In my previous post I pointed out that lots of people — friends and foes — misconstrue what I say in Misquoting Jesus. It’s a particular problem with people who want to attack my views, often without seeing what I actually say. Sometimes when someone tells me what they object to in my book I ask them if they’ve read it. “Well, no, but I heard about it.” Sigh….
Even scholars — including scholars I’m friends with — have said things about my views that are absolutely not true (e.g., a common one, that I became an agnostic once I realized how many differences there were among the manuscripts of the NT. Good grief. Where do they get such ideas from?? I knew about massive differences in the manuscripts when I was a *fundamentalist*!!)
Anyway, what do I talk about in the book, and why have people found it objectionable? Here are some reflections I had on the issues when I thought about them some years ago.
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One of the most interesting things in the rather loud and vociferous denunciations of my book Misquoting Jesus by conservative Christian scholars is that rarely (I can’t remember a single instance, in fact – maybe someone else knows of some; if so, let me know!) did they dispute any of the facts I marshal in the book. So far as I know, the facts are not in dispute.
There were several books written in response to my book, including one called Misquoting Truth; another called Misquotes in Misquoting Jesus; and another called Lost in Transmission. These books were all written to assure people (mainly believers) that the changes of the New Testament in the surviving copies are not overly significant.
Before getting to the point of significance, let me say something about the facts that I marshal:
- We have something like 5500 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, some of them tiny fragments; some of them entire, complete copies.
- The earliest of these manuscripts date, probably, from the first part of the second century (some decades after the originals). These, however, are only fragmentary scraps. We do not get anything like full pages of this that or the other NT writing until the early 3rd century, and we do not get full and complete manuscripts until the middle of the fourth century.
- Of all our manuscripts, 94% date from the ninth century or later – that is, from 800 – 1400 years after the originals were put in circulation.
- We don’t have any originals, or copies of the originals, or almost certainly copies of copies of the originals. Our copies are later generation copies.
- We don’t know how many differences (scribal alterations) there are in these thousands of manuscripts, but there are lots. Some scholars say 300,000, some say 400,000. Since I wrote the book a new scholarly article has appeared claiming that there are more likely about 500,000.
- On the positive front, the vast majority of these differences in our manuscripts are unimportant, insignificant, and matter for nothing more than to show that scribes in antiquity could spell no better than students can today.
- But some of the differences are important for the interpretation of a verse, a passage, or even an entire book.
- Scholars continue to debate hundreds of places of variation in the text. In some places these debates will probably never cease. There are some passages where we probably will never know what the author’s own copy said.
So those are the facts, and no one on the planet who knows what they’re talking about would ever deny any of them. So if those are the facts, and that is what I talk about in Misquoting Jesus, what is there to object to?
My sense is that….
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Good post as usual. A friend of mine (devout Christian) and I (agnostic) were talking about this very point. I asked him why it bothered Christians he knew but not himself. He looked at me and smiled and said that he felt that these Christians were of weaker faith than they knew. “Their faith is absolutely tied to the inerrancy of Scripture. Their world would be rocked if they admitted flaws.” He had made a similar comment about these people’s abhorrence of the theory of evolution.
He and I spent many an hour talking about your books. I hope that he reads your blog but sadly we lost touch.
300-500000 scribal alterations don’t change the meaning of a manuscript?
That’s a lot of alterations!
Fascinating post thanks.
Well, when the majority of them are spelling differences, that’s important too! (As I say in the book.)
regarding the woman taken in adultery story in John, there is a wikipedia page on this topic in which it is stated that the story was known and commented on extensively by Augustine of Hippo around 400 CE or so. However i’m sure that Professor Erhman in one of his talks stated that it only appeared in bibles approx. 1000 years after Jesus’s time! I appreciate wikipedia is not always reliable so could you comment on this alleged early knowledge of the story. Thanks
No, I’ve never said that! It first shows up in an important manuscript produced sometime around the year 400 (codex Bezae).
Also, if I recall correctly, Greek has very free word order (unlike English, which is fairly tyrannical when it comes to word order). This is because in Greek, every word has markings that show what role it plays – so you can write Dog-SUBJ bites Man-OBJ and Man-OBJ bites Dog-SUBJ and they would mean the same thing.
