This past week I had a long talk with one of my bright undergraduates, a first-year student who had been raised in a Christian context but had come to have serious doubts driven in large part by the difficulty she had understanding how there could be suffering in a world controlled by an all-knowing and all-powerful God. I naturally resonated with the question, since this is why I myself left the Christian faith.
I get asked about that transition a lot, and it’s been five or six years since I’ve discussed it at any length on the blog. So I thought I might return to it. The one and only time I”ve talked about it at length is in my book God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer our Most Important Question – Why We Suffer (Oxford University Press, 2008). Here is how I discuss it there, slightly edited. (This will take several posts)
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I think I know when suffering started to become a “problem” for me. It was while I was still a believing Christian – in fact, it was when I was pastoring the Princeton Baptist Church in New Jersey. It was not the suffering that I observed and tried to deal with in the congregation that prompted my questioning – failed marriages, economic hardship, the suicide of a teenage son. It was in fact something that took place outside of the church, in the academy. At the time I was writing my PhD dissertation and – in addition to working in the church – was teaching part time at Rutgers University.
One of the classes that I taught that year was a new one for me. Before this I had mainly been teaching courses on the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, and the writings of Paul. But I had been asked to teach a course called “The Problem of Suffering in the Biblical Traditions.” I welcomed the opportunity because it seemed to me to be an interesting way to approach the Bible, by examining the different responses given by biblical authors to the question of why there is suffering in the world, in particular among the people of God.
It was my belief then, and continues to be my belief now, that different biblical authors had different solutions to the question of why God’s people suffer: some (such as the prophets) thought that suffering came from God as a punishment for sin; others thought that suffering came from God’s cosmic enemies, who inflicted suffering precisely because people tried to do what was right before God; others thought that suffering came as a test to see if people would remain faithful despite suffering; others thought that suffering was a mystery and that it was wrong even to question why God allowed it; others thought that this world was just an inexplicable mess and that we should “eat, drink, and be merry” while we can. And so on.
It seemed to me that one of the ways to see the rich diversity of the Scriptural heritage of Jews and Christians was to see how different authors responded to this fundamental question of suffering..
For the class I had students do a lot of reading throughout the Bible, as well as of popular books that discuss suffering in the modern world, for example Elie Wiesel’s classic Night,[i] which describes his horrifying experiences in Auschwitz as a teenager, Rabbi Harold Kushner’s very popular book When Bad Things Happen to Good People,[ii] and the much less read but thoroughly moving story of Job as rewritten by Archibald Macleish, in his play J.B.[iii]
I began the semester by laying out for the students the classical “problem” of suffering and explaining what is meant the technical term “theodicy.” Theodicy is a word invented by one of the great intellectuals and polymaths of the seventeenth century, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, who wrote a lengthy treatise trying to explain how and why there can be suffering in the world if God is all powerful and wants the absolute best for people.[iv] The term is made up of two Greek words: theos, which means “God,” and dikē, which means “justice.” Theodicy, in other words, refers to the problem of how God can be “just” or “righteous” given the fact there is so much suffering in the world that he created and is allegedly sovereign over.
As philosophers and theologians have discussed theodicy over the years, they have devised a kind of logical problem that needs to be solved to explain the suffering in the world. This problem involves three assertions which all appear to be true, but if true appear to contradict one another. The assertions are these:
God is all-powerful.
God is all-loving.
There is suffering.
How can all three be true at once? If God is all powerful, then he is able to do whatever he wants (and can therefore remove suffering). If he is all loving, then he obviously wants the best for people (and therefore does not want them to suffer). And yet people suffer. How can that be explained?
Some thinkers have tried to deny one or the other of the assertions. Some, for example, have argued that God is not really all powerful – this is ultimately the answer given by Rabbi Kushner in his book When Bad Things Happen to Good People. For Kushner, God wishes he could intervene to bring your suffering to an end, but his hands are tied. And so he is the one who stands beside you to give you the strength you need to deal with the pain in your life, but he can’t do anything to stop the pain. For other thinkers this is to put a limit on the power of God and is, in effect, a way of saying that God is not really God.
Others have argued that God is not all loving, at least in any conventional sense. This is more or less the view of those who think God is at fault for the terrible suffering that people incur – a view that seems close to what Elie Wiesel asserts, when he expresses his anger at God and declares him guilty for how he has treated his people. Others, again, object and claim that if God is not love, again he is not God.
