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What does "Ἀναβαίνω" imply in John 20:17?
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greenfish888

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May 6, 2020 - 11:04 am

I am having trouble understanding why Jesus told Mary to inform his Disciples of his ascension but then visits them himself, moreover he was still hanging around eight days later to see Thomas. He also told them repeatedly previously and the ultimately understood that he would go to the Father (see John 16:28-33). He told them that the Holy Spirit would come when he left, yet they receive the Holy Spirit from him directly. 

What does Ἀναβαίνω imply? Does it indicate that he was ascending pretty soon, or does it leave room for him to hang around for eight more days? After all, he was no longer in the world but to the father he was ἔρχομαι three days before his resurrection. 

Thank you!

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Robert
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May 6, 2020 - 1:20 pm
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Judith

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May 6, 2020 - 1:33 pm

Through Dr. Ehrman’s blog, debates, The Forum and books you will have answers! As a long-time blog member, so many of my questions have been answered. There are those here who can provide better explanations. I’m just saying (IMHO) you are in the right place here.

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greenfish888

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May 7, 2020 - 1:13 am

Robert said
Ἀναβαίνω can just have an ordinary sense of ‘to go up,’ eg, to go up a mountain or go up to Jerusalem, etc. It certainly has this ordinary sense in the gospel of John, but there are a couple of uses in John that seem to imply another, more unique sense in which it seems to make reference to Jesus’ special heavenly status to which he will return by way of ascent (1,51 6,62). I think it’s usage in 20,17 has a similar meaning about Jesus’ heavenly exaltation. I suspect the reference to Mary Magdalene having seen the risen prior to this ascent may merely point to her highly privileged status to be the first to encounter Jesus after his resurrection but before his ascent. The appearances to the disciples after that may be somewhat different, ie, the heavenly Jesus appearing in the room despite their being locked doors (20,19.26). It is at this later time that Jesus breathes on them the holy spirit, ‘though I am not sure ‘John’ considers the ‘paraclete’ discussed previously in the gospel to be identical to the ‘holy spirit’ mentioned here.   

So could Jesus have ascended and then returned to the World to encounter his Disciples? I read that Ἀναβαίνω is present indicative active. Would this mean Jesus did ascend after seeing Mary?

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Robert
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May 7, 2020 - 6:59 am
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Stephen
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May 7, 2020 - 8:17 am

One of my interests is ancient cosmology, so this question.  Can we tell from the usage here whether or not conceptually we are still in the ancient three-tiered universe with a flat earth covered by the firmament and the heavenlies above it?  Jesus would ascend in the most literal fashion. At some point Prof Ehrman indicated he thought the NT writers would have been aware of the concept of earth as a sphere which would have been several centuries old by the time of the composition of the NT.

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Robert
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May 7, 2020 - 8:23 am
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Stephen
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May 7, 2020 - 1:56 pm

But I do suspect the author may be imagining a theological difference in the types of encounters that Mary and the other disciples had, but that is difficult to characterize.

I’ve been hanging out around Prof Ehrman too long.  My first thought is different textual sources.

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Robert
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May 7, 2020 - 2:20 pm
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greenfish888

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May 7, 2020 - 8:00 pm

Robert said
I don’t know. But I do suspect the author may be imagining a theological difference in the types of encounters that Mary and the other disciples had, but that is difficult to characterize. Note the differences:

John 20,17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

John 20,25.27-28 … “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.” … “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 

John’s primary intended difference has to do with the nature of belief, but there is also something more difficult to characterize. Not so much the ‘not touching’ vs ‘touching’, but perhaps more importantly note the change from Jesus speaking of ‘my God and your God’ and Thomas speaking to Jesus as ‘my Lord and my God’. Perhaps this may have something to do with a change in status that the author imagined took place with Jesus’ ascent to his heavenly status.  

This is a really good answer, I never thought about the my god your god and my lord and god thing. As for Jesus leaving Mary as a human and coming to Thomas spiritual, that is something I considered but was not sure. As I think you have said, the author spliced sources together so this encounter I take it does not necessarily have to be true. Why I doubted myself when I considered the understanding you propose (that Jesus ascended human and descended with a change in status) is that I noticed a discrepancy. In John 14:2-3 and especially John 16:16-22 it almost certainly clear that Jesus expected to see his disciples again in the next world, or to bring them there. In John 17:24 he prays for this encounter also. So yes, if I’m correcting in saying, it could be the author just trying to make a theological point (Jesus Mary a servant of God and came to Thomas as a higher status entity)… On the other hand “As the Father has sent me” (John 20:21) sounds like he’s still the servant, who shares the same father as everyone else. Nevertheless, we could debate this topic and never be certain.

Definitely the most intriguing book of the new testament!!

 

Thank you for your response! 

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