In your research of the manuscripts, have you come across the Levi passage found in Mark 2:14 and Luke 5:27-28, in any of the Gospel of Matthew manuscripts? I find it particularly strange that the Levi passage is not in the Gospel Matthew and that Matthew, the character, is named a tax collector and not in the Gospels of Mark or Luke.
The ancient view was that the man had two names and he preferred Matthew, so when he was writing his own Gospel he used his preferred name. That is, for most scholars, a bit of a stretch….
MJ is more than just a presentation of facts. You also explain your personal, Christian journey. Not having the original autographs was a problem for you and you questioned whether someone who couldn’t read the Bible in its original languages could truly understand what God wanted them to know. You also say that since God didn’t take care to preserve the original words, it was not inspired by God.
The same setup is done for the Heaven and Hell book. One reviewer said he thought it was about yourself and how you changed your views regarding heaven and hell with the conclusion being there is none.
At the end of the day, I feel that each person is responsible for formulating their own views; however, taking the reader step-by-step through your personal history could sway a reader’s opinion. Without your influence, a reader may come to different conclusions. Also, I do wonder why you chose to write MJ after becoming an atheist, rather than, when you were still a Christian. Wouldn’t it be more important to convey this information as a believer?
Why not let the facts speak for themselves and take yourself out of it?
Sorry if this comes across as overly harsh, but these questions deserve an answer, and it’s important that people don’t conflate your views for their own.
a)People enjoy sushi and write a book about it or get dumped by the girlfriend and write a song about it. The amzing personal Journey of dr. Ehrman is definitely worth a few pages of his book and it actually made the content of the book so very interesting, tangible and relevant from the get-go.
Did it make the book more influential and thought-provoking? good. However the facts presented in the book were in noway contingent on his personal journey.
b) I find dr. Ehrman’s arguments convincing not because I like him( I do) or not because he is an excellent scholar(he is). I accept his conclusions ( although tentatively) because no matter how many Christian apologists I listen to I still can’t refute or defeat Ehrman’s arguements.
c)Why didn’t dr. Ehrman write misquoting Jesus earlier ?By the same token you might as well ask Motzart what took him so long to compose ” Le nozze di Figaro”? all the notes and musical instruments he needed were there in front him all the time or why it took long time for Einstein to develope his therory of relativity? gravity, space and time were there in front him all the time.
>> Why not let the facts speak for themselves and take yourself out of it?
If I may please: I believe our goodly host presents the facts inasmuch as one may present facts about the past.
Free is the reader, with those facts, to do as s/he pleases.
And, methinks it a good thing that the presenter of facts is transparent about her/his opinions.
“Misquoting Jesus” actually changed my prospective on life, religion, and religious thought. I realized that if I was taught wrong I did not have to teach wrong.
Dr. Ehrman,
I can say with confidence exactly what the issue is that fundamentalist have with your book. It is the thing that myself and countless others we’re so upset about, and it’s the simple fact that you talked about it! It really is that simple. I spent years at a conservative Bible College getting a degree in the Bible, and it never once came up! We never talked about any of the issues you raise. The best comparison to me is magic. Anyone who takes the time to study illusion knows the basic concepts a performing magic (i.e., slight of hand, misdirection). Anyone watching a magician perform should know that it’s really an illusion but the fun is in thinking it’s real magic . Conservative Christians feel like you are stopping the show and saying, ” it’s not real”! I know this comparisons is silly but I promise this is how many of us felt when we read your book.
In the end, I realized that the truth really does matter! In your own journey did you ever harbor resentment towards the church for not being more straightforward?
Thanks
Oh yes…..
[private\ should probably be [private].
It’s fantastic to be getting this level of detail and engagement day in and day out.
Thank you.
hear hear! I second that!
It seems at present that the tiny P52 fragments are, though copies, as close as we can get to the earnest texts. Still kind of tantalisingly close (even allowing for the range of P52’s possible dates) to the earliest versions of John if John was written at the very end of the first century. I’ve always found it a kind of beautiful irony that a complete text of one side of P52 would include the words of Pilate’s question: “what is truth?”.