There are some people who want to deny the third assertion; they claim that there is not really any suffering in the world. But these people are in the extreme minority and have never been very convincing to most of us, who prefer looking at the world as it is to hiding our heads in the sand like ostriches.
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I will continue next time from here. (You may want to hold off explaining to us all why there is suffering until I finish with the thread; at that point I’ll be asking you what you yourself think)
Most people who wrestle with the problem want to say that all three assertions are true, but that there is some kind of extenuating circumstance that can explain it all. For example, in the classical view of the prophets of the Hebrew Bible, as we will see at length in the next couple of chapters, God is certainly all powerful and all loving; one of the reasons there is suffering is because his people have violated his law or gone against his will, and he is bringing suffering upon them in order to force them to return to him and lead righteous lives. This kind of explanation works well so long as it is the wicked who are the ones who suffer. But what about the wicked who prosper while the ones who try to do what is right before God are wracked with interminable pain and unbearable misery? How does one explain the suffering of the righteous? For that another explanation needs to be used (for example, that it will all be made right in the afterlife – a view not found in the prophets but in other biblical authors). And so it goes.
[i]. A new translation is now available by Wiesel’s wife, Marion Wiesel; Night (New York: Hill and Wang, 2006).
[ii]. Harold S. Kushner, When Bad Things Happen to Good People (New York: Anchor, 1981).
[iii]. Archibald MacLeish, J.B.: A Play in Verse. (Boston: Houghlin Mifflin, 1957).
[iv]. G. W. Leibniz, Theodicy: Essays on the Goodness of God and the Freedom of Man and the Origin of Evil (Chicago: Open Court, 1985).
I would like to ask if the two flood accounts on Genesis are global or local or not mentioned?
They cover the entire earth, well above all the mountains.
I am one of those who love the book of Job and I have read it so many times that I find NO justification on behalf of God for the existence of suffering, in a context where God is seen as an external, seemingly extraterrestrial being, with different realities where Gods focus is partly to judge us. IIf I’ve believed in this kind of God, the issue of suffering would for sure been a completely devestating effect of believing that God exists.
For me, this perception has been transformed into an inner source, where God is not defined external or distanced. Does it help me?,,perhaps not completely,,,,,but to a certain degree where it is easier to understand the conclution(s) in Job,,,,basically that I don’t know why but still not rule out the existence of God.
In a recent Q&A, your distinction between Satan and The Devil has inspired a question in me that I had never considered:
When Jesus is being tempted for 40 days in the synoptic gospels, are we to understand that his adversary is God’s Cosmic Enemy, the Devil, or God’s Director of Temptation, the Satan? I have always assumed that he was tempted by God’s Cosmic Enemy, the Devil, to demonstrate to us (white evangelical) believers how spiritual warfare works. Is this actually supposed to show Jesus being tempted by *God* (like Job), and being better at it (than Job)? Looking back at it now, the text does indeed say “Satan”.
Another related question, when I type “Satan” into a Bible search there are a couple more Synoptic appearances of the word in which Jesus has things to say about Satan falling out of heaven, or that time he tells Peter to “Get behind me Satan”.
What/Who do the Gospels portray Jesus as conceptualizing Satan as? If he’s in God’s court, is the “kingdom divided against itself” a vassal state of The Kingdom of God? Or have Satan and the Devil become one character to the authors of the gospels?
Followup, Am I correct that Luke mashes the the two together into one character while Mark and Matthew keep them separate?
He has a variety of names and designations in early Xn writings, including the NT: the Devil, Satan, teh Prince of the Power of the Air, the God of this World, Belial, Beelebub, Beelsebul, etc.
In the Gospels (and the entire NT) it is definitely God’s cosmic enemy, the Devil. He appears to be a supernatural power that does considerable evil here on earth.
Are you saying that the OT character who seems more like God’s lawyer simply no longer exists in the NT writings, and all references to adversarial entities in the NT are drawn from a newer, dualistic cosmology that is treating those previous characters as a metaphorical/avatars of this new way of thinking about “the badguys?”
Yes, the divine counsellor is no longer there. The OT adversarial entities, from God’s persepctive, are the gods of the other nations, and by the NT times, those are idols — sometimes just stone and wood, but sometime desmonic. Forces of evil are now cosmic powers within a dualistic cosmology.
I think you should also ask people which explanation is the most egregious one.
