I was just now looking through some old posts on the blog (there are lots of them! If you join, you have full access!), and came upon this one from almost exactly four years ago. It involves a question I get asked a lot by people who have left the faith or find themselves moving in that direction. It involves how my relationships with others changed as I went from being a very conservative evangelical Christian to becoming an agnostic/atheist.
My answer today would be the same….
QUESTION
Would you be willing to elaborate on how your changing views affected your relationships with friends and family and how people reacted to your changing perspective? Thanks so much!
RESPONSE
As it turns out, in my case, the biggest “problem” for my relationships with family and friends was not so much when I became an agnostic, over twenty years ago now, but when I left the evangelical beliefs I had held as a young adult to become a “liberal” Christian with critical views of the Bible, the historical Jesus, and the development of early Christian theology.
For some years, from the time I had become a “born-again” Christian when I was fifteen up through the years I was at Moody Bible Institute and then Wheaton College, and even my first year in a Masters of Divinity program, I had been a gung-ho and rather outspoken advocate of the absolute truth and infallibility of the Bible, and of the traditional doctrines of the Christian faith – the literal Virgin birth of Jesus, the absolute historicity of all the events narrated in the Bible (both Old Testament and New Testament), the actual, physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead, and so on.
I believed that all these things could be actually proved, and I spent tons of time talking to my friends and families about them – either directly about them or indirectly, when talking about other things but these views were assumed. They were very much a part of who I was, and it was what people expected of me in their own understandings of who I was.
Because of my studies at the graduate level, starting with my MDiv at Princeton Theological Seminary, I started to change my views. I did so very reluctantly; I fought hard against the new insights I was being handed in my biblical studies classes. Some of my professors (rightly) thought I was a real pain in the backside, with my conservative views that I clung to rather tenaciously. But over time, the more and more I learned, the less and less I could remain convinced that my views were actually right.
I would say the definitive turn probably started in my junior (second) year in my master’s program, as I came to realize that – despite what I wanted to think – the Bible really did have problems. I started seeing discrepancies that had simply escaped my attention for all the years before, places where one passage contradicted another, where there were almost certainly historical mistakes, or geographical errors, and so on. At first I concluded that such problems affected only the small details of the text. But over the course of a year or two, I started seeing that they affected very big things indeed.
Anyone can see these kinds of problem for themselves and doesn’t need to take anyone else’s word for it. This past week (some 37 years later for me personally) I had my undergraduate students do a detailed comparison of the three accounts of Jesus’ resurrection in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, noting all the similarities and differences and seeing if there was a way to explain the differences. The differences are all over the map: who goes to Jesus’ tomb? How many women were there and what were their names? Was the stone rolled away before they got there or after they arrived? What did they see there? What were they told there? Did they do what they were told or not? Which of the disciples saw Jesus, if any? And when? And where? And on and on.
These might seem, on the surface, just to be detail issues that don’t matter. But there are some real, and serious, contradictions. I would challenge anyone to explain to me how Luke can be right that the disciples saw Jesus in Jerusalem on the day of his resurrection and were told not to leave Jerusalem and never did leave Jerusalem until long after Jesus ascended to heaven forty days later, if Matthew is right that the disciples were told to leave Jerusalem to meet Jesus (some hundred miles north) in Galilee and they did leave Jerusalem right away and did see Jesus only in Galilee. Did they stay in town the whole time or not? I don’t see how it can be both.
When I started (back 37 years ago now) seeing these kinds of problems, I wanted to talk about them, just as earlier I had wanted to talk about how the Bible had no mistakes of any kind. But the people I had to talk *to* were my friends and family, almost of whom agreed with my *older* views (in many instances because I had convinced them!). But now I was contradicting those views. Rather forcefully and (I’m sorry to say) with a bit of triumphant pride (NOW, I had found the truth!)
This created a rift in a number of my relationships. Especially with church people that I used to associate with and with some family members, who couldn’t understand why I was “leaving the faith.” I eventually realized that I simply couldn’t keep going to the same church any more. I wasn’t comfortable; the people there – whom I very much liked – weren’t comfortable. And so I had to go. I didn’t actually leave off from church: I simply went to a more liberal one. But the older friendships disappeared. As did my friendships from college.
With family it was harder. You can’t quit your family and just join a new one. There were some truly awful conversations and disagreements – that lasted for years. Eventually we got to a point where we simply didn’t talk religion any more. That seems to make everyone happy, and we just get on with our own lives.
My view now is that there is no reason to try to convince a loved one of your personal religious views. What’s the point? There are so many other things to be interested in, to care about, to be passionate about, to share in common, to experience together – without talking about whether it is creation or the Big Bang; Adam and Eve or evolution; the inerrancy or errancy of the Bible; the physical resurrection of Jesus or later legend; and so on.
So with my (original nuclear) family, we simply don’t go there. It is more important to build up loving relations than it is to brow-beat someone into agreeing with you about religion so that you will see eye to eye even on matters that are really important to you. I have a new set of friends, who are just as great as the old ones, and with whom I have masses in common. And so life is really good, and I’m very glad indeed that I made the transition. But it was tough sledding at the time.
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Thank you for this. The conversations I’ve had to have as a result of my own “deconstruction” or whatever you want to call it have been heavy. We have some family that has been extremely supportive while one in particular has called us all sorts of terrible names and refuses to respect our boundaries. I’m not sure that relationship will ever be fully mended.
When I preached in the pulpit and told everyone the things they already knew and agreed with, I was praised for my insights. The moment, though, that I began to ask questions – I was literally cast out, unfriended, ghosted, etc.
I didn’t really notice it when I was “inside”, but the need within Evangelicalism to be right and to cast out anyone who dares question is truly alarming.
A follow up question would be, how did you navigate through the emotional aspects of dealing with all that comes with changing your thoughts on these things? Did you pursue any counseling to help you navigate those losses of relationships? Everyone deals with that sort of stuff differently, just wondering what it looked like for you.
Others have asked me about that; maybe I should post on it. Short answer: I didn’t get counseling. Just hacked through it on my own. But it was in teh context of others who were theologically trained and sympathetic, so I was in a different kind of situation from most.
I think you’ve developed amazing strength and affability to navigate the Fundamentalist world peacefully.
It’s likely one of the top things I’m learning from you.
I navigate the world peacefully. I also don’t bring up my views often IRL — but with everybody.
I just have not found people who have had my synchronicities.
example for the interested: I asked for a sign from an obscure “channeled angel”:
I was without food all day bc lost debit card — and phone! — the day before 24-hours-ish of international flying with layovers. Juice, no snack.
So, ask for sign.
I then miss my connection. bc a FA tells me to sit down unless my name is called (turns out that’s for standbys.)
Non-refundable.
Can’t fix by computer, it was so convoluted. ok, fixed. Why do I have a low seat number?
First-Class.
Supermeal!
I’m seated next to someone (2 seats/row) who asks me what I do. Usually I say freelancer (like the LAT) but this time bc of the miracle I say something I never say, channeler.
And he puts headphones on me. He happens to have a recording of that obscure channeled angel that I just asked for a sign from.
