- The Artifact: In the late 19th century, a small, engraved cylinder or amulet (often called the Orpheus Bakkikos amulet) appeared. It featured a crucified figure with seven stars (the Pleiades) and a crescent moon above it. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Dionysus or Orpheus: The amulet featured an inscription that can be translated as “Orpheus Bakkikos,” meaning “Orpheus becomes Bacchus”. Bacchus is the Roman name for Dionysus, the god of wine and rebirth. Because Orpheus was the legendary prophet and founder of the Dionysian mystery cults, scholars debate whether the image depicts Dionysus himself or the enlightened initiate (Orpheus) who has fully identified with the god. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- The Meaning: In the context of ancient mystery religions, the crucifixion was not a punishment, but a symbol of the initiate’s mystical death to their “lower, earthly nature” and their spiritual rebirth. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Current Status: The original tablet or amulet was donated to the Berlin Museums but tragically vanished after World War II, leading many modern scholars to question its authenticity and classify it as a 3rd-century gnostic or a later forgery. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- The Divine Sonship & Virgin Birth: Dionysus was the son of Zeus (the king of the gods) and Semele, a mortal woman. This made him the only Olympian deity born of a human mother, mirroring Jesus as the Son of God born to Mary. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- The Miracles of Wine: Dionysus was the god of wine and was said to miraculously transform water into wine at his festivals. In the Gospel of John, Jesus’s very first miracle is turning water into wine at the wedding in Cana. Later, Jesus declares, “I am the true vine,” using direct vineyard imagery. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Death and Resurrection: In Orphic and Dionysian mythology, Dionysus is attacked, dismembered by the Titans, and subsequently reborn or reconstructed. This cycle of death, descent into the underworld, and bodily resurrection directly mirrors the Christian passion narrative. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- The Ritual of Communion: Dionysian initiates practiced omophagia—the ritual eating of raw flesh and drinking of wine to spiritually absorb the divine essence of the god. This conceptually parallels the Christian Eucharist (the sacrament of consuming the body and blood of Christ).
Dionysus is syncretized with Serapis in the Ptolemaic period, and ofc ancient Egyptians considered Jesus Christ the successor to Serapis in that one Roman report. It’s possible (I’m not sure) that he was trying to hit all the marks of enacting all the civilized world’s traditions that iterate from the Lord of Life/Lord of Benevolence (Enki).
Mandaean emanations per me:
V1. Enki
V2. Ea (or maybe his son Asar that is Asalluhi?)
V3. Asar that is Osiris
V4. Serapis (which includes Osiris, Ptah, Dionysus)
Meanwhile, the Mandaeans instead keep chugging along the closest to the Sumerian religion, the world’s first written religion, as a kind of re-enactment. (This doesn’t work too well once the river is polluted by population increase and they lose almost all their priests to cholera – but back when Sumeria had a small population, being in a more sparsely utilized, forcefully cleaning, solarized freshwater river fed by ground water was probably the best way to cleanse a lot of things. Now distilled water in a cleanroom might be.)
Some ancient historians thought that Dionysus = Dusares, Nabataea ‘s deity, and obv I think Nabataea is backing the Jesus movement. My latest take is that Dusares = Dasares (logogram of Enki’s son).
As far as turning water into wine in a physics-based world, distillation is an innovation of the first century in Alexandria Egypt, and then you can simply reconstitute it.
