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Loading...About fourteen years ago, my son Derek graduated from high school, and I told him that for his graduation present I would take him anywhere in the world for two weeks. I gave his sister Kelly the same deal two years earlier and she chose Ireland. Derek decided on Greece.
At first I was impressed with the sophistication of his choice. Later I realized that what he really wanted to do was to head to a Greek island and hang out on the nude beaches.
So I struck a deal with him. We’d spend a week on Mykonos. But the first week we’d be on the mainland visiting archaeological sites. He was keen to do that too, and so we did.
I had been to Greece once before and had seen a lot of the main touristy sites. But we went back to them, starting in Athens. Athens is one of my favorite places in the world. I love the food, the atmosphere, the people, and especially the archaeological ruins.
Two of the most famous ancient sites in the city are the Acropolis (where the Parthenon, and other amazing structures, stands) and the Agora, the old marketplace filled with temples and stoa and other buildings. Between the two you can find yet another place, known from the New Testament as the Areopagus (also called Mars Hill).
The Areopagus is most famous in Christian lore as the spot where the Apostle Paul found himself in Acts 17, speaking to a group of Greek philosophers, both Stoics and Epicureans. The place itself is a barren, rocky outcrop that is fairly flat on top, to the Northwest of the Acropolis and downhill from it. There is (and was) nothing on it – no buildings of any kind. In fact there really isn’t much room for any building. It’s just a rugged but reasonably flat rock. Looking up from there you can see the acropolis; looking down in the other direction you can see the agora.
Both the acropolis and the agora contain magnificent, fantastic buildings. The Parthenon is arguably the best known and most glorious structure to have survived for us from antiquity. The agora is where there was such vibrant and important political and social activity. Both were replete with architecturally marvelous structures, amazing statuary, the great glories of ancient Greek civilization. On the Areopagus, on the other hand, there was nothing. It was a rock. Where intellectuals got together and talked. And where Paul first brought his gospel to Athens.
That day when I was on the Areopagus with Derek, I remember…
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Wonderful! But I hope you’ll also remember that what was “lost” included the intellectual and moral *freedom* of untold thousands (millions?) of people over the centuries…people who were taught from childhood to hold beliefs that were *much* more rigid and stultifying than those their “pagan” ancestors had held.
yes indeed, that will be a major point!
One must not forget that even as a democracy the Athenians allowed slavery.
I suppose the difference is that they didn’t invent it….
Considering the sad state of Christianity today and its brutal history over the past 2000 years, I truly wonder if it really was a “triumph.” Jesus weeps !!! You will enjoy your trip to Alexandria.
Bart, thank you for the above; very enlightening. Did your trip to Ireland two years previously make any impression at all, and have you any plans to return? ?
It was *fantastic*. I would love to go back.
Dr. Ehrman, I have two questions, one mundane and one academic.
My academic question is: The ancients saw ritual and superstition as within the domain of religion (or, more accurately, custom), while they saw ethics and cosmology as within the domain of philosophy, but Christianity claimed to subsumed all under its one umbrella, making it possible for men as divergent in worldview as Paul, Philo and Josephus to claim that Judaism (and by extension Christianity) was both a religion (i.e. set of customs) and a philosophy. What role do you think this all-in-one characteristic of Christianity had in its appeal to the masses?
My mundane question is: Are you fluent in Modern Greek as well as ancient Koine Greek?
I”m not sure if it increased the appeal to the masses, but it may have increased its appeal to intellectuals concerned to think about ethics and philosophy! Nope, I don’t know modern Greek.
In Alexandria, you will doubtless see the Bibliotheca Alexandrina, a building more interesting for its architecture than the supposed revival of its Hellenistic forebear.
If you add Cairo, you could also see the site of old Roman Babylon, which IIRC has some churches dating to the fourth century. You could also then hire a car to do a private tour of the Red Sea monasteries where Christian monasticism began.
Sounds like a great itinerary. Will you be making any European speaking events en route?
Nope, just seeing the sites.
My dad took me on a trip to the island of Rhodes in 2010, during which we also took a boat to Marmaris, and then drove a rental car up to Ephesus. One of the best trips of my life!
Came across the following here Bart, you may wish to respond
http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2016/05/07/catholic-scholars-drive-a-new-wave-on-the-new-testament/
“Put simply, the skepticism of Bultmann, Borg, Crossan and Ehrman is out of date. New discoveries have pushed scholarship beyond their fanciful theories and dubious conclusions. The new wave of New Testament scholars readily accept the positive findings of a century’s worth of research, but in the spirit of true scholarship, they have also learned how to be critical of the critics.”
Ha! Well, two points (a) You’ll notice the article doesn’t actually name any “new discoveries” that have disproved what critical scholars are saying and (b) you probably also know that conservative Catholic scholars have *always* doubted the findings of critical scholarship. This is anything *but* new! I’m afraid this is simply a new wave of wishful thinking!