I hope you read my message, but you have helped me immensely in my life journey so far. I was indoctrinated heavily into the Jehovah’s Witness religion, (if you wanna call it that) growing up and decided to leave and I researched and researched till I found you, you’ve helped me leave it with ease and taken my mental burdens away, I’m no longer stressing out that the world is going to end etc. Your hard work, dedication to the field and thorough knowledge has really opened my eyes to the mistakes that humans make and how man has polluted Christianity’s true meaning, the meaning simply being, Love. That post you made about who gets salvation and who doesn’t a week or so ago about the parable of the Samaritan in the book of Luke, seemed (too me at least) very heartfelt and truly the message of Christ summed up succinctly and beautifully. To just love one another. I wish more people could know this and realise that love, unceasing agape love, is all we need to be, to display and just give. You’re making the world a better place I think. Keep up the fine work.
Thanks!
“I believed that all these things could be actually proved, and I spent tons of time talking to my friends and families about them”
An interesting thing about Christians is there are those like you who wanted to prove the Bible to everyone, and there were other Christians who accepted that the Bible was true but did not feel the need to talk about it with everyone. The people I grew up with in church were from the group who believed the Bible was true but did not evangelize the message…even though we were told to from the pulpit!
Faith transitions can be really rough on everyone. I can imagine how hard that was. I think many of us can relate.
You have been really successful in making scholarly material accessible. Do you think your time as an evangelical has helped you to be able to communicate and make scholarship on the New Testament accessible to regular people? Or is it more your personality and it wouldn’t have mattered if you had an evangelical background?
I think what really helped was as an evangelical leading Bible studies and youth group meetings with teenagers, realizing that if I wanted to reach them, I had to figure out *how*.
I’ve been thinking about the minimal facts approach. Apparently Mike Lacona and Gary Habermas went back to the mid-70s and dug through articles from then until late 2000s (when the work was completed) and looked* for what most people agreed to, be they secular or religious.
That’s a lot of work but it seems to me that it’s the wrong way to go about. If I want to know what people think now I determine the population I want to know about, put down exclusion and inclusion criteria, and send out a survey (and hope that people will answer it). But I’m not a historian or a scholar on the NT, so maybe I have the wrong idea. What do you think of the method?
* or maybe they had an idea about what minimal facts they wanted to push beforehand? I don’t know.
I’d say that often “what everyone agrees on” is not actually what everyone agrees on. (E.g., that Jesus was buried; that the tomb was found empty)
I really appreciate these posts; I process them in conjuction to similar struggles I face. I’m only skeptical about one point of yours, that you don’t have to talk about religion with your loved ones. The problem with religious people in general is that their faith permeates their perspective on pretty much everything. Just to give an example, think how faith has affected and shaped a lot of people’s perspectives in the whole vaccines thing. So, it’s nearly impossible not to do that. – I’ ll share something rather funny with you, Mr. Ehrman. My woman almost loathes you! She is a believer, and every since I discovered you and shared with her some of your insights from your work, she won’t even hear your voice, if I am to watch a clip of yours on YouTube or whatever! She would tell me to put my headphones on or something of that sort! If you were to meet her, you’d be floored by her grace and beauty and noble mannerisms – but because she feels her faith is at stake, she won’t treat your work objectively. Maybe too much information there, but I had to get it off my chest…
The trick, I think, is to realize that Dr. Ehrman is not really attacking religion in general, or Christianity in particular. It is only literal interpretation of a selective reading of the Bible, and assumptions of infallibility that are his targets. The chief problem comes for those who want a sense of absolute certainty, even if that sense is false and hollow, making it a very shaky foundation upon which to build a life or a world view. Accepting doubt can be uncomfortable, but it saves a lot of cognitive dissonance, ignoring inconsistencies and juggling tenuous suppositions to try to fill the gaps.
I find your story to have rough parallels to my own. I entered college eager to find evidence supporting the truth of the resurrection. My idea was to study science, especially physics, as well as the Bible to prove that the resurrection was possible and very likely happened. I had a very difficult discussion with my father in high school in which I used Paul’s listing of the witnesses to Jesus’ post death appearances to argue against his belief that Jesus wasn’t divine. I was very assertive and he refused to engage with me. I’m not sure why. I concluded that he didn’t have good evidence for his belief. My experience in college made me go my father one better as I came to reject God altogether which he never did. Your advice about family religion discussions is right on. It still bothers me, though how people, especially like my father, who I know are brilliant will still believe despite what seems to me as overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I feel what you are doing by getting the scholarship out there, is the best answer. Thanks.
There are clearly a lot of discrepancies in the Resurrection accounts. And the one you mention about Jesus appearing in Jerusalem vs Galilee is very damaging, maybe fatal. But would it be fatal only to the inerrancy of the Bible or also to the reality of the Resurrection? For example, couldn’t one of the accounts be substantially correct and the others seriously flawed?
I’m thinking also of your book “Jesus Before the Gospels.” I may not be using the term quite precisely but you say that the “gist” of many stories may be historical even if the details are incorrect. I want to apply that notion to the Resurrection so as not to eliminate consideration of any possibility of its historicity.
But maybe I’m confusing different concepts. You argue that the Resurrection is beyond the reach of historical science anyway and therefore cannot be established by it. And you also argue that, historically speaking, some of Jesus’s followers must have believed in the Resurrection. So is the answer to my original question that at least some discrepancies in the Resurrection accounts are fatal to Biblical inerrancy but not necessarily to the reality of the Resurrection?
My view is that that the fact that reports about an event are at odds has no bearing on whether it or something like it happened.
Now that you are an avowed Agnostic/Atheist, your old friends can just dismiss what you say out of hand anyway. You are now on the other side of the river. It was probably harder when you were just slipping away from the edge of the bank on their side (and they still had to listen just enough that they might yet “save” you).
Dr Ehrman, may I ask a somewhat contentious off topic question please? I’ve come across articles/books querying the ethnicity of North African Church fathers, such as Tertullian and Augustine. The implication is that they were black but are usually depicted in art as European, which the writers feel is depriving black people of high profile role models. Is this an issue that comes up in your classes and, if so, what is your response to it? Many thanks.
Yes, I think they were black, and no, I don’t recall lit coming up. But ethnicity in antiquity was very different from today, where we have been dragged down so far by “race theories” developed in teh 19th century that seem common sense to many people today.
Sorry to come back on this one Dr Ehrman but, on the basis of what we know now, if you had to cast the role of Tertullian in a 70s movie, would you pick Omar Sharif, Frank Sinatra or Sidney Poitier to play him? (I don’t mean to sound flippant but historical accuracy has always been a big issue with me. Thank you for your earlier response.)
Do you mean that you want to choose an actor who has a similar physical appearance? Well, of course, we don’t know what he actually looked like, but he probalby looked like someone from North Africa. Unfortunately, off the top of my head I can’t think of an actor from North Africa. But I’m preety sure he wouldn’t look like Frank Sinatra. He was equally feisty though, in his way.
I am reading one of Pagels’ books and she mentions the Didache, which I am not at all familiar with
I looked into it a bit and it sounds very interesting, but I don’t recall you ever mentioning it. May I suggest it as a good topic for the blog?
