Bart: The Book of Revelation and the END. Starting at the Beginning, July 6, 2021
The Book of Revelation is given by God through Jesus and his angel to his servant John.
The audience for this book is Christians of the seven churches in Asia Minor.
Steefen
(present-day Turkey)
1) Ephesus
2) Smyrna
3) Pergamum
4) Thyatira
5) Sardis
6) Philadelphia
7) Laodicea
No, the cities of the Colossians (as per the Epistle of Paul to Philemon, not Colossians) ,Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Romans, Thessalonians are not on this list. Who founded the churches in the Book of Revelation, written sometime around 96 CE in Asia Minor.
The post-War literature is still being written from AD 70 to AD 96.
Bart
Christ tells John to write what is to take place–Jesus’ vision of the end of time (chapters 4-22).
Steefen
Hero history: Jesus is telling the future again.
Bart
The one who can break the seven seals on the scroll is the Lion from the tribe of Judah who appears not as a lion but as a lamb standing as if it had been slaughtered.
Steefen
Bart explains 14 calamities happen. The end comes with the destruction of the Whore of Babylon. Wait, the Whore of Babylon is destroyed but forces of hers survive for a battle with Jesus. How operatic: coming back to life to fight again just to die again.
Babylon’s Whore has a Beast who has a false prophet. They are thrown into a lake of burning sulfur to be tormented forever.
Meanwhile, Satan is imprisoned in a bottomless pit. After a thousand years the Devil emerges and leads astray some nations. What is this? Is it the year 1096?
The crusaders first gathered in Constantinople in fall 1096. They besieged Nicaea while Kilij Arslan was away (the city surrendered to Alexius), and later defeated an army commanded by Kilij Arslan at Dorlyaeum.
In 1096, all persons are raised from the dead and are rewarded for their deeds.
Okay, we have Paul’s eschatology (continued). Paul left us gathered in mid-air with the dead to meet Christ. John takes us from being suspended in mid air to an eternal Kingdom. Where is this Kingdom? Is it on earth or is it in Heaven? From Heaven, a new Jerusalem descends from heaven. It has streets of gold. The good and the righteous will dwell here forever. Is there a difference between the eternal Kingdom and the New Jerusalem? Does the eternal Kingdom transform into the New Jerusalem?
jonas
** you do not have permission to see this link ** speaks of those who have been martyred for the truth and beg the Lamb to avenge their blood. Whom do you think this refers to?
Bart/BDEhrman
For about 30 years or so now scholars have argued that the author is addressing a *perceived* problem that may not have literally existed, of extensive martyrdoms of Xns. Nero did have some executed, in grisly ways, but other than that, we don’t have much evidence of it happening.
The issue is definitely not whether CHristians were sometimes persecuted. The issue is whether they were *widely* persecuted, let alone martryed, atthe end of the 1st century. It appears the answer is no.
Steefen
14 calamities happen (with each broken seal of seven seals, a major catastrophe and further devastation with each of the seven angels with a trumpet). The end comes with the destruction of the Whore of Babylon.
Babylon’s Whore has a Beast who has a false prophet, all of whom are done away with forever.
Satan is imprisoned. After a thousand years of Christ and saints ruling on earth, the Devil emerges and leads astray some nations. A final judgment, then a new Jerusalem.
BDEhrman
All of this is to start happening soon [around the year 96 CE, about the time Revelation was written].
Steefen
All of this is different, more fantastical from Jesus’s Apocalypse in the Gospels (Tribulation w/ Jerusalem surrounded by armies and the destruction of the Temple, followed by the Son of Man coming in his glory…).
Should a Christian just go with the End of the World by the gospels instead of the End of the World by Revelation–just go with what the biblical earthly Jesus said?
You say the author expects all of this to start happening soon, 14 devastations, a thousand years, then an eternal New Jerusalem. The clock hasn’t started ticking because we cannot find the 14 devastations, right?
Bart: Does Revelation Contain an Eyewitness Account of the Eruption of Mount Vesuvius? Guest Post by James Tabor, 7/15/2021
Bennett
While parts of this passage certainly bring up visions of the eruption and destruction of Pompeii and Herculaneum, for this to be an actual description of the event would require an equivalence of Rome and Naples. I find that difficult, since the two are separated by quite some distance. True, Naples would have been a ‘gateway’ port to Rome, but is there any other documentation where Naples and Rome are equated as the same place? Or perhaps you are suggesting that the observer of the Vesuvius event is imagining the same thing happening to Rome.
JDTabor
More or less…maybe both. But watching it from the sea…just to the south, see Pliny’s eyewitness account. Precursor of things to come.
Reference:
The Book of Revelation was written sometime around 96 CE in Asia Minor. The author was probably a Christian from Ephesus known as “John the Elder.” According to the Book, this John was on the island of Patmos, not far from the coast of Asia Minor, “because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus” (Rev. 1.10).