Funny how Christians don’t note how the Jews were critical of the Christian “new revelations” about the Old Testament too!
Are you going to visit any of the sites the Holy Family is said to have passed through in their flight through Egypt?
I’m afraid all that is highly legendary, but there were legends about them ending up in Alexandria….
Interesting point about the thoughts provoked by being in ancient places.
I lived in Paphos, Cyprus 2005-2010, and my daily dawn walk took me to the harbour. There (now the main tourist area, surrounded by the concrete boxes of modern development) was the ancient agora and the excavated remains of a Roman site with its superb mosaics. And a small plaque comemorating the (alleged) site of Paul’s meeting with the Roman governor (maybe the wrong title) as detailed in the NT.
A few hundred yards away, at the side of the main road to the old town, is a large and allegedly ancient tree with handkerchiefs and strips of cloth tied to the branches – a ‘prayer tree’ – still very much in use. Underneath, down a few steps, is a rock-cut chamber. It is said to have been used by early Jews, then Christians. It is unmarked and literally at the edge of the pavement (sidewalk). Judging by the candles, flowers in jamjars, pictures, etc., always present it is still a site of veneration by ordinary local people.
Also interesting was the co-existence with pagan religion still evident today. Just a few miles up the coast is ‘Aphrodite’s Rock’ – the birthplace of Aphrodite. Remains of her temple and gardens are still venerated. And despite the substantial power of the GO church in Cyprus today, it hasn’t completely won out. The annual sea-festival of worship to Aphrodite continues to this day – but now under the auspices of the GO church which calls it ‘Kataklysmos’ and includes throwing a wooden cross into the sea to be recovered by young men swimmers who race for the honour.
Talking to some of the very-locally born and bred people, they had no problem (if they ever thought about it) reconciling GO Christianity and traditional reverence of Aphrodite. Seemed unusual to my Western eyes and conservative Christian (yea, even fundy!) background where it’s much more ‘one or the other’).
Just some thoughts.
Interesting!
Wow! Dr. Ehrman at his best….
You may want to take along Tolstoy’s War and Peace where in the Second Epilogue he delves into the inscrutability of the force or power that causes human history to advance.
If it’s okay with you, I’d like to live vicariously through the month of June.
Sure, why not?
The great libraries of the Greek and Roman worlds are another loss, I suspect Christianity partially to blame.
Somehow, I think your research trip to Europe will be marginally more enjoyable than my last research trip to the campus library.
In all seriousness, best wishes for an enlightening experience!
I think you need an assistant. You know, to pick out wine and food, help out with luggage, transcribe your thoughts, etc. I’d be a happy to go! lol
Seriously, have you ever done this with a class, Professor? I’d tried organize a class trip last year to Israel, but Israel was having a problem with stabbings at the the time so, alas, it failed to get approval. Also, have you ever thought of doing an adult education tour (you probably have done this and I’m just clueless), but I (and I’m sure others) would find it pretty cool to see these sites with you.
Ha! Yes, I’ve traveled to Rome, Greece, Turkey, and Egypt with alumni groups from UNC, giving lectures. Great fun! May do another Turkey trip next year!
I agree, it’s a sad thing… 17 centuries of bloodshed, and persecution in the name of Jesus. I agree with Richard Dawkins, that religion is very harmful to the human race… But it’s interesting to wonder what the world would be like if Christianity had never gotten off the ground !
Also a sad thing that the library at Alexandria was destroyed ! Again, what would the world be like now if scholars had access to that material…
I am enjoying this thread on The Triumph of Christianity and looking forward to hearing about your other books in preparation.
You speak of what was lost. I agree but didn’t Greek culture live on in the church Father’s who at times sound far more like Pagan Greek philosophers than apocalyptic Jews?
Yes, in a transformed state, absolutely, in some sense.
Readers of this website might find “Strange Gods: A Secular History of Conversion” by Susan Jacoby of interest although it presents a somewhat discouraging view of religion. There is a section about the triumph of Christianity over paganism.
Wow! Some great trips to look forward to. Hope you will share your travel stories with us on your return?
Just got back from Rome a couple weeks ago and was blown away by the ruins. You know, you should write a walking tour of Athens from a early-Christianity perspective. I would love that!
Enjoy!
Enough commentary – but just one thing to add: as you think about what was lost with the spread of Christianity, please bear in mind that with the loss of the pagan sensibility went any veneration of the female (I’m not counting the Virgin Mary for obvious reasons!) The Scottish island of Iona, famous now for its Christian monastery, was once a pagan hub with its female religious icons. When St. Columba came from Ireland and settled there with a view to convert the “heathens,” (like my ancestors!) he would allow no female, human or animal, on the island. Patriarchy is what was spread on the arm of Roman Christianity, and women have borne the brunt of that.
DH Lawrence: “The Christian fear of the pagan outlook has damaged the whole consciousness of man.”