If you do a word search for it on the blog you’ll see some posts directly dealing with the Didache! (pronounced Didd-ah-kay with an accent on the first syllable)
I’ve been thinking about the roles of the religious or secular group and the individual in establishing one’s own religious or secular convictions. I absolutely think that individuals must try to think rationally and independently about these questions based on a wide range of knowledge and opinion. But I’ve also been thinking that their own individual ideas should rarely be their final conclusions. Rather, their own independent thinking should influence their group’s consensus. And they should normally accept that consensus as their own long term, “working” convictions.
The main reasons are any one individual’s limited knowledge, reasoning capacity, and time constraints. We can’t start from scratch. The group consensus can partially correct for this.
But sometimes one’s own conclusions can be so different from the group’s that one has to leave the group.
So the problem becomes which group to choose. There are many different ones to choose from. None have the sort of universal and rational status of the scientific community.
What should one do? Look for group that’s close enough to one’s own independent conclusions to be acceptable? Just rely on one’s own independent thinking? Think about something else?
It depends what the person is looking for. If one wants an intellectual challenge, it’s better to hang out with those with differnet views; if fellowshipo and commoncause, with those with similar views. But whichever way one goes, one should always listen to others with alternative views and figure out why they hold them (and so consider them carefully for ones self.)
Yes, thanks for reminding me of the importance of discussing things with people with different views.
Would you say that, when you became an agnostic, you felt reasonably certain that was the correct view and that it was highly unlikely that additional study, reflection, and discussion would change your mind? Or more that you’d done your “due diligence” and felt justified in making a decision even if additional consideration might change it? Being in the field of religious studies you probably can’t help but keep an open mind. But for “lay people” it’s a crucial question. Correct belief, certainty, can easily be a lifelong quest-or blind alley.
I’ve also been thinking that debating with others is especially important in discerning what one actually believes and can defend. You’re putting your beliefs on the line. You can often know on an emotional level how reasonable something is and how strong your opponent’s views are.
I was very comfortable with my position and felt confident it was the right one. And I continued to be committed to change my mind if I saw things differently later!
I would only hope you practice what you preach. You sure seem to dismiss anything I present, often without logical support, like John 1:6-13 being about John, not Jesus; Judas as ‘the man who bears me’ answering Judas’s question; John 6:40 being about actual PHYSICAL ‘seeing’ like just said in 6:36 before it; and John 9:4-5 eliminating any chance of Jesus being today’s savior. I come for the challenge. (You asked me why I come here if I always seem to disagree with you.) I’ve carefully considered Christian belief, and Historicity. I dumped it, on my own, long ago, as the New Testament is indefensible. I think others can benefit from what I’ve learned since. Maybe even you.
But people need to leave their preconceptions about living Masters behind. Try to understand what they teach. You might be the one who benefits. I know I surely did.
Fake news then, as now, took on a life of it’s own with the New Testament. . But thanks to the Gnostics and Essenes we know now who had the original Teachings. Clue: it wasn’t the Gospels known as M,M, L and J.
RSSB.org … for reference — definitely not proselytizing.
Hi Bart,
I’m a 7th generation Mormon who became agnostic when I was 26. I was still very active because I figured this was my culture. I too learned to respect everyone will believe what they want to believe, and have since come to the conclusion that spirituality is a journey inward rather than outward. It allows me to respect the journey. As long as a person lives with integrity and their actions are consistent with what they claim to believe I’m good (And their belief does not harm others).
Hi Froggie, I too left the Mormon church not too long ago. Just an FYI, there is a decent documentary,on You Tube, called,” The Mormons,who are they”, done in 2015,features Sandra Tanner and the Wilder family. Very eye opening and informative. I recommended it if you haven’t seen it. Interestingly, you mentioned that you became an agnostic. In the documentary, Sandra Tanner mentions half of Mormons who leave the faith become atheists or agnostics, because they find it hard to believe in anything else.
Your journey is interesting. My question focuses on the endings of Luke and Matthew.
Do you recall if any church fathers addressed the historical disharmony of Luke saying nobody left Jerusalem while Matthew says they traveled over a hundred miles to Galilee?
My guess is that Matthew intended some nonhistorical symbolic meaning for returning to Galilee.
I don’t recall any early father pointing out it was a contradiction, no. And I’d say there’s very little to suggest that Matthew’s narratives are meant to be other than descriptions of things that happened, in his view.
I reread some now and see that Mark also referred to traveling to Galilee. This is complicated. I don’t know the historical chronology. And I, of course, know that you no longer believe in the resurrection of Jesus. Anyway, there had to be some reason for these different Gospel traditions.
It’s usually thought that they arose in different Christian communities independently of one another. They knew Jesus had been raised and that the disciples had seen him, and started telling stories about it, each in their own way.
I reflected more on this and see two reasonable possibilities:
1. The author of Luke was unaware of the other now-canonical Gospel tradition of the Galilean Apostles regrouping in Galilee before heading back to Jerusalem. And this is at odds with Luke 1:1-4.
2. The author of Luke was aware that the Galilean Apostles regrouped in Galilee before heading back to Jerusalem. In this case, the author condensed the speeches of Jesus and deliberately neglected the regrouping in Galilee while focusing on the setup for the birth of the church in Jerusalem during the Feast of Weeks.
I see you implying 1, which looks plausible. I also think that 2 is plausible. Perhaps, you once considered 2 before settling with 1?
I wouldn’t say that he was unfamiliar with other traditions. He may well have known a range of traditions and narrated teh ones he considered most plausible and / or valuable.
Good point, thank you! After more thought, I conjecture that the author of Luke-Acts was *aware* of the tradition of the Galilean Apostles regrouping in Galilee before heading back to Jerusalem, and he thought it was *plausible*, but he saw no value in adding that detail to his Gospel because of his eventual second book’s emphasis on the birth of the church in Jerusalem during the Feast of Weeks, and the condensing of speeches was acceptable in the ancient context.
Does that sound reasonable?
For every historical view, I always want to know if there is any evidence for it, since otherwise, a hundred speculations are possible, and many reasonable, but at least 99% wrong….
“For every historical view, I always want to know if there is any evidence for it, since otherwise, a hundred speculations are possible, and many reasonable, but at least 99% wrong….”
I hope to dig into this more, if I may.
Setting aside all reports of signs and wonders, my key points follow:
1. The Galilean Apostles retreated to Galilee after the death of Jesus (Matthew, Mark, John).
2. The Apostles journeyed back to Jerusalem for the Feast of Weeks (Acts).
3. The author of Luke took the liberty to neglect to mention the retreat to Galilee. which I understand is an acceptable ancient convention.
In the context of history, Do you see any major problems with my points 1-2?
I think 1 is well attested and probably right — not to mention logical. If Jesus was arrested for urging a revolution and they were his followers they may well have gotten out of town quickly — like that night — and headed home. That makes me wonder if 2 can be right, that they came right back very quickly. Acts of course does not state #2. In Acts they do not come back. They never leave. I don’t think that can be right either.
“I think 1 is well attested and probably right — not to mention logical….” That makes me wonder if 2 can be right, that they came right back very quickly. Acts of course does not state #2. In Acts they do not come back. They never leave. I don’t think that can be right either.”
