Dr. Ehrman
Wealthy people have come into the congregations and caused problems, both by their very presence (the problem of favoritism; 2:1-5) and by their actions (dragging the poor into court; 2:6). That rich members of the community formed a sizeable minority is evident from the charge of 5:1-6. And how early in the history of the Christian communities could this have been a problem? Surely not in the first decades.
Steefen
Your comment above can easily be interpreted to mean, surely, there were no rich members in the first decades of Jesus’ ministry. That would be incorrect. There were rich people who paid attention to John the Baptist and followed him to his baptisms. The Pharisees who addressed were not poor. There were rich people who paid attention to Jesus and Jesus addressed them. Mary, Martha, and Lazarus likely were not poor. Nicodemus likely was not poor. The Roman centurion likely was not poor. Joseph of Arimathea likely was not poor. Stephen and the Hellenists like were not poor. Priscilla and Aquila could have been as rich as Paul. How poor would Ananias and Sapphira have been? What would Queen Helena and Prince Izaates have against John the Baptist, Jesus, or James that they would not have been supportive?
1) You are saying in the early decades, there was no minority of rich people sympathetic to John the Baptist, Jesus, and James?
2) Are you also saying the Qumran Community could not read or write? Are you saying there is no connection between the Qumran Community and James the Just?
Does the Book/Epistle of James Have the Same Concerns as the Historical James?
Dr. Ehrman
James did not write the Epistle.
The Epistle was written after James died.
The Epistle has Hellenized language.
The Epistle does not address aspects of the Law that James championed.
Steefen
Neither Jesus nor his disciples wrote the gospels.
We do not say the gospels do not have the same concerns as the historical Jesus.
The Epistle of James was not written by James but was written by someone with a Hellenistic education.
Well, if Stephen, one of the Hellenists gave his life for James’ brother, the remaining six Hellenist leaders could have been supportive of James.
After James died and Paul’s position that faith in the blood of Jesus trumps the Law, the Oral Tradition of James kept by the Hellenist followers surviving Stephen could have focused on this specific challenge to the Law without a comprehensive position paper on James’ view of the Law.
Conclusion: That James did not write the Epistle of James and that the major Torah values of James do not appear in James does not create a line of reason that Hellenists who kept his oral tradition could not have written one letter against Paul’s position that faith in the blood of Jesus trumps any general acts of observance of Law.
1. We can agree that James did not write the letter.
2. We can agree that there are Hellenistic touches in the letter.
3. We can agree that the Letter of James is not a comprehensive position paper on James’ view of the Law.
That does not mean James agreed with Paul [as you communicate: his interests were the same as Paul’s] who was pretty much run out of town by orthodox Jews and chose to run into the arms of the Roman Emperor.
Are you saying James was unaware of Paul’s position of faith in the blood of Jesus was more important than Law?
Steefen
You are saying in the early decades, there was no minority of rich people sympathetic to John the Baptist, Jesus, and James?
Dr. Bart Ehrman
The followers of John the Baptist, Jesus, and James were entirely from the lower classes.
Steefen
Are you also saying the Qumran Community could not read or write?
Dr. Bart Ehrman
No, there were certainly literate people in the Qumran community.
Steefen
Are you saying there is no connection between the Qumran Community and James the Just?
Dr. Bart Ehrman
There is no evidence of any connection of James with Qumran.
Steefen
Josephus reports four main sects or schools of Judaism: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots. The Qumran community would be Essenes and/or Zealots. James would be a member of the non-violent Essenes and/or Zealots who were well aware of the War Scroll.
Given the four main sects or schools of Judaism, where are you placing James?
John the Baptist
Matthew 3: 5 – 7
At that time, Jerusalem, all Judea, and the whole region around the Jordan
were going out to him
and were being baptized by him in the Jordan River
as they acknowledged their sins.
When he saw man of the Pharisees and Sadducees
coming to his baptism, he said to them,
You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee
from the coming wrath?
= = =
As they were going off, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John, “What did you go out to the desert to see? … Why did you go out? To see a prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written: “Behold, I am sending my messenger ahead of you; he will prepare your way before you.”
Matthew 11: 7-10
Amen, I say to you, among those born of women, there has been one greater than John the Baptist … All the prophets and the law prophesied up to the time of John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is to come. Whoever has ears ought to hear. Matthew 11: 11, 13-15
= = =
Matthew 14: 1-2 Herard the tetrarch held that Jesus was John the Baptist raised from the dead.
Herod the tetrarch held both John the Baptist and Jesus in high esteem which is an admission he was aware of the worthiness of their missions, they were worthy of being followed at least to follow public opinion.
