– in context of The Dead Sea Scrolls
and more
The problem is with what you presented, not my paraphrase.

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Porphyry

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April 9, 2023 - 4:47 pm

The failure was in your reading comprehension.

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Stephen
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April 9, 2023 - 6:38 pm

Well if the point is that we should approach the gospels just like we do any other ancient literature then I agree. But I think the first thing you have to do is put aside the question of whether any of it actually happened. Historical questions are important but if you get bogged down in them you are forever barred from the garden. Read it like a story. Let it work itself out through your imagination.

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Steefen
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April 10, 2023 - 7:13 am

Porphyry
The failure was in your reading comprehension.

Stephen Campbell, author and editor
Unsubstantiated drivel

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Steefen
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April 10, 2023 - 7:18 am

Stephen
Well if the point is that we should approach the gospels just like we do any other ancient literature then I agree. But I think the first thing you have to do is put aside the question of whether any of it actually happened. Historical questions are important but if you get bogged down in them you are forever barred from the garden. Read it like a story. Let it work itself out through your imagination.

Steve Campbell
If people are going to have their books burned, it better be more than historical fiction.
If people are going to find their god in it, it better be more than ANCIENT literature–and imagination.

What books were burnt and wars fought/lives lost for the Homeric Epics and the Aeneid?

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Steefen
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April 10, 2023 - 7:30 am

Porphyry
The failure was in your reading comprehension.

Stephen Campbell, author and editor
Unsubstantiated drivel

= = = =

Porphry, excellent argumentation and conversation is what is expected in these threads. I will engage/cooperate with you based on those.

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Tom

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April 10, 2023 - 8:44 am

It seemed to me that Douthat’s argument was that the gospels are eyewitness accounts of what really happened and was said. Therefore, a naive reading free from all that deconstructionist nitpicking will allow the new generation not raised on religious orthodoxy to accept their factual authenticity.
He’s wrong on both counts. They’re not eyewitness accounts. Each has an agenda. And uncritical acceptance of their ‘stories’, his “naive” reading, is exactly what the church has promoted over the centuries in its teachings, art, and even the design and decoration of its cathedrals.

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Robert
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April 10, 2023 - 9:32 am
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Porphyry

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April 10, 2023 - 10:28 am

It seemed to me that Douthat’s argument was that the gospels are eyewitness accounts of what really happened and was said.

That is presumably what he believes, but it isn’t quite what he explicitly argues here (though I’m sure rendering his own belief plausible is motivating him).

you have to go into the Gospels with a skeptical framework already to come away from them feeling [em. mine throughout] that the core narrative isn’t deeply rooted in eyewitness testimony. . . . You can say that the narratives represent a form of memoir [are recording things the author or his source remembers], or you can say that they’re an ingenious impersonation of personal testimony that would tax the skills of a brilliant 20th-century novelist [i.e., they are skillful fakes of memoirs]. But the reader who thinks the narratives read like after-the-fact legend making, Lewis rightly insists, “has simply not learned to read.”

And he immediately adds, “That a particular reading of the New Testament comes naturally doesn’t make that reading correct, of course”

Take his example of Mark including a number of quotations from Jesus in Aramaic. Obviously that doesn’t prove that Mark or his source was present and simply recording what he saw and heard–but that *is* certainly the impression that it gives.

uncritical acceptance of their ‘stories’, his “naive” reading, is exactly what the church has promoted over the centuries in its teachings, art, and even the design and decoration of its cathedrals

That’s not what he means by “naive”. He explains what he means:

In the not-so-distant past when 90 or 95 percent of Americans identified as Christian, it was hard for almost anyone in that vast majority to read the Christian Gospels naïvely — to come to them without preconceptions. . . . Instead, almost everyone encountered them first through either the structures of organized Christianity — as a text for Sunday school and Bible study, the experience of the scripture inseparable from the experience of church — or with the expectations set up by Christianity’s overwhelming cultural influence. . . . . But with the rapid decline of institutional Christianity . . . a more naïve encounter with the New Testament may become more normal . . . more people will experience the Gospels first as a form of testimony and storytelling that precedes any fully realized set of doctrines or vision of the church.

As to the naive reading being uncritical–I suppose it depends on what you mean by “uncritical”, but he doesn’t mean simply taking them as true; he say on a naive reading that many problems are obvious:

The naïve reader, going through the evangelists in order, will notice immediately much of what the skeptics emphasize about the seeming imperfections of the texts. That Jesus is given different genealogies in Luke and Matthew. That timelines and details differ among the authors. That Jesus drives the money changers out of the temple early in his ministry in the Gospel of John and just before his crucifixion in the others. That Jesus in John’s Gospel talks differently, with his long theological discourses, from Jesus in the other narratives. Whether or not it’s possible to resolve some of these issues, they present themselves directly to the reader, and they don’t require any special training to pick up. And the naïve reader will also intuitively understand, without needing to be historically aware of the details, the debates about Jesus’ identity that consumed the early church. The Gospels all present him as a messiah, clearly — but the question of what that actually means is not completely or consistently answered in an initial reading of the texts.