First, I hope we can agree with the “Harper Bible Commentary” in that Luke and Acts need to be judged by ancient convention and not by modern standards of history. Do you agree?
Second, the Feast of Weeks was 7 weeks later. I would not say that arriving back in Jerusalem 5 to 7 weeks later means “that they came right back very quickly.” Setting religious and nonreligious bias, the Galilean Apostles could have enjoyed a collective experience of seeing the resurrected Jesus, real or illusory. This could have encouraged them to return to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Weeks. What makes you wonder that about them returning to Jerusalem 5 to 7 weeks later?
Thank you. I am greatly enjoying and benefiting from this analysis.
1. I’d say it depends on what we’re judging it for. If we’re judging whether it’s a good history by ancient standards, then we need to apply ancient standards; if we’re judging whether we can trust it to tell us what actually happened, then we need modern standards. 2. I’d say “very quickly” depends on modes of transportation. If they have to walk and this was the second trip in their entire lives, I’d say it’s pretty quick. It’s like if I go back to Verona in October, that would be considered fiarly quickly, even if it’s 5-7 weeks after the first time, since last month was the first time I was every there and it’s a big trip getting there, if yo usee what I mean.
Thank you for clarifying your context for “very quickly.”
“1. I’d say it depends on what we’re judging it for. If we’re judging whether it’s a good history by ancient standards, then we need to apply ancient standards; if we’re judging whether we can trust it to tell us what actually happened, then we need modern standards.”
Please let me explain my philosophical methods for understanding the historicity of the New Testament. I strive to understand the ancient history of biblical times while using modern standards of history. The tricky part is that we are limited because we make deductions by analyzing archeological remains and ancient records that were written in ancient languages with ancient standards. And I try to determine the most likely sequence of events given the limits of the original sources.
Also, I cannot do justice to this topic in less than 200 words 🙂
Anyway, there is evidence from Acts, authentic Pauline letters, and Josephus that a church emerged in Jerusalem and that Galillien Apostles were part of that church. And it is well within ancient standards of history that Luke-Acts purposefully neglected a roundtrip to Gallilee while focusing on the birth of the church in Jerusalem.
I have to wonder why family members were upset with your change. Maybe they thought that you would be going to hell.
If you were a member of a small group I could understand the threat departure posed but you weren’t leaving at first and there are so many Christians in the world, one less wouldn’t make any difference.
You didn’t mention your kids. I assume that you taught them your religion when they were young and then changed your beliefs.
PS: I was listening to a podcast with Elaine Pagels last week and she said you told her something like “How can you believe that stuff?”.
I think it was in the context of a discussion of religion and the presence of evil in the world.
But I can’t see how her actual beliefs differ much from yours.
She seems to see religion as having value in being able to console people in times of stress but I didn’t get the impression that she thought that any of them are true.
I believe Elaine continues to see herself as a Christian, in the Episcopalian tradition. I, of coruse, lfet the faith. My kids were raised in the church but independently of me became atheists.
You wrote: “I would challenge anyone to explain to me how Luke can be right that the disciples saw Jesus in Jerusalem on the day of his resurrection and were told not to leave Jerusalem and never did leave Jerusalem until long after Jesus ascended to heaven forty days later, if Matthew is right that the disciples were told to leave Jerusalem to meet Jesus (some hundred miles north) in Galilee and they did leave Jerusalem right away and did see Jesus only in Galilee. Did they stay in town the whole time or not? I don’t see how it can be both.”
————————-
As argued by Karl Georg Wieseler: If it is understood that as in Acts 1:4-11, so also in Luke 24:44-53, the command to stay in Jerusalem was part of the Ascension Day discourse “…there is not the smallest discrepancy between Luke and the two other Synoptists in their narrative of the last appearances of our Lord.” (A chronological synopsis of the four Gospels. Tr. by E. Venables,1877).
What if one of your students had made that argument? How would you grade it?
I would tell them to read the texts more closely. Luke’s account happens on the day of the resurrection (just look at how each paragraph begins); Acts happens 40 days later (it’s explicit on the point)
One of the strange things about Christianity as practiced by some is that you might have done terrible things in your life, but as long as you say that you repent and believe the church’s doctrines you can be accepted in fellowship, whereas someone who has tried their best to lead a compassionate moral life but does not have all the correct orthodox beliefs is either excommunicated or shunned. In fact, one can believe most of the doctrines and still be shunned if you don’t check all the boxes; I’ve seen this happen even over what kind of music is used in church services. Too bad that religion often divides instead of bringing together.
Very well spoken,Bart. I am experiencing what you went through, but one thing I must say is that, even though you make new friends, you can’t help it notice how silently effective some close family members can still be through their beliefs. I am not talking about the fundamentalists or the bible thumpers, but those who are close and love you no matter what, because they strongly feel,internally, that we are all cut from the same fibre. Their virtues are subliminal and exemplary, and you can’t help it feel their agape love and genuine demeanor. Plato concluded, what separates a virtuous from the un-virtuous,is not a desire for what is good,everyone desires of what they think to be good, but rather the knowledge of what the good really is. When a person
does something wrong or bad it cannot be because they want to do it, knowing it is bad, it must be that
they want to do it, believing it to be good. I think this is our puzzle. The universal happiness and unity in diversirty ,everyone searches, based on a common dialogue to follow,was maybe Christianity’s/Jesus greatest message.
A person can do something bad knowing that it is bad. It’s called selfishness or self-centeredness.
A tough journey. Tough in relationships because, as you say, religion, or lack of religion, divides. Tough emotionally, because losing a theistic sense of purpose in one’s own life as well as losing one’s belief in a theistic sense of purpose in the lives of those whom we love, removes a foundational pillar of hope that will have previously made it easier to get through difficult days and weeks. A universe with suffering is tough enough, but a universe with suffering, but without the sense of purpose which theism supplies, can be almost unbearable – scary!
You made an excellent arrangement with your family. It can be extremely hard.
One problem is with the political realities of the day. In many countries there is massive effort to insert religion into government policy and laws. When I say religion of course I mean christian religion.
I find it is much harder to compromise my feelings about christian religion when put into daily conflict with laws that reflect a defective basis and there is were I find myself too often these days.
Thank you for sharing your experience, Dr. Ehrman. My interactions with some of my more conservative Christian friends from my past life as an evangelical have also been unpleasant, so we ultimately parted ways.
I don’t do proactive counter-evangelism (especially in-family), but I do think there is social and political value in speaking out against the increasingly authoritarian forms of Christianity in the United States. Scholarship like yours has proven very useful in that regard.
Keep up the good work!
~ Scott
I must say you made a difficult but brave and sensible decision which stand on correct principal. Reject if it is illogical with too many unacceptable and intolerable discrepancies. But why agonistic and not another better religion that also accept Jesus as the true Messiah (true Messiah that was not supposed to be humiliated and killed) and son of God figuratively and without a single error?
In your intense and zealous research/study for years, did you come across people who were agnostic/atheist throughout history or during the time of all the previous prophets of God?
When agnostic/atheist started ? What are the major attractions that benefits being agnostic/atheist ? Please convince with facts to support the validity of your new decision like those that you possess when you quit Christianity? Any good and logical reasons that agnostic/atheist its the truth? That being the case do you have recognized/acceptable historical and scientific evidence to convince your blog followers?