People get all worked up about manuscript differences in ancient texts of the Bible, I suppose, because they (wrongly) think so much is at stake in faithful transmission for them. But for anybody working in any field involving ancient texts, manuscript differences are the most normal thing in the world. The differences make the ancient variants more interesting, not less!
Unrelated question. What do you think of Mark Goodacre’s arguments against the existence of Q? I’m no specialist, but I find the debate about the text interesting. If you’ve written about this in detail elsewhere, or can point me to a good response to his arguments, I’d appreciate it!
Not sure how closely you’ve looked at P52, but it’s a tiny scrap. It doesn’t have any bearing on whether the manuscripts of the New Testaent have lots of differences in them. But I agree, the only reason it matters for *most* people is because there is this special sense that the NT is different from all other books.
I lay out the basic arguments for Q in my book The New Testament: A Historial Introduction…. Mark makes the best arguments that one can make, but I don’t find them convincing. Most scholars find Q the more convincing hypothesis.
Thanks for the reply on Q. For the rest, I was just making some very general comments. I’ll stay on-topic next time.
I find it interesting (and frustrating) that you seem to have to remake (re-post, reaffirm?) this response every couple years. It’s not like you’ve ever changed position on these things.
I will disagree with your 2nd response, though. I think variants can make a big difference in theology. Christians have been picking and choosing passages to suit their personal needs since they started codifying them. Stumbling on a variant that gives them fuel to advance some new cause and they will scour the rest of the text to find other passages to support this new position. Theology changes to suit the cause just as often as causes are shaped by theology.
You need to remember that the readership of this blog is not at all what it was four years ago.
Let’s say there was a new manuscript found tomorrow, by Paul (and scholars agree that it was from Paul – it has his writing style and his theology) – do you think it would be added to the Bible?
Absolutely not. Would never happen. The Bible is the book, for Christians, that God handed over as his Scripture. It’s not a book that is meant to contain everything any apostle ever wrote.
I suppose I could mischievously argue that, were it not for some of the textual alterations Dr Ehrman highlights, Christianity would/could today be more docetic or adoptionist or gnostic than it otherwise is. And therefore doctrine has been affected but then it is also arguable that the major Church Councils during the first Christian centuries have had the most significant effect on doctrine.
I find it surprising that “literalists” do not even bother to consider that after Jesus said and did things, there must be someone who had to write it down. and since there were no scribes among the followers, nor did they hire any, the manuscripts had to be written after Jesus said it, even when he was alone praying ,,,, in Aramaic. That was probably long after what he said and did ,,, even after his death ,,,, and even long after that. THEN ,,,,,, long after this ,,, the Europeans, who were hostile to the Jews, their ancient tradition,interpretation of the Hebrew Bible and culture, appeared and translated the texts into a completely different language (Greek), and probably a different conceptual framework of understanding.
When the often hateful Romans / Greeks took the stories from a source we do not have,,, VERY long after Jesus said and did what is written ,,,, the question is not only if it was quoted correctly ,,,,,,,, but another equally interesting question is whether we Europeans really understood the meaning completely when we took over the stories.
It is really hard to understand the controversy over your book.
We cannot know for sure( certainty) I agree. But how do we separate facts from certainty ? For example, you are a non believer and yet believe Jesus existed. There are many, in particular Dan Barker, who like yourself, went through a de-conversion and believes only 10-20 % probability Jesus existed and concludes for himself he * did not exist*. How could you and him reconcile your differences ? It becomes personal opinion. Nietzsche said, ” There are no facts, only interpretations”.
Just wondering if you feel my comment not worth responding or controversial or missed?
No, if it’s relevant and not snarky, I post it.
It is very, very rare for someone, even a non-believer, to think Jesus did not exist; and it’s not a matter of “personal opinion.” Like every historical question, it is a matter of evidence. Surely no one would say that it’s a matter of personal opinion if Lincoln, Charlamagne, or Pope Gregory existed!
When I was a fundamentalist one of my constantly nagging anxieties was the disparity between the Bible as the inerrant word of God and its inconsistencies. I think many of my fellow Christians simply decided to look at it as an expensive Scottish sweater… the irregularities in the garment are not to be taken as defects but rather add to the value of the item. And that was that. The Lord works in mysterious ways and inspiring a text which did not fit together was one of those mysteries you just accept. I eventually couldn’t accept it anymore. But I’ve never met a fundamentalist who was shaken by it. Bart, not that you’re trying to make people rethink their faith, but do you run across Christians who’ve read your books and admit serious doubt about their belief?