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- Ancient Roots: The Mandaean people trace their origins to the Jordan Valley. Fleeing persecution in the 1st century, they migrated eastward to the rivers of Mesopotamia. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Persecution and Diaspora: Historically concentrated along the banks of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Iraq and Iran, Mandaeans were often known as expert goldsmiths. Following recent decades of severe conflict and persecution in Iraq, the majority of the community has relocated to the West. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Central Prophets: They revere figures like Adam, Abel, Noah, and particularly John the Baptist. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Frequent Baptism: Known to the outside world as the “Christians of St. John,” their core sacrament is masbuta (full-immersion baptism). It must be performed in running, “living” freshwater, which remains critical to maintaining ritual purity. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Gnostic Tradition: Mandaeanism belongs to the Gnostic tradition. Their sacred texts, written in Classical Mandaic, focus on esoteric knowledge (manda) and the journey of the soul from the material world into the World of Light. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Ethnoreligious Identity: You must be born a Mandaean to belong to the faith; the community does not accept converts. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Language: They have a three-millennia literary tradition and use the Eastern Aramaic Mandaic language in their sacred texts and priesthood. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Global Populations: The worldwide population is estimated between 60,000 and 100,000. Significant diaspora populations thrive in Sweden, Australia, Canada, and the United States (with notable communities in New York and San Diego). [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
V4. Serapis (which includes Osiris, Ptah, Dionysus)
Steefen:
I’ve heard of Osiris and Apis. As per below, until I get used to it, I’ll think Serapis-Ptah or Osiris-Apis-Ptah.
= = = =
- Ptah & Hathor: Initially considered the son of Hathor, he became the “herald” and physical avatar of Ptah.
- Osiris: As time progressed, the deceased Apis was merged with Osiris (god of the underworld) to become Apis-Osiris (or Osorapis), symbolizing eternal rebirth.
- Depiction: In Egyptian art, Apis is almost always depicted as a black bull with a sun disc and a snake (uraeus) between its horns. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
= = = =
For Vespasian, this is interesting.
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- What it was: A massive underground labyrinth and catacomb used for the burial of the sacred Apis bulls. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- History: Used for over 1,300 years (roughly 1400 BC to 30 BC). The Apis bulls were considered earthly manifestations of the god Ptah. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Key Features: It features vast underground galleries containing 24 enormous granite sarcophagi, some weighing over 60 tons, which were chiseled with absolute precision. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Status Today: Discovered by French archaeologist Auguste Mariette in 1850, the site is located in the Memphis necropolis and can be visited today. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
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- What it was: A grand, monumental temple and cultural center built by the Ptolemaic Greeks. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- History: Erected by Ptolemy III Euergetes in the 3rd Century BC to honor Serapis—a syncretic god meant to unite the Greek and Egyptian peoples of Alexandria. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Key Features: At its peak, it was one of the largest and most magnificent temples in the city. It also famously housed a “daughter library” to the Great Library of Alexandria. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
- Status Today: The temple was destroyed in 391 AD by a Christian mob led by the Patriarch Theophilus. Today, only the ruins—famously known as Pompey’s Pillar—survive in Alexandria. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
Regarding Ptah:
In later times this god also acquired the characteristics of the god Osiris, resulting in the god Ptah-Sokar-Osiris.
As the patron deity of craftsmen, builders, and architects, he was worshipped as the ultimate divine artisan who brought the universe into existence using the power of thought and speech.
= = =
Steefen:
Sounds like Jesus in the gospel of John is Ptah and Serapis.
= = =
Ptah-Sokar-Osiris: Over time, Sokar merged with Ptah (the creator god of Memphis) and Osiris (the primary ruler of the underworld) to form the composite deity Ptah-Sokar-Osiris. This combined god represented the cycle of creation, underworld stability, and resurrection.
Steefen:
So when I think of Lord of the Resurrection, I now think of Osiris, Sokar, and Jesus.
Exactly. Syncretism chains. Soker might be the deity referenced in Issachar, because for the Canaanite-origin 15th dynasty, there’s Salitus (Joseph the Salit) then Jacob, Soker-Har, Benoni (Benoni) — all in the right order.
In the case of Serapis, it’s an interpretio type of syncretism where the deities have similar function. It’s not the common Egyptian style of syncretism where the deities have dissimilar function but represent the union of two regions (like the Ra and Amun regional temples of the Two Lands) or maybe maybe a personal god and a tribal god (which is my guess for Ra-Horus.)