There were, of course, atheists in antiquity, but they were very few and far between. Others (Epicurists) believed in gods but the gods had *nothing* to do with human. I don’t feel any compulsion to convince anyone that I’m right. There is no scientific or historical evidence that can determine a theological view, any more than science or history can establish whether a poem is beautiful or if I love my wife. Science and history are not relevant to lots of things in life.
I was born into the Jehovahs Witness religion as a third generation JW. I believed wholeheartedly. I was a typical apologetic with explanations for everything that could be considered a contradiction or error. Until I wasn’t… I sat down and read the Bible for thirty minutes at a time instead of just reading verses that proved a theological point I was being taught. I thought if I had doubts then I should at least read the bible. So I sat down to do it and midway through the Old Testament I realized I didn’t need to read the rest to confront my fears. Reading large chunks of the Bible at a time allowed me to see what I’d been conditioned to overlook. I can really relate to your post. Especially the trouble with changing your group and friends. Misquoting Jesus was read in a transitional part of my path. It answered so many questions I’d been plagued with. Thank you for these type of posts. I really enjoy the deep ones where I learn a lot. But, a post like this is a fantastic read in between the deep ones. Thank you!
It is understandable that you have to give up what you feel is not right. But what I could not understand is why not look at so many other religions especially your main focus in life is in the field of religion.
Being an agnostic, is I feel being, religionless or accepting godless in this vast dynamic universe with massive evolution in a perfect precision. Stars, planets, moons, and other billions objects in space orbit around and perform revolution in an unbelievable faultless wonder of immense dimension. Logically there should be a God that manage all these impossible tasks.
Differences of opinions, disagreements, conflicting views and even debates are all part and parcel of life. We have to accept and tolerate it. What matter most is the truth that is not an insult to our intelligence.
I suppose one could ask the same of everyone. Why be a Muslim if you haven’t examined Hinduism? Or a Buddhist if you haven’t examined Judaism. There are hundreds of religions in the world. Does anyone examine all the options before making a decision? My decision for agnosticism was not based on the sense that if my religion was wrong all were wrong. It was based on a broader decision that I don’t beleive there is a God active in this world in any sense, but that entire universe is made up of material — particles and forces, e.g.,
This actually speaks to my qualms about raising children in a religion. We should be allowed to choose what we want to believe in, if anything, as adults, which I suppose we can, but the indoctrination at an early age biases people to believe in the rightness of whatever one they were raised in. Like Ben Franklin said, more or less, religion should be able to stand on it’s own. he was talking about money and political backing, but I think that is also true for attracting adherents. If the only way your religion survives the franchise wars is because you ‘get them young’, I can’t say it’s a very robust religion dogma-wise, and I can’t think much of you for doing that to your kid.
The USA has outlawed most kinds of child-targeted advertising. In my opinion it should be equally concerned with religious indoctrination. If someone chooses a faith as an informed consumer, great. But using the child’s brain, which has not achieved it’s final adult reasoning capability or wisdom, against it, is at best dangerous.
Dr Ehrman,
Apologies for a non relevant question:
You have mentioned in some of your posts that Jewish belief in Heaven is “feasting with Biblical patriarchs and thats about it”
Where do we find this reference ?
I don’t recall ever saying that.
I have a query about Acts1:9.
I do understand the reason for it – the common view about Earth was that it’s flat and about this level for humans there is another level for Gods – heaven. So there is logic in it, that when Jesus went to God – his father, he went up into the clouds.
But now we know there are no Gods above the clouds.
How do professionals in your field but believers deal with that issue?
Would they say that Jesus kept flying, passing the Moon, all the planets, next stars etc.. untill he reached heaven or that he just pretended going up, because it was common view that heaven is up there?
(Wouldn’t it make him a lier? 😉 )
Are you asking how we know that there is not a literal heaven above our stratosphere where God or the gods reside? We know that because of astronomy. Professionals in my field who are well educated would say that the stories of the ascension were either rooted in ancient cosmologies that no educated person today subscribes to — but the ancient writers didn’t know any better — or that the stories are meant to convey deeper metaphorical meaning. I myself think the former.
Thanks.
I mean how professionals in your field who are still believing Christians, deal with Jesus going up to the sky – above the clouds.
As historians – they would say what you’ve just said – ancient cosmologies, not knowing any better etc…
But how they deal with it as Christians?
If they know there is no God’s place above the sky but Bible is saying there is God above the sky. Don’t they have problems with trusting the gospels?
Gospel is written as eye witness testimony – people are seeing Jesus going up to the sky.. If this is just metaphorical, what else from Jesus’s life could be metaphorical?
As Christians they say that people in the ancient world didn’t have our cosmologies and so didn’t realize that we live in a universe where there is no “up” so there is no “up there” where God lives. These are Christian scholars who do not think the Bible is completley reliable. They do not think their faith is in the BIBLE but in GOD. Very big difference.
Thanks, I understand.
So if their faith is in God, not in the Bible, where did they get their info from?
(Info about their God, about Jesus, what he has done and how Christians should live their lives).
I don’t think there are other sources about Christian God and Jesus. Just Bible and NT apocrypha. Or am I missing something?
My guess is: they became Christians as children because of the Bible. Later on they realised there are contradictions in the Bible so to keep their faith they are making a distinction that their Faith is in God, not in the Bible even if their faith started because of the Bible…
The same way most people get/got their information about most things: they heard others talking about it. There were thousands of peole talking about Jesus in, say, the year 70 CE, but we have the writings of only one author before then.
Your example on resurrection base on Luke and Matthew versions shows clearly that resurrection is surely doubtful because “how it can be both?”
This kind of crystal clear contradictory evidence should be able to convince those who had disagreed with you. The sour and unpleasant relationships can be avoided if they were able to understand your stand for truth.
Now that you are sure that “there are some real, and serious, contradictions” do you think that Paul’s statement on resurrection in I Corinthian 15:14 actually did not happen and therefor faith on resurrection is “useless” as suggested by Paul?
I do not think that if accounts of an event are contradictory with one another it has any bearing on whether the event happened or not.
I’ve recently asked a similar question but want to zero in on one specific thing. The synoptics and Paul say that, at the last supper, Jesus told his followers to drink his blood. Within the specific context of Jewish religion, wouldn’t that have been an enormously shocking thing to have the Jewish Jesus say? Wasn’t blood thought to contain the life force and belong exclusively to God? Isn’t the OT filled with prohibitions against consuming blood?
I can’t help but think that these writers were trying to make some major point and/or indicating that some major change was taking place. What might they have “meant”?
Drinking the blood is related to the new covenant involving the forgiveness of sins. Would these writers be indicating that, as a result of that forgiveness (or as part of it), God was sharing his divine life with humanity in a deeper, more intimate, and even somewhat egalitarian way?
He actually doesn’t say “drink my blood.” He says that the bread is his body and the cup is his blood, and that they are to eat the bread adn drink the cup. Not the same thing, and that’s why it’s been interpreted differently over the centuries. (Protestants, for example, say that if they show you a photograph and point to a figure in it and say “that’s my mother,” they don’t literally mean that the photo *is* their mother)
Ok. Good point. Though, to complete the photograph analogy, wouldn’t it be to hand you the photograph of one’s mother and suggest you give her a hug or kiss right then and there?