All the time! There are many, many people like this — not just with respect to my books, but generally throughout society.
I mentioned this to Bart some time ago, but I’ll repeat it here as it bears on what’s bothering JLoSlo.There was some research published in Science several yeaers ago looking for other psychological differences between conservative and liberal personalities with respect to changing their minds when presented with irrefutable facts that contradicted their firmly held beliefs. All personalities were impervious to changing their minds, but conservatives were distingusihed by digging in their heels even more.
You conclude by saying we’d need more evidence than is “currently available.” Are you aware of evidence that is currently unavailable, such as the conspiracy theory that the Vatican is hiding the New Testament books found in the Dead Sea Scrolls? The Dead Sea Scrolls are remarkable for confirming the accuracy of the Old Testament. The OT today matches closely the OT from thousands of years ago. Those copies were made about 20 miles from where Jesus of Nazareth preached and at about the same time. Could there have been New Testament books also found but that were secreted away, while modern popular culture attempts to decipher the Da Vinci Code and identify the holy grail?
Oh yes, I’m well aware of unfounded conspiracy theories. But no, the Vatican is not hiding NT books any more than it is hiding aliens. If anyone thinks they *are* hiding aliens, well, I can’t help them there…. The Dead Sea Scrolls also confirm the *inaccuracy* of the OT. The form of the book of Jeremiah from the Scrolls is 15% shorter than the Hebrew text that gets translated today.
In your debates, or personal discussions, which argument is more common: a) the original documents were perfect but people’s free will allowed them to introduce insignificant changes over time, or b) the current versions are still perfect, but “apparent” contradictions are just that: “apparent” not real, and can be reconciled with God-given wisdom? Or, some other explanation for the discrepancies and textual variants?
Both! But with one proviso: rarely does anyone actually argue current versions are “perfect,” except fundies who prefer the King James. Normally everyone admits there might be manuscript problems, but that mnost of the so-called discrepancies actually aren’t there.
Second, if one wants say that no matter which manuscript of the NT a person chooses, she or he will have the same theology, I would completely agree. But that’s not because there are not lots of differences in our manuscripts. It’s because people tend to hold their theological views by establishing them from an entire range of passages and perspectives (some of which don’t come from the Bible).
This is EXACTLY the point that needs to be made. The TEXTS, that is, SCRIPTURE, was NEVER to sole authority of what the Truth is. Rather, it is both Scripture and the Lived Tradition of the faith within the Community. THIS is what determined the orthodox Christian beliefs that became traditional Christianity. It is those, mostly Protestant, erring teachers who try to assert the non-historical view that it is only Scripture. And, it is why so many people with that almost magical view of Scripture either hold onto their faith by shutting down their critical thinking faculties or lose their faith altogether. It is a sad way to approach embracing the Living God and rarely works in the long run.
You mentioned a new scholarly article since you wrote Misquoting Jesus that says there are 500,000 variants. I’m curious, who is the scholar you’re referencing here?
On a personal note, I’m a recovering fundamentalist Christian who attended an evangelical seminary and I wanted to say how much I appreciate your work and the blog posts. I recently reread Misquoting Jesus and it was a much different experience than when I read it as a fundamentalist Christian. It’s almost as if they poisoned the well before I actually read the book.
I believe it is Peter Gurry.
What about Textus Receptus? is it safe to say most scholars dont seriously consider it as even remotely close to what an autograph of anything was? is there any evidence stuff like the disputed passage in 1 john 5 about the trinity, or the ending of mark, or the woman taken in the act in John 8 or my personal favorite the Matt 24:36 omission of “nor the son”… is there ANY evidence for any of that early?
in the forward of jesus interrupted you said something to the effect that christians are ignorant of what the bible says, and completely clueless about what is being taught in theological semiaries over the last couple hundred years… man thats so true. people i talk to cant get their heads around the idea that the KJV is a NEW document from the NT text perspective and the others are the old ones lol.
Oh, it’s remotely close — not RADICALLY different. But the nuances matter a lot. Each of the problems you mention have different forms of attestation, but there is almost universal agreement among critical scholars about these passages.