Personal god + tribal god is ofc how I imagine the Egyptian Yah deity came about in my evolving hypothesis — Ea in Sin is the 28th lunar day in the Babylonian hemerologies. And here we find the pork proscription, the Sappatu (Sabbath), and the no leeks and garlic mentioned in Exodus. This would match how Mandaeans say Abraham was originally a priest for The Great Life (imo Ea in anuship) but was removed from that responsibility, and they don’t say he apostasized from worship afaik but just stepped down, while he also stops at the two major Sin/Suen temple towns, and his family have Sin/Suen style lunar names. Then my guess is that his Lord is first Hammurabi, then the Amorite 14th dynasty – here would be the circumcision.
So henotheism to monotheism. And because it covers vast time and multiple cultures, it’s complicated. Jesus to me absolutely sounds like someone who got the very best education for the son of a handmaiden to a Lord, and if he has access to the cracked cuneiform, might be exhibiting an understanding of religious history and not just be enacting traditions of the Antiquarian Revival (the Antiquarian Revival of Seleucid Uruk as it diffuses to Galilee-Peraea via Nabataeans like Chuza and Phaesalis) without understanding it.
1stadam1stantiochian said
Steefen said
Stephen, can you give us some kind of a summary, I’m asking because I am losing you …
Stephen said
Stephen, can you give us some kind of a summary, I’m asking because I am losing you …
I’m sorry it just wouldn’t work. There’s the difference in our ages. You didn’t want kids…
I made up my mind decades ago [made 3 kids with 1 woman], even if the rest of you haven’t. If your goal is to deconstruct Judeo-Christianity by arguing that the shift from Aramaic to Greek [language, lingua franca] introduced pagan myths—like Dionysian rituals of eating raw meat and drowning in wine barrels—that’s just one niche theory. Either way, I don’t see what people confusing John the Baptist with the Savior has to do with any of it.
Why is Greek influence treated as a ‘problem’? I’m perfectly comfortable admitting that Christianity leaned heavily into the Greek language and worldview to spread. But using Greek concepts to communicate the gospel doesn’t mean Jesus was a carbon copy of Dionysus, nor does it require us to deny Him. It just means the early Church knew how to speak to its audience.
Even if early Christianity heavily adopted Greek language and concepts over Jewish ones, that is just standard religious development. It is no different than how the Egyptians merged Ptah, Sokar, and Osiris into a single composite deity over time. Cultural adaptation is how spiritual ideas survive and spread—it doesn’t mean you deny the core figure of Jesus.
If we look at the history of religion, the transition from Old Testament burnt offerings—which the Jews established all the way back through the archetype of Cain and Abel—to Jesus offering His own body represents a massive cultural leap. Christianity took a Jewish foundation but transformed it through a Hellenistic and Mediterranean mindset, where concepts of a dying-and-rising god already existed (such as Ptah-Sokar-Osiris or Dionysus). Jesus offers Himself in a brand-new way; this evolution of the concept of sacrifice is a historical fact, not a reason to deny Jesus.
Let me ask you all a direct question: Are you going to deny me, just as people denied Jesus? If I tell you that I AM Adam—the very first to understand God—will you reject that truth simply because it doesn’t fit your traditional boxes, just like they rejected Him?
When an infant nurses on its mother’s milk, does it have an awareness of that milk, or do you think it believes it is consuming the mother herself? In Christianity, we do not have a concept of eating Jesus’s literal flesh [meaning meat, raw or burnt]; rather, our concept is bread of life [and wine]—alluding to Melchizedek, who had neither father nor mother! Why bread? Because of the yeast, for we have no better parable for the resurrection… [if you have 1, give it to us]
When Jesus says that rivers of living water will flow from within the body of whoever believes in Him, that too is a parable. It is not literal water, just as the Eucharist is not literal cannibalism. It is a spiritual reality expressed through earthly symbols.
2. The Creation of SerapisSerapis was created by the Greek Pharaohs of Egypt to bridge two cultures. He was primarily a mix of Osiris (Egyptian god of the underworld) and Apis (the sacred bull). Because the Greeks already viewed Osiris as Dionysus, the new Serapis automatically absorbed Dionysian traits, including joy, resurrection, and benevolence. [** you do not have permission to see this link **]
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