But my point is not to argue that the synoptic writers are proposing transubstantiation. Even if they meant the blood reference to be understood symbolically (which they probably did) wouldn’t it be, if not “enormously shocking,” at least “quite surprising,” even unheard of, for a Jew to be told to drink from a cup filled with wine that symbolized blood? Was it ok or common practice for Jews to drink something called blood as long as it was not the real thing?
It still seems to me that this is intended to signify a big change of some kind. (And I happen to be plowing through Leviticus right now-not the Reader’s Digest version-with its stern prohibitions about consuming blood.)
I”m not sure what the context would be of someone drinking blood that wasn’t really blood.
I recently read a novel in which a cynical character asks, in relation to a recent deadly tornado, what the “Good Shepherd” ultimately does with his sheep. That character answers his own question by saying that “the shepherd eats the sheep-one by one.” (Even if the shepherds are rarely allowed to eat the sheep themselves, shearing the sheep would convey a similar though less drastic message.)
I don’t really have a question–though I am a little curious if you’ve heard that one before vs it possibly being original to the novelist.
Never heard that one!
Dr Ehrman,
I was recently thinking about Paul’s personality and I was wondering if you have ever heard of the suggestion that the apostle Paul may have suffered from a psychological disorder such as bipolar. I have a close friend who suffers from the condition and I see a lot of similarities:
1. Grandiose sense of self, mission, calling (Paul’s view of himself as an apostle)
2. Periods of intense sadness followed by periods of euphoria and bliss (Paul speaks of times of great sorrow. At other times he speaks of euphoric joy).
3. High energy/high intensity
4. Risk taking (Paul engaged in many risky behaviors eg openly preaching and facing serious consequences for it eg “For to me to live is Christ but to die is gain” ).
5. Hallucinations (Paul was carried to the 3rd Heaven, saw a vision on the way to Damascus etc.)
6. Paul speaks of some kind of physical weakness ie “thorn in the flesh.”
7. Paranoia (personally transporting Christian prisoners to Syria to be killed, he may have experienced guilt and paranoia, which could have induced hallucinations under a lot of stress.
Yes, it’s one of the many theories about Paul — and there are tons of them. Bipolar. Epileptic. Repressed homosexual. Irrepressible sex drive. Egomaniac. Narcissist. and and and! My view is that it’s impossible to psycholanalyze someone from 2000 years ago on the basis of a few letters. It’s hard enough to evaluate someone who has been lying on your couch talking to you for three years….
Just saying thank you for your scholarship and willingness to help others understand the foundations of so much of our shared culture.
“There is no scientific or historical evidence that can determine a theological view,” Perhaps you could reconsider with new discovery and up-to-date information.
Theological view, must be supported with approved scientific credentials by the experts in their respective fields. This is so basic, a 100 % prerequisite for a belief that is logically acceptable with substantial proofs of the existence of God who created everything. God must surely prove His existence. There is no two way about it.
You mentioned the Big Bang. People in Middle East, especially the Arabs have been discussing about this event more than 1,400 years ago. It was revealed by God in His Book together with more than 150 other scientific proofs on His other Creations including sun, moon, planets, mountains, humans, DNA, including that the universe is expanding.
Scientists in various fields, after careful, but thorough and meticulous analysis of the Book from God, gave their green light with their approval that this information is true and accurate. The universe is perfect which validate the existence of God who reveal all that mankind needs to know and understand His Existence in His Book which is easily available in so many languages.
Hello Mr. Erhman,
I recently came to know about you. I love your blog and I have a question for you. If we suppose the gospels were partially made up by non-eyewitnesses tens of years after the historical Christ lived, only partially basing them on things that really happenened, why then would they leave in something so emberassing as the failed apocalypse of Jesus, making him say that he would return in the disciples’ lifetime?
This failed apocalypse played a major part in me realizing the New Testament is not what it says it is, but what I wrote above really puzzles me. Any ideas?
They appear to hve thought it would happen soon in their *own* day — just as most people today read his predictions and think that he means soom for *them* and don’t realized that it is a failed prophecy. See what I mean?
“Why you haven’t examined Hinduism?” Easy to examine religion. Just have your criteria list. My standards. God must prove His Existence. Has to be revealed by Prophet of God accepted by almost all his contemporary who met, evaluated with high standard. More than 90 % confirmed they were fully satisfied he was a Prophet of God. Characteristics/background are the best, highest standard, recognized to be truthful. Must be foretold by many previous Prophets. Teaching the truth, common sense, complete both for this world and thereafter.
“I don’t believe..God active…in any sense, but made up of materials,” Would appreciate if you could elaborate so that I could have a better understanding.
Rotation of the earth to form day and night, earth revolution around the sun, orbit of the moon are activities beyond human control. Who manage all these if it is not God? God in His Book reveal that He created all these and manage it.
“It has any bearing…happened or not.” How can an unknown, stranger know who he buried?
Nobody witness the actual resurrection scene. Jesus oozed out naked after he had left his linen/napkin. Nobody met nude Jesus. Unsound to believe resurrection?
My point is that most people — including you, I assume — are happy with their religious views and so do not look into other religions. And so if that’s true with you, since you are a committed Muslim, you should not object when it is true of someone else who is not a Muslim. That is, you shouldn’t be surprised that someone else doesn’t do what you yourself yourself don’t do (examine the truth claims in depth of the other religions). That’s just a form of proselytizing. And as you know, this blog is not about proselytizing.
As to how we could have a material world without a God, I’d suggest you read up on that if you are genuinely curious. I’d suggest you start with some physicists, for example Brian Greene and Sean Carroll. If you’re not curious then, again, you’re simply advocating yoru own views without knowing those of others.
I’m wondering if there is an important connection between Jewish Christianity (eg, the Ebionites) and the emergence of Islam? Is there good evidence for that connection or is it mostly tantalizing speculation? The ideas I’ve come across online cover a wide range: Jewish Christianity moved to Arabia after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 135; it was part of the cultural milieu out of which Islam emerged; Islam absorbed and preserved Jewish Christianity-though was not limited by it; some Medieval Christian writers viewed islam as a Christian heresy, perhaps a form of Arianism.
An especially fascinating question is whether Islam preserves early Jewish Christian views about Jesus-which may be the earliest (post-resurrection) Christian views. And I have to ask how similar the Islamic view of Jesus is to our modern understanding of the historical Jesus.
Can you recommend a book or author?
I don’t know that field very well, but you might look at the books about it by Michael Penn and by Steven Shoemacher.
Bart, I believe that should Stephen J. Shoemaker, author of A PROPHET HAS APPEARED: The Rise of Islam through Christian and Jewish Eyes.
“Early Islam has emerged as a lively site of historical investigation, and scholars have challenged the traditional accounts of Islamic origins by drawing attention to the wealth of non-Islamic sources that describe the rise of Islam. A Prophet Has Appeared brings this approach to the classroom. This collection provides students and scholars with carefully selected, introduced, and annotated materials from non-Islamic sources dating to the early years of Islam. These can be read alone or alongside the Qur’an and later Islamic materials. Applying historical-critical analysis, the volume moves these invaluable sources to more equal footing with later Islamic narratives about Muhammad and the formation of his new religious movement.”