For me, it’s definetely the free will panacea. “God loves people so much that he gave them freedom to do as they choose to – it’s not His fault that we choose to do evil things”. OMG, that’s really so irritating to hear. It’s really one of the dumbest possible explanations one can give. Do 4-year olds who die of starvation in Africa have free will? Do we have ‘free’ will? Am I free to choose to travel back in time? Am I free to not love chocolate? Were these thousands of people in Turkey free to not get crashed and die excruciatingly under the debris caused by the massive earthquake? And of course, free will does not explain the immense suffering animals experience (getting eaten alive by other animals, for example).
I meant to post this and forgot, sorry that it is off this blog topic. I thought it would be interesting to see how Artificial Intelligence (AI) interprets parables from the New Testament, the Gospel of Thomas, and creates new parables or sayings based on them. AI seems to know the context already. The link below shows my requests to OpenAI and its responses. The responses are astounding and will blow everyone on this blog away; these are a must read. The very first one explains the parable of men and lions eating each other in the Gospel of Thomas. Another one says, “The truth shall set you free, but first it will challenge you.”. Click the link to read them:
https://ntstudies.org/f/artificial-intelligence-and-the-parables-of-jesus
Example:
A blind man was wandering in the dark and stumbled upon a candle. He held it close and felt the warmth, but he couldn’t see the light. A passerby asked him why he was holding the candle, and the blind man replied, “It gives me hope that there is light in the world, even though I cannot see it myself.”
I would be very interested in how you conceive Pauls view of suffering according to Romans 8. I myself find Pauls view to be the same as Jesus is presented as teaching in Mathew 5 and Luke 6. A view not found in the OT writtings. The OT Jew was looking for Gods Kindom on Earth with an end to suffering of the flesh. NT offers an end to suffering in eternal life, not in the life of the mortal flesh on earth. Paul (and Jesus) divide the “spirit” from the “flesh”. I’m not aware of any previous Jewish teachings on such a separation in the first century.
This Mind/Body/immortal Soul (Dualism) teaching attributed to Jesus and written by Paul raises a question on how and where did Paul get his view from, if he never saw Jesus in the flesh? Also where did the authors of Luke and Mathew get their inspiration of this view in writing about Jesus’s messaging? This teaching seems far beyond the influence of Plato. This teaching seems much more rooted from Egypt than Greece.
Now question is how did Egyptian belief get into the teachings attributed to Jesus and the writings of Paul,
My view is that both Jesus and Paul (and John the Baptist and all their followers) expected a kingdom of God on this earth and did not accept the idea of the immortality of the soul over against the body. They were Jewish apocalypticists, not Greek Platonists (I deal with this issue in my bbok Heaven and Hell). I don’t believe there is any Egyptian influence on the early Christians or Jesus.
Hello Bart. I also posted this comment in the Dan Kohanski thread :
I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on Dr Kara Cooney. She is a Professor of Egyptology at UCLA, and I watched a YT video of her recently. If I understood the video properly, she seems to suggest real connections and influences on the Levant from Egypt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSEkSCV4fm0
OH there certainly were influences at some times! Egypt controlled Canaan, e.g., before the Israelites appeared there.
Thank you Bart.
Prof. Ehrman,
I thought Flavia Domitilla, the catacombs of Domitilla, and Flavius Clemens proved the existence of Christians in high places in Rome.
With Flavia and Clemens being from the first century, why could the author of Christ’s Associations, John Kloppenborg, say
we don’t have any evidence until the second century of Romans at the senatorial level being Christians.
Prof. Robyn Walsh (U. of Miami) says:
My understanding is that the sources for these figures– particularly Flavia Domitilla– are fraught and because of his late date it is hard to rely on the testimony of Eusebius.
Kloppenborg uses inscriptional evidence and combs through other extant rosters for various assemblies in the ancient Mediterranean to come to his conclusion.
= = = = =
The existence of Flavia Domitilla and Flavius Clemens is dependent on Eusebius in some way?
Steefen
Maybe Kloppenborg is saying whatever Eusebius wrote about Domitilla and Clemens is suspect,
but there is no denying they and the catacombs existed.
Domitilla perhaps espoused Judaism, though *Eusebius (Hist. Eccl. 3. 18) believed that she favoured *Christianity
Oxford Classical Dictionary
Flavia Domitilla
by Brian Campbell
The question isn’t whether they existed. The question is whether they were Christian.