Matthew 14: 5 Herod the tetrarch feared the people regarded him as a prophet, not just poor people.
= = =
Matthew 8: 18-19 A scribe approached Jesus, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” // Scribes were not poor. Tax collectors were not poor.
= = =
The Seven Hellenists is found at Chapter 6 of Acts.
= = =
Matthias was the successor of Judas (Acts 2: 23-26).
Steefen said
Steefen
You are saying in the early decades, there was no minority of rich people sympathetic to John the Baptist, Jesus, and James?Dr. Bart Ehrman
The followers of John the Baptist, Jesus, and James were entirely from the lower classes.Steefen
Are you also saying the Qumran Community could not read or write?Dr. Bart Ehrman
No, there were certainly literate people in the Qumran community.Steefen
Are you saying there is no connection between the Qumran Community and James the Just?Dr. Bart Ehrman
There is no evidence of any connection of James with Qumran.Steefen
Josephus reports four main sects or schools of Judaism: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots. The Qumran community would be Essenes and/or Zealots. James would be a member of the non-violent Essenes and/or Zealots who were well aware of the War Scroll.Given the four main sects or schools of Judaism, where are you placing James?
Bart:
The vast majority of Jews didn’t belong to any of these sects. They are not like Christian denominations, where most Chrsitains belong to one or another. They are more like the Rotary Club, Kiwanis, and the Jerusalem Garden Club….
Steefen
Correct, the vast majority of Jews were followers of Judaism, observant Jews.
James rose above the followers. He was an exemplar. Before him, John the Baptist was an exemplar. The gospels put forward that Jesus was an exemplar. All three can be charted into one of the four categories of the population of All Followers of Judaism. Some followers agreed with the philosophy of the Sadducees, some followers agreed with the Pharisees (House of Hillel or House of Shammai), some followers agreed with the Essenes, and some agreed with the Sicarri/Zealots, with overlap.
Even if John the Baptist, Jesus, and James are charted close with or close to the the Essenes, they were Jewish purists and to a certain extent zealots.
As time moved from 30 CE to 66 CE, the political positions were reduced to two: 1) for the Jewish Revolt against Rome and 2) against the Jewish Revolt with the former position pulling in messianic and apocalyptic movements.
Queen Helena, far from being poor, can also be charted as a Jewish convert who was a purist. Given the royal line after her, their zealousness not only helped with famine relief but also supported the Jewish revolt.
Because their were rich people who followed the beliefs of the Sadducees, the Pharisaic Schools, the Essenes, and Zealots, it would be incorrect to say there were no followers or sympathizers of John the Baptist, Jesus, and James, together or individually who were rich.
Jesus had a message for the lost sheep (poor and rich).
You say rich people became present in the second generation of Christianity but say rich people were not part of the first generation of Christianity:
Wealthy people have come into the congregations and caused problems, both by their very presence (the problem of favoritism; 2:1-5) and by their actions (dragging the poor into court; 2:6). That rich members of the community formed a sizeable minority is evident from the charge of 5:1-6. And how early in the history of the Christian communities could this have been a problem? Surely not in the first decades.
Early in the history of the Christian community, Mary, Martha, Lazarus, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, the rich man who wanted to follow Jesus give more evidence that wealthy people were sympathizers, beneficiaries, and followers of Jesus than the absence of problem with wealthy people is proof that Jesus had none.
What verse (excluding the First Apocalypse of James) best shows James apocalyptic?
The Qumran community would have become aware of the communities of John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, and Paul.
Was Jesus doing things with which the Essenes did not agree to the extent a diplomatic envoy would have been sent to Jesus and his disciples–or was Jesus and his disciples called in before the Essenes?
While Jesus was making a name for himself with his Son of Man ministry, James was occupied with his own vocational development. James did not make a name for himself being the leader of the Jerusalem church but he was an authority figure in his own religious right, respected by Peter’s Jerusalem church. James became a resource of the Peter’s Jerusalem church, for the Jerusalem church was tradition oriented without the freedoms of Paul.
The answer seems to be Jesus was not doing anything for which the community of his brother would have brought him in for correction. Still, James did not join his brother in empire-building. James, likely was a member of a different institution/community, with its own prestige and hierarchy.
The Jerusalem church of Jesus does not diplomatically come in contact with James’ circle the way the community of Paul came in contact for correction with James.