I wonder if it’s the same thing to let go of our previous ideas and people. After all, aren’t they just a thought in our mind?
Dr. Ehrman,
From your POV, does agnosticism bring any more significant life benefits than having holding a liberal Christian POV? If so, what is a benefit(s) you have experienced since moving from a Christian viewpoint?
As one of the bloggers mentioned, it seems that having a theistic pov gives people a sense of hope. Even if this hope were to be hypothetically misguided, does a ‘hopeless” agnosticism provide more benefits to you in life than if you held a traditional view of Christianity? Or is it the fact that you feel you have taken the “red pill” so it’s an irrelevant question and doesn’t really matter.
Really asking these questions open-endedly without an agenda, so really curious to your thoughts.
Do you mean on just the personal level? For me it has made me cherish this life far more then before, because I realize with increased certainty that this is all there is, and I need to relish all it’s good things as much as I can — family, friends, intellectual stimulation, intelligent conversation, good food and drink, and the simple pleasures. It’s not a dress rehearsal. As a result, I personally enjoy life more now that before.
Can I ask you Dr. Ehrman what is that ” increased certainty ” that leads you to hold that view? I too cherish life, but the thought of annihilation is very depressing and I feel it serves no ultimate purpose. I believe everything is for a reason. Thank you for your knowledge and kind consideration.
I used to think that too. And I thought annihilism was depressing. I simply don’t any more. Quite the opposite. You can still have purpose in life and find real joy and satisfaction, even if you realize that it will not last long. For me it’s not depressing that I wasn’t alive a hundred, thousand, million, or billion years ago — and I certainly wasn’t depressed at the time; it’s not depressing I won’t be in those many years ahead either. I certaily won’t miss being alive. I just won’t be, as before. For me that’s sad, because I love this world and being in it. But lots of things in reality are sad, and I think it’s best to face the truth and realize the amazing upsides of it. I relish life now more than ever.
Thank you Dr. Ehrman. I do hope you’re wrong about the annihilation part though, because I wish to see some people again that I’ve lost. I hope we’re not like farts in the wind.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I just listened to a call-in-show where a person claimed the Bible was not a Christian book, because there were Christians before the Bible was written (or possibly before it was collected – he was a little hazy on the details). It sounded like he had read “Lost Christianities” and not quite understood it. :o)
“do not look into other religions” I am an author of books on religions including Judaism and Christianity.
“a form of proselytizing.” We differed on several fundamental matters which could, by reasoning it out, can be an indication of proselyting.
Examples: Jews and Muslims believe Messiah should not be humiliated and killed. God is not God of wrath but God is Most Merciful who will not allow merciless killing. Conflicting views. Disagreeing by displaying the true position of Messiah can be regarded as proselytizing because it opposed with your stand.
“bearing on whether the event happened or not.” Resurrection is the principal foundation of Christianity. Justifiable standard should therefore be 100% error-free, yet surprisingly too many contradictions have no bearing. Foremost Pillar of the faith should not stand on wobbly grounds. We differed, not divine?
You absolutely have your every right not to believe in existence of God. I cannot change your rights to all your beliefs. God’s Latest Creation, mankind, has the privilege of choice. Explanation become obligatory and answerable for those who has the lights. Unfortunately, illustration can be construed as proselytizing. Explaining is just being responsible.
I have no problem with anyone explaining their views — and you are welcome to do so! It’s a fine line between explaining religious views and advocating for one as superior, and hard sometimes not to cross it.
Dr. Ehrman,
Were you married to a believing spouse during the spectrum of your move away from Evangelical faith? If so, how did she react and deal with it?
She was moving away as well.
I wonder if you would comment on the value of reading the Gospels and the New Testament from the perspective of a non-believer. I never read the Gospels until recently on the grounds that they were a combination of bad history, superstition and propaganda. Now that I’ve read them, partly as a result of listing to your lectures, I wish I had done so decades ago as a work of literature and as a foundation document of western civilization, one of the few books that everyone should read. How do you assess the value of the Gospels after having lost your faith in them as the word of God? Do people who insist on the literal truth of the Gospels miss some truth that transcends a narrow religious view?
I was an English major in college and it didn’t take long at all to realize that if you didn’t know the Bible, you’d miss out on TONS of things in the history of literature. And yes, insisting that every word is infallible ironically leads people *away* from understanding what these books are saying. For one thing, it makes the reader assume that one author is saying exactly what another is (no discrepancies!) when in fact he might be saying something completely different. And they miss it.
Reading a post like this reminds me once again of the PROFOUND similarities between my own journey and yours (Mr. Ehrman) — it explains for me the affinity I have always felt, reading your work(s). As a former evangelical of pretty much exactly the same stripe as you — I have found that the most troubling situations involve the perceptions of one’s own “nuclear family.” This is because well, these are the people we care about the most. And rightfully, we don’t want to hurt or offend them. With my siblings, all of whom are staunch believers to this day — and some of them BECAUSE of my own conversion and former teachings — it is just as you say — it has become an issue to just avoid, so as to maintain an even more important thing than theological kinship — kinship itself.
I recently published a novel that exposes CLEARLY my updated theological views, and I found that during the writing of it — there was such a struggle within me to realize, “Hey, everyone I know — my brother and sisters, nieces and nephews, everyone is going to read this!” Yet I am so glad I did it.
Professor Ehrman,
I reached all the same conclusions you did: there are a great many cases of fiction and self-serving statements in the Bible. The claim that it is all “God’s word” is ridiculous. But that is not the same as not believing that some of it was indeed inspired by a Supreme Power that is communicating with everyone several times each day, but is ignored 99% of the time. (This is the key part of Process Theology that I have come to see as being true because it explains why we receive impulses to help those in need.) Many scientists are now convinced that the part of the multi-dimensional universe we occupy was designed (“fine-tuned”) or it would not exist, ergo, there was a designer. Further, there is strong evidence that our consciousness continues to exist after our bodies die. I urge everyone to read the 1975 book “Life After Life” by Dr. Raymond moody, M.D. and the 2013 book “Return to Life” by Dr. Jim Tucker, MD.
Kierkegaard wrote, “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what is not true; the other is not to believe what is true.”
Bill Steigelmann
Bart –
I noticed you used the words atheist and agnostic almost interchangeably. I’m assuming you do this because most people don’t understand the difference and lump non-believers into the same group.
When people say, I know you’re an atheist, Lance”, I emphatically tell them I am a militant Agnostic. Explaining that I belong to the Church of IDFK ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
That neither side is right because there is no definitive, scientific proof as to the existence or non-existence of a god. As a devout trial attorney, I inform them that the jury is still out.
Just curious about your thoughts regarding the atheist/agnostic divide and how you navigate that issue with laypeople?
P.S. I saw you graduated from Lawrence High School in ’73. I graduated from Shawnee Mission South in O.P. the same year and attended KU for a while. If you saw Lawrence today, it would probably blow your mind how much it’s changed and grown.