Yes, we do not have good sources to indicate that there Christians — including these two — at the very upper level of the Roman elite.
I’ll hold off on what I think about suffering, but I just wanted to bring up one small story: Back in the 1970s, Cardinal O’Connor said that Jews have “a special gift of suffering to give the world.” This so infuriated me that I wrote a letter to the New York Times – which as far as I recall, published it.
Ouch. That’s ugly…
This is a fair summary of the PoE; I personally take the latter approach, all three are true but God can have morally sufficient reasons for allowing any given suffering, much like Alvin Plantinga suggests.
I personally find devine hiddeness a bigger problem for theism.
These two passages killed prayer for me. I’ll explain why after the string is complete.
Luke: “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
John: “If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
Thanks for addressing the reality of suffering in this blog. I agree that it is one of the most compelling issues facing all faiths, and would say that it must also distress even those that claim no faith. To that end, could you clarify how you are defining the key words in these statements? Specifically I mean “all-powerful”, “all-loving”, and “suffering”. In my experience, people see those terms very differently. So what do you mean by these terms? That might help to make sure your readers are on the same page.
Yes they do! And by defining them in certain ways it is possible to get around the problem. Theologians have, for roughly forever, defined God in human terms. We can do things, we love things and people, and we feel pain, sometimes excruciating pain. God’s omniscience means that he knows everything; God’s omnipotence means he can do anything, including violate the laws of physics (though it is often said that he cannot violate the laws of mathematics or the laws of non-contradictoin) (though I should think that could be debatable). Being all loving means that he does not have a mean bone in his body, which I suppose is true by definition. But it means that he wants the very best for the people he created, wants them ot experience good. And suffering means that there is tremendous pain in the world. Some suffering is *easily* explained if God exists (including virtually everything I”ve experienced myself — illness, pain, loss of loved ones too young, divorce, family woes, etc.). Others, in my opnion, not. Children starving to death and experienceing the most horrible imaginable pains from that or illness or birth defects etc., from the very beginning of the human race until today. Many, many millions of them. IMO.
What I wrote exceeds your word limit so I hope it’s OK to split it up in multiple comments. 🙂 I appreciate so much your interviews, debates, and books. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home, began questioning some of what I was taught when I was little, and after taking classes on the New and Old Testaments in college, my conclusions about Jesus and my Christian faith changed in the way yours did. I also consider myself an agnostic. I’d like to believe that a higher intelligence exists in some form; however, I am currently wrestling with the question of suffering.
I would love to hear your thoughts on the following…One thing I find interesting that I haven’t heard you discuss is the idea of mind-matter interaction (that intentional thought, such as visualizing a desired outcome, has an effect on the external world). If you’re familiar, I was wondering what you think of the Global Consciousness Project, and Dean Radin’s research. Dean Radin’s “force of will” research has demonstrated an overall small but statistically significant effect. I wonder if this is how prayer may work – that maybe it is not that there is a personal God that grants what some people pray for and not others, but that the way the universe works involves consciousness having some effect. With the effect usually being small and with there being many factors that affect outcomes, maybe this is why intentional thoughts or prayers sometimes don’t lead to the desired result. If a higher intelligence exists, I tend to think it is not all-powerful. And maybe the capability of saving ourselves from causes of suffering is built into nature through some combination of evolution and conscious intention (???) I don’t know – just some ideas.
I’m afraid I’m not familiar with it. Studies, like this, of course, need substantical independent verification in controlled circumstances.
I’ve recently gotten involved a bit with (liberal) Quakerism. You may be aware that liberal Quakers have some common values, but are non-creedal and vary a lot in their beliefs – many don’t associate with being Christian, and some are nontheists. The common practice of connecting in silence to the light within works for me somehow. As I understand it, some Quakers view connecting with the light not so much as connecting with God but as connecting with goodness and truth. Thank you for any of your thoughts.
Yes, many “spiritual” people without commitment to doctries or traditional ritual practices find Quaker meetings just the thing they are looking for.
In your opinion, what is the most reasonable Christian argument that attempts to justify why an omnibenevolent, omnipotent God would cause so much suffering to righteous people? I see that you mentioned the afterlife, but is there any other Christian argument that to you seems more reasonable?
I”m not sure there’s a good argument. The best position Christians take, in my view, is to say they can’t understand it but they believe in God anyway.