Yes, very interesting. But why would you not count Mary? She would seem to run counter to your thesis. And what about those branches of Chrsitianity that did celebrate the feminine?
I don’t count Mary because she is sanitised, de-sexualised, whereas the celebration of the pagan feminine was about life and life-giving. On your travels in Ireland, did you come across the Sheela-na-gig icon that still remains carved on stones from the pagan era (when the church moved in, they would use these carvings in their building structures but would turn them inwards so no one could see them. There are several books about Sheela-na-gig.) In Celtic paganism, the goddess was, interestingly enough, triune, and went through her three phases during a year’s cycle – from maiden to pregnant female to crone, but it was all about fertility and the embracing of sexuality (life), which, you have to admit, is certainly the opposite of orthodox Christianity. I think this is what Lawrence is pointing to in that quote – we don’t need Freud to point out the damage to the human psyche when the sexual is surpressed. As you state in your book “Lost Christianities,” the early sects of Christianity that might have celebrated the divine feminine were not the ones that resolved into the orthodoxy.
Hi,
When you have a chance, would you tell us what exactly you do when you go to these countries for research? I am assuming that you go to archaeological sites, of course (you even said it). Does that provide you with new evidence or that inspires you or both? Do you go to libraries and read other books? Do you meet other scholars? Is there new material that you never had access to in these places? And finally, don’t you need someone to carry your paperwork?
Thanks!
Yes, my idea is to go strictly to archaeological sites and look at ruins and buildings built out of ruins. No need for me to go to libraries, as I can get what I need in NC. I don’t have any particular access to unknown places, just a set of questions that have not occurred to most people. And yes, I should take applications for paper-carriers!
Just adjacent to the Areopagus is the Pnyx – the open-air assembly where the Greeks created democracy, on the basis of the ideals of equality and freedom of speech.
Arguably that’s something which has left a far more universal and lasting legacy than Christianity. As well as those Greek ideals being of far more significance in say, the US Constitution, they now reach way beyond the confines of Western Culture into India and Japan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnyx
I can also recommend the little old open-air cinema near there Bart. They usually show classic American films from the 1950’s starring Marilyn Monroe or Cary Grant. Slightly bizarre, but charming.
In 1994 I was in Athens and after viewing the Acropolis and Agora, I had some scrawled directions to where Plato’s academy used to be (this was pre Google Maps of course!). After leaving the far end of the agora, I walked through endless apartment blocks of bland sprawl, got totally lost, (street names in Greek alphabet so I couldn’t even figure out where I was), nobody spoke or could read English, and I finally gave up and walked back to the Agora, getting lost several more times on the way. I didn’t even have the luck of a cab passing by to get me out of there!
I suspect you’ve seen the movie “Agora.” Just on the off chance you haven’t seen it, it would be great to watch before going to Alexandria, as it is set there in the late 4th Century and is about the friction between the Pagans and Christians and has a scene with the sacking of the Library. It also has a great scene at the beginning that shows how an unimpressive event gets embellished into a miracle over time: Christians are taunting a pagan priest to walk over hot coals. There is the odd small lick of flame between the coals, but nothing too serious. The Christian quickly walks across and as one would expect, nothing much happens. But the Pagan doesn’t really want to try, so the Christians shove him around until he falls down on the coals, and his cloak catches fire and he gets up and runs away. Later in the movie, a boy asks the coal walking Christian “are you the one who performed the miracle?” I think that could certainly demonstrate how the telling of a tale over time can result in embellishments and exaggerations, making the mundane become the miraculous.
I have the movie but haven’t watched it yet! I’m planning on talking about Hypatia in the book…
I am an American with a strong Greek heritage. My father was from Athens and my grandfather was a Cypriot Greek born in Alexandria, Egypt so your trip holds a lot of interest for me. I would love to hear your thoughts on what branch of Christianity is closer to the “original” Christianity – Orthodox or Catholic or even Protestant. Most of Paul’s letters were to Greek churches so my thought has always been, at least in the beginning, that the eastern Christians were closer to the original incarnation. I have had many conversations with Bible thumpers here in the States who dismiss Greek Orthodox as a “different” religion or somehow not valid and I always thought that to be an odd sentiment knowing that Greece is where Christianity took root. Oddly enough, I was raised Baptist so I don’t know a lot about Orthodox Christianity (I’m at least agnostic now if not fully atheist. This stuff continues to fascinate me, however). Thanks and enjoy your time in the πατρίδα.
My sense is that none of the current forms of Christianity are particularly close to that of the original followers of Jesus .
did christians destroy images in greece or anywhere ?
Yes indeed. I ahve a discussion of this in my book Triumph of Christianity; they were especially known for *mutilating* statues, knocking off ears, noses, penises; lips; hands; gouging out eyes. In their view this proved that idols cold not hear, smell, reproduce, talk, do anything, or see anything.