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The second coming
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Jarek

936 Posts
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21
April 4, 2024 - 9:00 am

Jesus as a King
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Robert
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22
April 4, 2024 - 1:16 pm
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Steefen
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April 5, 2024 - 1:53 am

I think the dying and resurrecting savior is an advancement in Jewish Apocalypticism as mentioned earlier when Jews asked why are our messiahs being killed?

Did Jesus go show himself to Temple authorities. the Sanhedrin, and the priests?
Luke 17:14 like he told the lepers to go show themselves to the priests.

Just as Simon of Perea continued to decompose outside of a tomb, Jesus died and there was no living, no showing up, no sign on the third day.

To this day, Jesus is still called Christ. There is no reason for Simon of Perea’s followers to not continue to call him Christ.

Was Gabriel’s Revelation a tombstone? Was it prepared before Day 3 and never changed when nothing happened on Day 3?

Simon still died for his followers. Why should they not continue to be grateful for the leadership he showed?

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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24
April 21, 2024 - 12:12 am

Wikipedia’s entry for Israel Knohl:

Knohl is best known for his theory that Jewish culture contained a myth about a messiah who rose from the dead in the days before Jesus of Nazareth.[3]

[3]: Schäfer, Peter (2011-02-21). The Origins of Jewish Mysticism. Princeton University Press. pp. 151–. ISBN 9780691142159. Retrieved 28 July 2012.

Menahem the Essene might be the reference or is the reference Knohl is making (not Simon of Perea).

The myth of a messiah who rose from the dead is sourced not from Gabriel’s Revelation but from the Dead Sea Scrolls’ Self-Glorification hymn. (Knohl supports that assertion with his Gabriel’s Revelation work.)

Peter Schäfer also writes about the Self-Glorification hymn in his book, Two God’s in Heaven.

Chapter 3 The Divinized Human in the Self-Glorification Hymn from Qumran

Abstract

This chapter focuses on the Self-Glorification Hymn from Qumran, which is among the many writings of the community that had withdrawn from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea and dedicated itself to apocalyptic fantasies of the end of days. The Hymn was written in the late Hasmonaean or early Herodian period, which is, the second half of the first century BCE. In it, an unidentified hero boasts that he was elevated among and even above the angels in heaven. The chapter describes the two parallel fragments of the hymn that take the superior, angel-like status of its author yet further. It analyzes the line, “Who is like me among the divine beings?” which is a rhetorical question that evidently means, “Who else is like me among the angels? Is there anyone else who is as elevated as I am among the angels or above them?”

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= = =

The books of Enoch also come to mind.

= = =

Wikipedia’s entry for Israel Knohl:
although his interpretation of the partially preserved Self-Glorification hymn upon which his theory relies is not universally accepted.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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25
April 21, 2024 - 12:18 am

So, to answer the original post, we can turn to Simon of Perea as a failed messiah and Gabirel’s Revelation, but Knohl is really pointing to Menahem, the Essene and the Self-Glorification Hymn from the DSS.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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26
April 21, 2024 - 12:21 am

So, rickgill, there were other failed apocalyptic messiahs and the belief in a messiah with a second coming (after death) persisted.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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27
April 21, 2024 - 12:39 am

FYI:
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Steefen
7786 Posts
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April 21, 2024 - 12:41 am

Messianic Hymns: A Self Glorified and Suffering Messiah in Essene Theology
Abstract
The messianic hymns date to the end of the reign of Herod, when the Christian messiah was born. The figure in the self glorification hymn is the messiah, but the first person account makes the author tantamount to God. Beside self glorification is a confession of enduring suffering, echoing the suffering servant of Isaiah. Servants of God in heaven were angels, on earth priests (kohanim), when faithful, living angels. About 50 Essene kohanim lived in the Essene quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD. Celibate, they had stricter purity laws than those of Jerusalem Temple priests. Essenes were faithful servants who had suffered wrongly, and the suffering servant could be an Essene interpolation specifically of the experience of an Essene leader about thirty years before the crucifixion. These hymns suggest that the Qumran community had identified the Jewish messiah with God and with the suffering servant before the Christian churches had done. The church reflected already existing Essene theology.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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29
April 21, 2024 - 12:45 am

The Jesus of the gospels is DERIVATIVE.

Sarcasm:
Oh, no, Jesus was not an Essene
(but important wealth is taken from them).

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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30
April 21, 2024 - 12:49 am

FINALLY, translations of the Self-Glorification Hymn fragments:

Answering Islam Blog
PRE-CHRISTIAN EXEGESIS OF ISAIAH 52:13-53:12

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