I came across a couple terms I’m not real familiar with: Byzantine text vs Alexandrian text. Is this more or less TR vs Nestle Aland respectively? The argument was that somehow Origen was essentially the father of the Alexandrian text to support some of his heretical views. Can you clarify it a bit?
My Master’s thesis was on the Byzantine text and my PhD dissertation on the Alexandrian. Yes, VERY ROUGHLY speaking the Byzantine text is closely related to the Textus Receptus and the Alexandrian to the modern reconstructed text of Nestle Aland. But no, Origen had nothing to do with it (despite what some scholars of the 19th century and earlier claimed); and it doe not support any of his heretical views. And in fact his views were not *considered* heretical until long after his death.
As I have heard you say many times, Jesus died on Friday and risen early Sunday morning. How do you get, what Jesus said, himself, that he would be in the grave three and three night. Either he didn’t, or he’s a liar. I get one day, and two nights. I know days were measured different then to day. They were from sunset, to sunset, If you figure the preparation day, for Passover was on Wednesday of that week (which it was), Jesus was crucified that day, of the cross that evening, in the tomb, Thursdays was a High Sabbath, Feast of Unleavened Bread. Ladies could not buy or prepare the spices that day, Friday they bought and prepared them, next day (Saturday) was the weekly Sabbath, they could go to the tomb to anoint the body, Jesus was risen before sunset Saturday, therefore was not there Sunday morning, As was told, He is not here, he has risen. Which comes out to exactly right, and makes perfect sense. Where am I wrong at this? Second: How could Jesus have any genecology, if conceived by the Holy Spirit?
There are other instances of this, to indicate that in Jewish reckoning any part of a day counts as a full 24-hour day (therefore day and night). In any event, I don’t think the historical Jesus actually predicted his resurrection (though the Gospels certanily *claim* he did!)
Last night I watched a program on PBS (a repeat from last September) about the Vatican during Easter Week of 2019. One person they talked to was one of the Pope’s translators (of his live service). The sister talked about how Italian wasn’t the Pope’s first language, and sometimes he choose the wrong word. So she would correct it as she translated. So was she misquoting the Pope? Or editing?
She also mentioned that Italian wasn’t her first language either!
It occurred to me, when I read your statement that “Our copies are later generation copies,” that many readers (including me) can lose sight of the fact that what you are referring to as “copies” are ATTEMPTED copies done by hand (and, as you say, sometimes a change was purposely made). Since the photocopier was invented decades ago, we think of a “copy” of a manuscript as an exact, photographic reproduction, so it would be ideal if there were a different term for the result of manual “copying,” to avoid that incorrect mental image. Nowadays, an imaged or digital copy of a copy of a copy still says the exact same thing as the original, but before the printing press or woodblock or whatever, every new “copy” was an opportunity for something to come out at least slightly different.
Yes, copies do not need to be perfect to be copies; if they are perfect, they are “perfect copies.” But before modern technology, most copies were not perfect, often far from perfect.
Regarding what Jesus actually said.
I’d like to start out with an analogy. That being, there doesn’t seem to be any disagreement among
U.S. citizens regarding the actual words of our Constitution. (I believe we have the original someplace).
Yet the various and often times sharply conflicting interpretations of the same are literally all over the map.
My comment would be: If everyone accepted your scholarship and views of the facts regarding Jesus’
sayings and how the New Testament was put together etc., wouldn’t that still leave the issue of how to interpret these facts.
I’m not sure that any Christian denomination let alone any individuals would be in any more agreement than U. S. citizens are with regard to the Constitution. And I suppose, compounding the problem, my pocket U. S. Constitution has a mere 38 pages, whereas my Bible has 1504 pages.
Prof Ehrman,
If the canonization of the NT occurred in the 4th century, did the discovery of manuscripts afterwards, especially after the 9th century (where tremendous volumes were subsequently discovered) alter or introduce changes in the canonized version. If there were changes, did they include any significant ones. Basically, my question is contrasting the canonized version (AD 397) against later manuscripts?
The number of changes made in the manuscripts, either by accident or purpose, became significantly fewer once they were almost everywhere considered to be Scripture. Changes still happened, but much more rarely. What continued was the copying of earlier copies that themselves were different from each other.