I don’t think that Douthat is right on a bunch of the details, but I don’t think he wrong about everything either: It is hard to read canonical texts (especially not texts as famous, influential, and consequential as the gospels) without some sort of prejudice—this is obvious in the case of devout Christians who approach the texts assuming they support their church’s dogma (e.g., of course Mark thinks Jesus was a divine person), but you see it from the other side as well (consider how popular mythicism is among amateurs: there is an apparent felt need to totally undermine Christianity).

I think Douthat is right to note that there is something very strange in the gospels. Just from a literary perspective, they defined their own genre. I don’t think there was a clear precedent for them when Mark put pen to paper, and what he produced was, arguably, a work of genius. And I understand the temptation, that I think is the subtext for Douthat’s piece, that their queerness should make us stop and wonder if there isn’t something really special going on here. But as I pointed out earlier, when you move from that initial position, when you move from the 30,000-foot view of Christianity and dig into the details to try to figure out what precisely was going on and to try to address some of those problems that leap off the page even to the naive reader, you end up having to conclude that, while there was certainly something unusual going on in the formation of Christianity, it wasn’t special for the reason Christians think it was special.

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Porphyry

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April 10, 2023 - 1:02 pm

Sigh. Okay, Steefen, let’s compare what you attributed to me to what I actually wrote:

Porphry
There is something plausible in the implausibilities, problems, inconsistencies and weirdness of biblical Christianity.
There must be something special happening.

What I actually wrote:

I think it’s an interesting proposal. Yeah, there is something initially plausible in the idea that whatever early Christianity is, whatever problems and inconsistencies, and implausibilities, it is very weird and so there’s got to be something special that was happening. On the other hand . . . When you actually look at those problems, and when you start trying to say what exactly the something special is that was going on, you invariably end up with something closer to the Jesus of history that the higher critics reconstruct than anything Douthat would recognize as Christ.

I never said there is something “plausible in the implausibilities, problems, and inconsistencies.” I said that Douthat’s proposal, that *despite* the implausibilities, problems, and inconsistencies, there was still something special happening in early Christianity is *initially plausible.* But I then followed up to say why that observation, despite its initial plausibility, doesn’t go where Douthat wants it to go.
What you attributed to me is not equivalent either to what I wrote or to what I claimed that Douthat wrote.

Porphry
Nevertheless, it is striking: read the gospels but ignore the later development that they were canonized and dogma came from them.

Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I’m sure Bart Ehrman and others in his field and related fields have done that.

No sh*t?

Here’s what I wrote

it is striking, I think, that he seems to be basically advocating what critical scholars have been advocating for ages: read the gospels on their own terms; ignore the fact that these are canonical books; put aside the dogma you have been taught and just hear each author out in his own words

Note how you skip over the part where I actually said what is striking: “he seems to be basically advocating what critical scholars have been advocating for ages”

Again, you mangled what I wrote–which is that what he is advocating is in essence what critical scholars (like “Ehrman and others in his field”) have been advocating, namely, that we “read the gospels on their own terms; ignore the fact that these are canonical books; put aside the dogma you have been taught and just hear each author out in his own words.” Then you have the gall to throw back at me the observation that Erhman at al. have been doing this, as though that refutes me. That was literally my explicit point, and it was obvious if one reads what I actually wrote.

Porphyry
The gospels will be taken more seriously as historical documents.

He seems to think that will lead us to take the gospels more seriously as historical documents

The “he seems to think” with which I started that sentence sort of changes the meaning, n’est-ce pas?

Porphry, excellent argumentation and conversation is what is expected in these threads. I will engage/cooperate with you based on those.

If you can’t make a reasonable effort to represent accurately the plain and obvious meaning of what I wrote, I don’t want your engagement. I’m not demanding excellent argumentation, just ordinary care for the clear facts and basic fairness to interlocutors.

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Steefen
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April 10, 2023 - 10:41 pm

Steefen said
Porphyry
The failure was in your reading comprehension.

Stephen Campbell, author and editor
Unsubstantiated drivel

No need for insults, Steefen. Porphyry (and I) have the impression that you missed his point.
= = =

No need for defending Porphyry’s insult, Robert.

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