Ah, you always beat us in football…. My first wife was from Overland Park (moved to Lawrence for high school, wehre we met). I went back to Lawrence for many years while my mom was still there, until four years ago. Yup, a different cosmos from the one I gree up in.
Search “atheist and agnostic” on teh blog and you’ll find posts where I talk about what I thnk they mean and how I relate to them.
Thank you for telling about a page of your life.
I too lost my belief in the christian duality,,,,,,,,,but I stranded on non-duality. That felt for a time as a «limbo» for me, until some of the biblical dreadful scriptures I read with my duality glasses, and which I hated started to to sing in the same non duality choir. They presented themself in another guise, an allegorical guise, and suddenly started to make sense, and a sense that the duality only exists in the mind.
I alienated more friends and family when I first became a born again Christian. As a Christian I was taught that with urgency, I needed to go out and save souls before the Tribulations start. This took up quite a bit of energy and looking back I feel embarrassed by the way I behaved then. Losing my faith in God was like taking a yoke off from around my neck and I was free of that burden. Sure I encounter people who think atheist are bad but at least I have no obligation to save them.
Dr. Ehrman, thanks for your candid words about your personal journey! I, too, grew up in a very fundamentalist environment (Jehovah’s Witnesses) and am now an atheist, but have family members who are still very much fundamentalists. One thing is (still) a significant issue for me: The fundamentalist worldview has a judgmental attitude practically baked into it. (“We alone know the true will of God! All of you other people are wrong!! Let us set you straight!!!”)
I’m still struggling with this judgmental attitude, only today it’s directed at those entrenched believers. The more fundamentalist someone is in their views, the harder I find it to be tolerant of their views. (Seriously – how can anyone believe that humans were literally created 6000 years ago by God? I don’t get it. Or more seriously – why would anyone reject life-saving medical treatment because of an intepretation of a bible verse?)
Did you also struggle with letting go of a judgmental worldview? If so, do you have any good insights that helped you in that regard? I know you always emphasize tolerance. But do you draw boundaries beyond which you find some religious views intolerable?
Yes, it took me many years to stop my knee jerking when I heard someone spouting views I held when I was a conservative evangelical, views that I had since came to think were completely WRONG…. It doesn’t happen to me so much any more. My view is that probalby MOST of us are wrong about lots of things, maybe most things, so there are some things that are far more important than what a person believes — for example, how they treat each other.
Dear Professor Ehrman,
Thank you, I’ve wondered a few times how your beliefs affected your relationship with your family and friends – having contrary beliefs within Christianity can be a bit of a deal breaker with some folks.
I was just wondering if you could please tell me a little about your agnosticim? I spent a few years in a Fundamentalist Christian foster home that left me terrified of God, but now I consider myself an agnostic.
I don’t have any formed ideas on what or who might have created us, but I hope it’s not the Christian God as the image of him and his afterlife still have a frightening hold on me if I stop to think about it.
Do you think we may have come from an unknown spiritual source for example, or maybe the Christian God exists but the things that have been said about him are either false or misconstrued?
Also, were you a believer in hell when you were a Christian?
Thank you very much!
I was a firm believer in hell as a Christian, for many many years. Now I am an agnostic because like lots of thinking people I simply don’t think it’s possible to *know* if there is a (or a trillion) non-material spiritual being(s) in the world. But I really don’t believe so, so I am also an atheist. I think reality is entirely made up of physical particles nad forces, etc., and that there is nothing else in existence. I talk about my views a bit in my book God’s Problem, if you want to look at it.
Thank you very much for your reply Professor Ehrman, it’s always really interesting to learn about the spiritual journeys that people find themselves on, or moving away from:)
Also, thank you for letting me know about God’s Problem, I’ll definitely add that to my list!
“I have no problem with anyone explaining their views — and you are welcome to do so! It’s a fine line between explaining religious views and advocating for one as superior, and hard sometimes not to cross it.”
Thank you for allowing explanation on views that may be different. I will try to be careful on message that may seem to be superior. However, It is not easy to change superior to inferior when to put forth a valid point. Generally, truth will not only look superior but at times rectify past errors with more convincing evidence which fortunately or unfortunately will look superior.
You wrote: “Professionals in my field who are well educated would say that the stories of the ascension were either rooted in ancient cosmologies that no educated person today subscribes to — but the ancient writers didn’t know any better — or that the stories are meant to convey deeper metaphorical meaning. I myself think the former.”
I, for my part, think the latter: “…the stories [of the ascension] are meant to convey deeper metaphorical meaning.” Thanks for making this distinction and for letting us know which side you are on.
How important is this distinction among professionals in your field? (For example, can you pretty much classify all the leading scholars either on one side or the other? Do you know what Metzger thought in regard to the ascension stories?)
I don’t think this is one of those points that “conservatives” have one view on and “liberals” another. I’m not sure about Metzger. My GUESS is that he would say that he thought it actually happened but that God had it happen to accommodate to the ancient view of things, so the disciples would understand that Jesus now went up to God. But I don’t really know.
I was born in an atheist family in the most secularized country of the americas.
The first time I read a passage from the Bible I was 25.
When I was a teenager my father explained me “just as we speak Spanish and write with latin letters , the arabs , the indians or people from the far east speak other languages and write with different alphabets, so with religion , it’s only tradition , you don’t choose the language you speak or the alphabet you write with and so you don’t choose the religion you believe in, what a muslim know about christianism? What a christian know about hinduism? ”
As simple as it may sound it worked for me for many years but what I didn’t understand is why so many (many) people still believed in any religion at all, in particular in christianism, they really believe in the son of a virgin and a spirit who resurrected three days after his death?
But then I engage in studying the NT and found this:
2 Cor 10:4-6
”The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.”
What Paul achieved with his cult in Corinth (take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ) was accomplished through all the Roman Empire , then to western europe and then to the lands conquered by them.
And still today many human beings had “ every thought ..captive to make it obedient to Christ”.
Before he died 24 years ago, my dad was an episcopal priest; had always been a liberal Christian. More liberal than many. In one of your books, and again here, you reference that going hardcore into gospel study shows that the contradictions are too big to ignore. It got me thinking about how in the process of teaching one about faith, seminary actually tells you you are wrong about certain things. I’m condensing thoughts here because of word count issues, but I suppose this means that in order to continue to preach in faith about about faith, that you have to learn to base it on something other than strictly what the bible says. My dad probably went through the same sort of breaking down of assumptions, and now I wonder how hard it was for him, and his fellow seminarians to come to some peace about it. He never really talked about this and I never questioned his faith, but now I wonder how much of it he took seriously, and how much he hid his true feelings about the core believes of Christianity. Just food for thought.
I am 74, have been a seeker all my life. Was a meditating Vipasana Buddhist for many years. A new age person, astrologer, tarot etc for many yrs. I have returned to Jesus. I don’t know anything more than that. I belong to no denomination. Cant say what is true beyond a doubt. I deal with suffering and illness and I find great comfort and peace from praying to Jesus. That is all I know for sure. Without Him, I would be lost at this point in my life. I’ve read many scholars, believers and non. All this attention to detail just doesn’t matter to me. What matters is that I feel a presence when I reach for Him.