Prof Ehrman, thank you for the feedback. A follow up please.
So as Scripture became canonized, was there a unanimous ecumenical agreement on the text like that which occurred in Nicea 325 (on the position of the nature of Christ) considering the varying differences amongst the Greek manuscripts and the various theological views that developed over the period. Or did the Romans (Church) leave the wording to what people perceived or they took an entrenched position on what the text is as was done in the case of the books that formed the canon?
Reference
Prof Ehrman,
If the canonization of the NT occurred in the 4th century, did the discovery of manuscripts afterwards, especially after the 9th century (where tremendous volumes were subsequently discovered) alter or introduce changes in the canonized version. If there were changes, did they include any significant ones. Basically, my question is contrasting the canonized version against later manuscripts?
Bart
The number of changes made in the manuscripts, either by accident or purpose, became significantly fewer once they were almost everywhere considered to be Scripture. Changes still happened, but much more rarely. What continued was the copying of earlier copies that themselves were different from each other.
There never was an ecumenical council of the church that ratified the canon until the Council of Trent in the 16th century. It was a matter of consensus rather than vote.
Just a random thought from an inter-galactic passerby:
“No, in fact I don’t know. And EITHER can anyone else.” (see in the blog).
Does that mean: alternatively someone else can? A typo or intentional? Let’s evaluate in a few millenia.
Irony, that textual errors when looked at in the overall context can be reconciled. God, even though He may not exist, has a sense of humour.
Regarding; what Jesus actually said.
I’d like to start out with an analogy, that being; there doesn’t seem to be any disagreement among Americans regarding the actual words of our Constitution. (I believe we have the original someplace). Yet the various and sundry interpretations of the same are literally all over the map.
My question would be; If everyone accepted your scholarship and views of the facts regarding Jesus’ sayings and how the New Testament was put together, wouldn’t that still leave the issue of how to interpret these facts?
I’m not sure that any Christian denominations let alone any individuals would be in any more agreement in this instance than U. S. citizens are with regard to the Constitution.
Yes indeed. History is NEVER a matter of pure facts. They cannot be discussed apart from interpretation. Just getting the words right is the first step. A crucial one, but it won’t get you to where you’re wanting to go.
So , What we are certain about NT text? , and what is the “sort” of our knowledge about the text
The first question would take a book. I’d suggest maybe reading Metzger’s Text of the New Testament, if you’re really interestied. And I don’t know what hte second question means, but if I’m guessing right, then the sort of knowledge is historical knowledge.
I mean if our knowledge isn’t “certainty” so it is…? This lead us to a very important question , what is the category of knowledge in fields like textual criticism and historical analysis(ancient history) can we deny or prove something and to any degree ?
It’s like most things. How many stars are in the galaxy?
I’ll say this just once, and but I’ll say it loud:
HOLY MOLY, MAN, YOU RESPOND TO EVERYONE HERE WITH WARMTH AND RESPECT. BOTH THE ACADEMY AND THE REST OF THE WORLD ARE ENRICHED BY SUCH CONFIDENT HUMILITY, AND I MYSELF AM DEEPLY ENCOURAGED.
Thanks!
If I may, let’s misquote Moses for a little ????. Evidently, some folks have just learned that the Leningrad Codex varies a bit from whatever most English bibles use as a text for the O/T. No surprise at all to me. In my humble opinion, many times LXX and Qm texts agree in content vs some version of MT. Wouldn’t this be verifiable evidence that the 2nd C manuscripts are less “misquoted” or corrupt than the MT? Why are modern English versions so hesitant (with the exception of our dear NRSV) to use the 2nd C stuff in the main text instead of relegating it to the footnotes?
Not sure what you mean by 2nd C stuff. Do you mean the Dead Sea Scrolls? Most of them are too fragmentary to be of much use, but translators certainly take them very seriously into account.
Dr Bart ..
In order to detect omitted and added words and verses in The NT : what tools are required and what Methodology must be followed?
It is an entire discipline, called textual criticism. Look the term up ont he blog and you’ll see a bunch of discussions. For a book lengh treatment, see Bruce Metzger, The Text of the NT.