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy (the case for Christ is appealed, evidence that demands a verdict, a new verdict)
Turkey is on the east side of Greece, Italy is on the west side of Greece. John, on the east side of Greece was able to see the eruption of Vesuvius? If yes, to what extent? SIMPLER: how did the writer of Revelation become an eyewitness of the eruption of Vesuvius(?) 1) by staying in present-day Turkey, or 2) had he traveled closer to Naples?
p/u at Bart: The Historical Background to the Book of Revelation, 7/17/21
Bart
In the Gospel of John there is virtually no concern for the coming end of the age (contrast the Synoptics, with their proclamation of the imminent arrival of the Son of Man).
The prophet sees twenty-four elders around the throne of God (chap. 4). Most interpreters understand these figures to represent the twelve Jewish Patriarchs and the twelve apostles of Jesus (cf. 21:12, 14).
Most investigators think that parts of the book were written during the sixties of the Common Era, soon after the persecution of the Christians under Nero.
If one begins counting with Julius Caesar, Nero happens to have been the sixth ruler of Rome. He was also one of the author’s chief enemies. The book was evidently not completed, however, until some thirty years or so later, probably around 95 CE during the reign of Domitian.
p/u at
Bart: Is the Book of Revelation a Revised Version of a Non-Christian Apocalypse? Guest Post by James Tabor
Steefen
Bart,
The four animals (living beasts) are the four gospels?
If Revelation was written over the span from say AD 67 to AD 95, the author of Revelation would have to know about the fourth gospel, written between 85 and 90, giving him only a few months or years to realize, all the way over in Asia Minor (Turkey) east of Greece, there would be a fourth gospel.
Other than the four animals (living beasts) being the four gospels, what else can they be? You think they are the four gospels?
Bart: Is the Book of Revelation a Revised Version of a Non-Christian Apocalypse? Guest Post by James Tabor (7/20/21)
Other scholars have suggested Revelation started out as a Jewish text that was later “Christianized” by an editor who produced the version we have today. Here, James embraces that view and mounts an argument for it. See what you think!
James Tabor
One thing I had noticed in my own work on the book of Revelation over the years was that the explicit references to either “Jesus” “Christ,” or “Jesus Christ” outside the letters to the churches of chapters 2 & 3, are mostly clustered in chapters 1 and 22, with few in the middle chapters.
But what is even more astounding, to me at least, was the observation that nearly all of these references can be easily removed without detracting in any way from the structure or flow of the passages in which they occur. In other words, one could get the distinct impression that references to Jesus Christ lay quite lightly on the text and could even be seen as secondary interpolations.
= = =
Reference: Revelation, chapter 11, verse 15
Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.”
James Tabor
Since ** you do not have permission to see this link ** appears to be a clear reference to the city of Jerusalem, not Rome, as “Sodom and Egypt,” an entirely different line of interpretation opens up. The perspective of the authors of this primitive Ur-text of the Apocalypse is a radical disenfranchisement from the authority structures of pre-70 CE Roman destruction Jerusalem, whom they consider agents of the “Beast.”
Steefen
The authority structure of pre-70 CE was still the Roman Empire, even if not the generals Vespasian and Titus. Why are you not dating this Ur-text before the Roman Empire supported Herod the Great, then?
James Tabor
The Ur-text of Revelation is most likely composed against the backdrop of local events in Judea in the 40s and 50s CE–and has little to do with Rome and its emperors.
Steefen
Some of the Roman governors over Judea in the 50s and 60s were terrible producing conditions deserving an end/apocalypse (judgment followed by righteousness). Date it then?
Bart: My New View of the Book of Revelation, 8/5/2021
I have come to realize that I do not revere, respect, or even like this book any more.
There are other problems with Revelation and I’ll be discussing them, as I try to figure out how to write about it without offending huge swathes of the population, readers I would like to address rather than simply enrage.
My view of Revelation is that its ruthless, vengeful God who destroys the majority of the human race stands in sharp contrast with the God of Jesus. I think I can demonstrate that.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
The gospels were not as anti-Roman as the Book of Revelation is. I mentioned earlier that I keep to the Jewish Apocalypticism of Jesus (Tribulation in Judea followed by an unrealized Son of Man-led Kingdom of God/Heaven/Righteousness–unless the Son of Man actually is references Gaius, a caesar).
Dr. Ehrman,
Is Revelation an example of Jewish Apocalypticism?
James Tabor removed the references to Jesus and seemed to make it an example of Jewish Apocalypticism. Would you agree that was the original version of Revelation?
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Dr. Ehrman,
Is Revelation an example of Jewish Apocalypticism?
James Tabor removed the references to Jesus and seemed to make it an example of Jewish Apocalypticism. Would you agree that was the original version of Revelation?
Dr. Bart Ehrman
Yes, Revelation does owe a good deal to Jewish apocalyptic thought.
I don’t know if it is Jewish apocalypticism because I”m not sure if the author was Jewish. But no, I think the book was produced from the outset by a follower of Jesus.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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Bart: Does Revelation Contain an Eyewitness Account of the Eruption of Mount Vesuvius? Guest Post by James Tabor, 7/15/2021