You bring up Rotary Club and Kiwanis service communities. Jesus and James had their own communities and Peter could appeal to the unique authority and prestige of the non-offshoot Essene community of James. “Not a letter of the Law would be changed,” so, if Peter needed more gravitas, he could appeal to either the Essene community at large or tap the personal connection of Jesus to the larger figurehead of that related community.
James was not an administrative leader of the Jerusalem church but a dotted line authority figure within a tradition that did not have a Son of Man Movement offshoot. The New Testament has no formal speech where James addresses the disciples of his brother where he thanks the disciples for carrying on the ministry of his brother and where he is honored to lend his prestige to his brother’s community.
James does not seem to pickup 1) the miracle working of Jesus or 2) Wicked Tenant and Tribulation for Jerusalem motifs (dominant ideas) of Jesus.
If you do not agree, how do you see James as more than an authority figure of a similar holy community, with a personal family connection to Jesus and a shared interest in orthodoxy to which Peter’s Jerusalem Church could appeal?
Steefen,
Do you remember some time ago (years perhaps!) you were offended by something I said and let me know you were removing me from those here with whom you were responding to? Is there some method on The Forum that a person whose comments are bothersome can be blocked from your view? I would appreciate your letting me know. Thanks.
Judith said
Steefen,Do you remember some time ago (years perhaps!) you were offended by something I said and let me know you were removing me from those here with whom you were responding to? Is there some method on The Forum that a person whose comments are bothersome can be blocked from your view? I would appreciate your letting me know. Thanks.
The website’s method is not satisfactory, so I cannot recommend it.
Bart
I”m not at all sure that the small community around Jesus in Galilee would have been known by groups of Jews in Judea. In fact, I highly doubt it.
Steefen
Well, Jesus was known by one group of Jews in Judea that got him killed. Is there some objection you would like to raise about that, also?
Bart
I suppose the problem is that there is no evidence that Jesus had any contact with (or even knew about) the Essenes.
Steefen
With the Jesus-Pharisees and scribes exchanges, Jesus would have done himself well to find a less hostile audience. Second, given Jesus’ belief in angels and the Essene’s belief in bathing/baptism as to not contaminate angels sent to help them, they sure had enough in common for a mutually beneficial dialogue.
Reference Jesus saying
Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
Matthew 26: 53
Judith said
Where is it?
Steefen, some on The Forum need to know how to do this so please set it out in very simple steps for us. Thanks.
Click Profile under the picture at the top of the page; it is the fourth of five boxes:
Members, Subscribed, Inbox, Profile, Logout
Click Buddies and Adversaries tab
Click Manage Adversaries
Type in the profile name/s
Adversaries are users that you want to ignore. Posts by these users will be hidden from you. You will not be able to send them a private message and they cannot send a private message to you. Please note that you cannot set moderators or administrators as adversaries.
Try NOT clicking on the “Hide posts from my adversaries” checkbox. I thought that would keep an adversary out of my business completely but that probably decreased the utility of the boards for me.
I currently do not have any profiles on my Adversaries list. I might join you and try using it again for people who bring down the quality of the forums.
Steefen,
Thank you! This is invaluable to me. Although I’ve come to understand whoever is healthy and generally happy about life doesn’t need to make himself (herself) feel better by bringing others down. So, unkind, rude comments do not bother me. For those who do not see it that way, the Adversary List might be helpful! Appreciate it.
Unfortunately “Adversary” quickly becomes “anyone who disagrees with me”. I advocate another perspective. Consciously and deliberately seek out contrary opinions. Our sensory apparatus both accepts and screens out incoming signals. By seeking out opposition you increase the chance that some signal you’re automatically screening out might reach you. Surrounding yourself by people who always agree with you is blinding. Which of course explains much about social media. It is full of people blinded by agreement.
Stephen said
Unfortunately “Adversary” quickly becomes “anyone who disagrees with me”. I advocate another perspective. Consciously and deliberately seek out contrary opinions. Our sensory apparatus both accepts and screens out incoming signals. By seeking out opposition you increase the chance that some signal you’re automatically screening out might reach you. Surrounding yourself by people who always agree with you is blinding. Which of course explains much about social media. It is full of people blinded by agreement.
Stephen,
I wanted to know how to go about using the adversary list for blocking those who are too offensive to want to be involved with here. The Forum is good and often what I’m reading from all of you is most interesting. How to keep it good is a concern. So, there’s the adversary list method!
Thanks for posting info on how to put someone on your Adversary list. Personally, I would only put someone on that list if they used offensive, demeaning or hateful language. (Unfortunately, I have found that that occurs rarely but occasionally on the site). I would never put someone on because they disagreed with me, even if they disagreed with me vehemently.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert