Two things have happened to me this week that have made me think rather intensely about the path I’ve taken in life, and how radically it has swerved from the paths of others who were like me at the age of 20. I emphasize “who were like me.” The reality is that the path I was on already at 20 was (now I see) extremely weird, and to outsiders looks more than a little bizarre. I was a hard-core evangelical Christian dedicated to ministry for the sake of the gospel. Not exactly what most 20-year olds (including any of my many high school friends) were doing at the time. If ever I want a conversation-stopper at a cocktail party, all I need do is say something about my past.
Still, given that as my starting point, what happened next is even more highly unusual. And I was abruptly reminded it of it this week, twice. First, on Monday I had a radio/podcast debate here in London on “Premier Christian Radio” (it is the leading Christian radio station in England) (not that it has a lot of competition, but it is indeed a high class operation) with another scholar of the New Testament, Peter Williams, one of the world’s experts on ancient Syriac as it relates to the Bible (both OT and NT), former professor at the University of Aberdeen and current head of Tyndale House in Cambridge: http://legacy.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/peter-williams. Peter is the author of Can We Trust the Gospels? and C S Lewis vs the New Atheists.
I have known Pete for years; he is a committed evangelical Christian with a view of the infallibility of the Bible. Our debate was on the question of whether the Gospels are historically reliable (a topic of frequent recurrence on this blog, obviously) (some bloggers may think “interminable” recurrence). He thinks there is not a single mistake in the Gospels, of any kind. I think there are. You’ve heard this kind of debate before, so I won’t be recounting the ins and outs (although they were quite different from those you’ve seen before; still, it won’t matter for this post).
The second thing that happened is that I received a Facebook post from a former friend (I emphasize “former” since we apparently are no longer friendly) and classmate of mine from my Moody Bible Institute days (mid 70s), in which he lambasted the fellow alumni from my graduating class for holding me in any kind of esteem. The implication of his lambast was that I’m the enemy of the truth and no one should respect me or my views. I haven’t talked with this fellow for over 40 years, but last I knew we were friends, on the same floor in the dorm and the same basketball team. OK, I couldn’t hit a jump shot, but still, is that reason to be upset four decades later?
In any event, these two events made me think hard about one issue in particular, one that I keep coming back to in my head, in my life, and, occasionally, on this blog: why is it that some people are willing to change their minds about what they hold most dear and important in their lives and other people retain their same views, come hell or high water? Why do some people explore options and think about whether they were originally “right” or not (about religion, personal ethics, social issues, politics, etc.), and other people cling tenaciously to the views they were given when they were 14 years old? It’s an interesting question.
Because I changed my views on something near and dear to me and my then-friends, I’m a persona non grata in the circles I used to run around in. And granted, I have zero desire (OK, far less than zero) to run around in them now. But I don’t feel any animosity toward my former friends, or think they’re going to roast in hell because of their views, and wish that torment would begin sooner than later. I understand why they do (toward me), but it’s sad and disheartening.
Let me be clear, my (current) scholar-friend Peter Williams and I are on very good terms (after our debate he bought me lunch and we had a lovely talk about his current research projects): there’s no animosity there or wish for me to speed the process of passing off my mortal coil, at all. Though I bet if you press him he would regretfully inform you that I probably will be roasting in hell. Still, that’s OK; it’s what he thinks.
What I’m more interested in is why I would have changed my mind and others like him absolutely don’t. Even scholars. Their views significantly deepen, become more sophisticated, more nuanced – but the views don’t change. (My sense of my former classmates at Moody – at least the ones I hear about – is that their views don’t even deepen or grow more sophisticated; they literally think pretty much the same thing as they did when they were mid-teenagers, only now with more conviction and passion).
The reason I find the whole matter sad is almost entirely personal (I guess sadness by definition is). My former evangelical friends and current evangelical debate partners think I’m an enemy of the truth, when I’ve spent almost my entire weird journey trying to come to the truth. And so far as I can tell, they haven’t. I’m not trying to be ungenerous, but it does seem to me to be the reality.
I’ll try to put it in the most direct terms here: how is it at all plausible, or humanly possible, that someone can question, explore, look into, consider the beliefs they were taught as a young child (in the home, in church, in … whatever context) and after 40 years of thinking about it decide that everything they were taught is absolutely right? The views *they* were taught, out of the sixty trillion possible views out there, are absolutely right? The problem with these particular views (of evangelical Christianity) is that if they are indeed right, everyone else in the known universe is wrong and going to be tormented forever because of it.
I know most Christians don’t think this: I’m just talking about this particular type of Christian. And they don’t seem to see how strange it is that they are right because they agree with what they were taught as young children. Yes, they don’t see it that way. They think they are right because they agree with the Bible which comes from God so they agree with God and I (and everyone else on the planet) disagree with God. But the reality is that this is the view they were handed as young kids.
I realize these are very old questions. When we were evangelicals we puzzled over the question of how God could punish people for eternity for not “accepting Christ” when they had never even heard of him. Unfortunately, we concluded that we weren’t sure how he would do that, but we were pretty sure he would.
Most of the human race, of course, thinks the very idea is ludicrous. But what I’m puzzled by is not *that*, but by the fact that thinking human beings (as opposed to non-thinking ones) can actually still subscribe to such nonsense. And it’s a troubling idea to me precisely because those are the roots I come from.
This is not an issue for most blog members, but possibly for some. I have a few more reflections on it – specifically with respect to my debate – that I think I’ll reflect on in the next post. (I’ll get back to the authorship of the letter of James! But for now this is on my mind.)
Members of the blog have full access to five posts a week on issues connected with the New Testament and the history of early Christianity. Join, and you can too! Every penny of your membership fee will go straight to charity.
I have been a member of the “Unbelievable?” Facebook group, which is the Facebook group of Premier Christian Radio, for almost 4 years now. It was being a member of that group that solidified my conviction that Christians rely on faith alone, and will use anything they can get their hands on as evidence.
I’ve thought a lot about this issue too. One big reason is whether you were brought up in it from birth. The programming is there from day one. The social aspect is another. Their entire extended families are in it. Then there are the scare stories of those who leave the faith. The terrible lives they now lead. Then there’s fear of hell. That’s a powerful one. All these and more conspire together.
There is the story they all believe that life without God is meaningless. Ever listen to WLC? It’s an infantile version of reality, and Conservative scholars just get more sophisticated in their defense of it, but at base Conservative Evangelicalism is all about Daddy and big Brother taking care of me against big bad Satan and this nasty old world. The meaning-giving system must be protected at all costs.
Dr. Ehrman, I appreciate your story, so I bring mine and have two questions.
I am from Mexico and my family is catholic and I was raised as one. But my family also taught me to be critical of all things and read a lot (I have a doctorate in biochemistry) so I do not believe almost anything about religion, I don´t know if I believe in god, but I think religion does a lot of good to people and my family is ok with my disbelief (or however you describe me). But my wife’s family converted to a fundamentalist evangelical religion so you can guess the problems that come with that. Firstly they tried to convert me but they know that I know a lot more of the bible and history than them (in a great part thanks to you) so now they are kind of afraid of me. It hurts me how much they fear the end of the world and money is taken from them. It worries me that their children are taken off from school and get homeschooled just because they don´t accept even the idea that homosexuals or people of other religions can be good people. It gets me angry that I am seen as an antichrist that is dooming their daughter (my wife) although I respect religions and recognize the goods religions do and I only respond when I am questioned.
It is kind of a great mess and difficult to stay in the right position. My questions are 1. Did I bore you? If so I am sorry for that. and 2. Do your books Misquoting Jesus and Forged are to be translated soon to Spanish to be sold massively In Mexico?
1. Not at all! 2. I don’t know! I thought Misquoting was in Spanish, but maybe not.
Misquoting Jesus was tranlated into spanish with the title “Jesús No Dijo Eso”. In fact it was the second Bart’s book I bougt (just behind “Cristianismos Perdidos” -Lost Christianities- I found in a second hand seller by chance and read without have ever known about the existence of mr. Ehrmann)
I don’t know if it is avalaible in Mexico, in fact, in Spain most of them are only avalaible in used books stores.
In spanish are also avalaible:
– “¿Dónde está Dios? El problema del sufrimiento humano” (Gods Problem):
– “Verdades y Mentiras del Código Da Vinci” (Truth and Fiction in The Da Vinci Code)
– “Pedro, Pablo y María Magdalena” (Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene)
– “Jesús, el Profeta Judío Apocalíptico” (Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium.)
– “El evangelio de Judas” (The Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot)
Wow! Thanks!
thank you a lot, very helpful
thank you Dr,
Several others have given helpful responses!
It looks like some of the Ehrman oeuvre is out in Mexico:
https://listado.mercadolibre.com.mx/bart-ehrman
and Spanish in general:
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_Ehrman#Traducidas_al_castellano
See AstaKask’s post (below) about a book “Mistakes were made… but not by me” by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson. Seems to me that may help your family see where a family relationship that should be kept good is going wrong? They don’t have to agree with you; but they also don’t need to try and get you to agree with them.
They crazy thing is if a family member married someone from a completely different religion (say Hindu) they’d probably manage that better!!!
Sincere best wishes and good luck! I hope your wife can manage the pressure.
In the book “Mistakes were made… but not by me” by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson use a triangle to illustrate how small decisions can lead to big differences. Suppose you and your friend start out at the top of the pyramid, close together. Then you come to an identical situation – say, whether to to accept that Matthew made a mistake about Abiathar the high priest or not – and make different decisions. These different decisions will affect all subsequent decisions about the infallibility of the Gospels, the truth of the Bible, etc. – because if you want to reverse your opinion, you have to accept that you were wrong before. And people don’t like admitting that. And so the two slide down the pyramid, each decision taking them farther and farther apart. At each step, they could turn back but it becomes more and more difficult, because the burden of admitting they were wrong becomes larger and larger (“I am in blood/Stepp’d in so far that, should I wade no more,/Returning were as tedious as go o’er.”) And so a very minor decision lead two former friends to end up in wildly different positions.
I probably didn’t explain that very well, but I recommend the book. It makes more sense in context.
Because people want certainty, Bart. Some much more than others. You were one of them. As you say, very few people would have become that type of Christian at 20, not having been raised that way. What do you think you were looking for? Something solid, unquestionable? And you just found more questions. You’ve been asking them ever since, and maybe I’m wrong, but I feel like you’re still looking for something solid. (You got a little irritated when we were talking about Stoicism, and I questioned the wisdom of Marcus Aurelius. Who was a remarkable man, but I guess all fathers have blind spots….)
It’s a personality type. Like a relative of mine, angry at Vatican II, because “We used to have The Truth.” And be honest–if that’s what your after, questions of any kind are deadly. And the structure that you depend on to keep you going, day after day, collapses on itself.
Some of us need that structure more than others–and will find one. Even in a world without any belief in God. They’d still find one. And they’d still look daggers at anyone who questioned it. Not just metaphorical daggers, in some cases.
I have this co-worker, who is a truly lovely person–she’s from Italy, and I assumed she was Catholic (we work at a Catholic university). I just found out recently she’s a Jehovah’s Witness. She married one, and she got into it, and her whole family are JH’s, and deeply involved in that church. She proudly showed me photos of them at a conference. It’s her entire life, away from work. She gave me a card with the JH website addy. If I wanted to know more. I feel like I know enough. And yet my regard for her is not diminished.
Of course, if I did join up, and then started asking questions…….
At this stage in my life, the one thing I’m certain of is that nothing is certain. I’m not looking for systems. I’m looking for good people. And so was Jesus.
I’m sure it varies with personalities. But in general I see it across even other topics as is “seeking truth” your search to really want to know and and a search what is most likely true? Or is needed a pretty stable and predicable “truth” and you search to confirm what feels right. It is interesting to watch people work puzzles sometimes. Some people will quickly determine a piece doesn’t fit and grab another. Others will keep trying, being determined it must fit if you try long enough or even want to pound it into place.
Thanks for sharing your personal thoughts/experiences. I too, have agonized over others’ inability to change their position when confronted with conflicting data.
I have always strived to “understand the other person’s point of view.” As grandma used to say, “Ain’t no pancake made so thin it didn’t have 2 sides to it.”
Being a science geek, of sorts, I had some long debates with young earth creationists in the 1980s.
I was raised as a YEC but changed my mind based on the overwhelming evidences.
My discussion opponents commonly would pride themselves on being “open-minded,” e.g. that they had at one time been an “evolutionist” (like being a gravitationalist?) but had changed their mind.
So a useful question I found before embarking on a debate journey was to ask, “Is there any evidence I can present that would cause you to change your mind?”
The surprising answer was usually “no.” In contrast, I am not fossilized into my belief system.
I hopefully remain open-minded, but not so much that my brains fall out (gullibility).
Keep the faith Bart and the search for truth. In a sense you take up your own cross and maybe that is what Jesus really meant. I find it interesting you post this just as I am starting to explore the rather unknown theology of Sir Isaac Newton. So much of his religious writings were never published because many would describe him as a heretic. He was more probably a Unitarian Deist.
See The Newton Papers: The Strange and True Odyssey of Isaac Newton’s Manuscripts by Sarah Dry and Priest of Nature: The Religious Worlds of Isaac Newton by Rob Iliffe . Mr. Illiffe is is the General Editor of the online Newton Project and encouraged his wife Ms. Dry to write on the history of his papers.
As Newton said “Plato is my friend,
Aristotle is my friend,
but my greatest friend is truth.”
Sir Isaac Newton
(MS Add.3996, 88r)
Trinity College, Cambridge.
Unfortunately, many people are utterly unintelligent. Others are highly intelligent and make great strides in some areas but are just uninterested in questioning fundamental questions pertaining to their religion. The well-trained so-called ‘scholars’ who remain fundamentalist in their religious beliefs are the strangest of all. Some have early on adopted an ‘us-vs-them’ mentality against evil liberalism that they don’t question because it is for them a moral issue, not an intellectual one that ought to questioned. Questioning our core beliefs is hard, challenging, and can be threatening–it concerns our survival, the very existence of our essential identity. No one wants to die. If they really believed in God, they would not be afraid of thinking with an open mind. Likewise, if they could come to terms with being agnostic or atheist. What is this thing called religion that is afraid of real thought? It is a crystallized identity.
Dear Bart,
I think that the reality is that these weird beliefs do not matter. Science (and scholarship) has clearly shown that there is no basis for belief in heaven and hell, salvation by blood, creation in seven days etc.
What may matter, however, is that Jesus’s gospel of love (for our neighbours) may inspire us to a way of life which gives meaning to our existence. This is not the only source of inspiration, there are many others – I think Albert Camus in ‘La Peste’ (and in his life) can inspire us to find meaning through people “obscurely engaged in saving, not destroying, and this in the name of no ideology”. I find your raising money to fight poverty through your blog inspirational too and am proud to make a small contribution. In the meantime I agree we should also enjoy the many good things in life while we can.
How so many can ignore the gospel of love and use religion to promote hate and division is still a mystery to me (although reading your analysis of the early centuries of Christianity does provide some explanation). But it does not matter – what matters is to continue to try our best, even in adversity….
Thanks again for all the insights, for your commitment to changing your mind, when the evidence demands it, and for working to try to find and spread the truth, as far as that is possible.
Very best wishes to you and all the others who read and contribute to the blog, Andrew.
I very much identify with this post. I grew up in the United Pentecostal Church, left it and ended up going to seminary and am now a minister in the United Methodist Church. However, now I’m preparing to leave the ministry because my search for truth has led me to the place where faith in Christianity is no longer possible. Unfortunately, simply asking questions can lead to people shunning you. I’m grateful for online communities such as these where knowledge is being sought. Thank you Dr. Ehrman for your work.
You were a member of the UPC? I went to a UPC church back in the day.
What is it that led to your walking away from the faith?
Dr Ehrman,
Thank you for this post. I appreciate your personal posts as they show your honesty in reflection.
I may be what is considered an evangelical Christian (though, I guess it depends on who you ask). Now, I’m not from your part of the world so maybe this makes a difference. My experience, as an evangelical, has been one of significant change of things I was taught as a youngster (and freedom to think through these things and explore). It seems to me that most honest, deep thinking evangelicals would actually, when pressed, admit that we simply do not know what eternity will be like (even if we have beliefs that such a state exists), nor can we honestly say that there are not mistakes in scripture (even if we believe it’s inspired and want to err on the side of benefit-of-the-doubt explanations). This seems to be to be the general views of many evangelical academics (maybe not the most vocal), at least – after a few drinks on a late night at a corner table.
Do you think part of the reason these more rhetorical / ideological statements still persist in public is more a political aspect (ie. loss of job, etc.) than anything else?
Toro
I think that’s definitely the case with some of the people I debate. Their lives — work, family, friends — all depend on remaining with the same positions they’ve always had.
I wonder if it all comes down to Fear on one hand. Probably both conscience and sub-conscience fear of loss. Loss of family, friends, community, “love”, identity. I sure can’t fault them there. Maybe a part of it too is Free Will. The older I get the more I realize how little true free will I have. It seems my “I” had little to do with the fact that I have been a seeker and curious my entire life. Others? Not so much. I realize that they had as much to do with their noninterest as I did with my interest in things that really matter to me. Why do some things really matter to me? I can make good guesses about that but at the end of the day, I really have no clue other than to say it just how I came wired. “I” had nothing to do with it.
I know Peter Williams and was reluctantly asked to participate in an informal debate with him on the same topic for the edification of my mostly-evangelical colleagues. Reluctant because I had no desire to try to talk any listener out of any article of faith they might have (and because despite Bart’s tutelage here and in print, I am a 98-pound weakling in debating someone like Peter!).
I can vouch for Peter’s character and grace. Fine fellow.
I wonder, Bart, to your topic here. Was Peter a staunch evangelical and textual perfectionist at 14 years old? Or did he “convert” in adulthood? If the latter, he may be your mirror image with respect to today’s topic!
I believe he was raised in a conservative Christian family.
As another former evangelical who continues to worship in a congregation which I consider conservative, but who now identifies more closely with a theological version of Christianity which has been labelled “progressive,” I lament the attitude of those evangelicals who regard you as an enemy of the truth. While I still disagree with you on some things, I have never doubted your intellectual integrity and continue to appreciate the things I learn from you, even when we disagree.
Good question! I have often pondered the same thing. Looking forward to part ll and your attempt to answer the question because it’s a mystery to me.
Do you think that maybe it is because of a subconscious fear associated with the belief in a God that holds them accountable for “right” belief, despite their disturbed consciences upon exposure to some of the realities of life that would make someone else ask the deeper questions? I.e,, They might “feel” something is not quite right at a given time, but the fear of offending God by considering alternative views prevails in their lives. I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness and I know it took me a long process to flush my system of such internal fear of pursuing an honest examination of the truth at the risk of being wrong in the end and then suffering divine anger. Maybe it’s that, in combination with the social environment such a one is immersed in. When any doubts start to become manifest, one is surrounded by their family and friends, who, if not experiencing such doubt at the moment themselves, will be quick to pressure one to return to “the truth” without question. Of course, I imagine with your background that nothing I’ve said is news to you. And it still comes down to the question “Why do some change and not all change?”
Yes, I often think that’s a large part of it for a lot of committed evangelicals.
As far as the average person, I couldn’t say. As far as public figures – especially those making a living out of it, I believe it’s not subconscious – rather I think it’s conscious social fear. They have built a power base from saying things they cannot prove ARE SO. They cannot – dare not – admit they’re wrong. Many will double down on the hooey, saying the same thing without proof – just LOUDER.
If a person holds the exact same positions for 30 years, they probably haven’t grown much as a person in that time period. At the very least, it means they aren’t willing to admit they’re wrong. For me, even when I was a very conservative Christian, I never got this refusal to change. I was (and am) a fallible human being. Even if God is perfect, *I* can be wrong. What’s the harm in admitting that?
The best part is if you look at the evidence and honestly conclude you were wrong, you can just change your mind and BOOM you’re not wrong anymore. Everybody wins!
Your are certainly not alone in thinking about this issue! The short, glib, answer would invoke brain structure and function. There is some research in this direction, however. IQ for instance is a coarse measure. Some of your ex-associates might score high but if you zoomed in on problems that require some degree of creativity, or “thinking outside the box” in order to solve a problem, they might not do so well. Sometimes I like to imagine unethical experimentation. For instance, how would the deeply religious respond to anti-psychotic meds, like thorazine? There are many others available. How would they respond to LSD? I’m not aware of any studies in psych journals that have tested “religiousity” in patients who have been treated with various psychiatric medications. And not just anti-psychotics but any of a wide array of medications that affect brain function. In my view, it should be taken as a given that every aspect of our behavior has a functional/structural correlation in the brain. And so the answers must be there, somewhere. I hope that’s not too reductionist.
I’m in the same boat. I deconverted in the mid 1990s after spending the late 80’s trying to reconcile biblical problems with, frankly, common sense. Since then I wonder why people I’ve known in the church who are like your Moody friend just can’t see any issues with the religion they were taught on mamma’s knee. And of course they are wondering why I rejected the plain truth they believe.
“But what I’m puzzled by is not *that*, but by the fact that thinking human beings (as opposed to non-thinking ones) can actually still subscribe to such nonsense.”
The other puzzling thing is that these same people will use their intelligence when involved in most all other activities. They will change their thinking when appropriate with most other subjects but not with their religion.
They also view other religions as nonsense and cannot understand how anyone could hold the beliefs of another religion. But their religion makes complete sense and a non-believing person does not have enough faith if they do not believe.
As the Backfire Effect tells us, we invest our emotions and thoughts into developing a core identity and crystallized worldview that over time becomes our default setting for living our life. If someone challenges that default setting, we feel threatened because we don’t want the house of cards to fall. Feeling threatened, many people lash out and experience a change in the brain called “flight or fright.” In contrast, a small percentage of people have a sort of metacognition that allows for self-doubt and considering opposing views as one evolves one’s worldview.
Michael Shermer would say that your Moody friends (or former friends) don’t have an as highly developed bullshit detector as you have. They have found a comfortable religious fantasyland and are full time residents therein. Their ultraconservative Christian beliefs seem to remove the most basic human fear that they and everyone else face–namely the fear of non-existence after death.
They buy in completely in the fantasy of the invisible, immaterial, immortal human soul and the entire Christian salvation theory complete with heaven, hell, angels, saints, demons. They have not figured out that eternal condemnation of poor, weak creatures like us humans to the fiery pit for fantasized sins that are offensive to an equally fantasized infinitely perfect and infinitely powerful creator god is not punishment–it’s torture. How can such a deity condemn finite, powerless humans to an infinity of torture for any action these wretches might do?
And, as Richard Dawkins would point out, your friends are infected with the virus of religious belief and that one of the defense mechanisms of this virus is to convince these victims that it is sinful to be skeptical and to question their faith (i.e. the beliefs they hold without any supporting evidence). And that apostacy is the unforgiveable sin.
You are not alone. My high school friends are just like your Moody friends–stuck in stasis and no different from what they were at age 16 in their beliefs and prejudices. And we are in our late 70s and they have not changed in 60 years. I live in California; they have lived in Missouri all their lives. When we get together, as some of us did on my 75th birthday, it’s civil enough (several rounds of beer are helpful). And past experience has taught us to tread lightly on religion and politics, especially in these times with so much divisiveness in the U.S.
Your eyes were opened when you got to Princeton Theological Seminary and began to change your beliefs. In my case, four years in a Jesuit university did the trick. Reading the Bible cover to cover and/or exposure to the Jesuits are two time-tested ways to lose your faith if you have any skeptical bones in your body.
I can relate. I feel like I have done a good job of trying to examine religion and the Bible objectively and being willing to adjust my views to fit the data, rather than adjusting the data to fit my views. But people who are still entrenched in my former belief system see it as betraying the truth rather than seeking the truth. And it’s hard to explain my process to them without it feeling like I’m attacking their belief system, which is not my intention. So, I end up being cautious about what I say, which is a shame, as I wish people could talk freely about such things without their feelings getting hurt. Question: I see you’re doing a seminar at UNC this fall but not on the topic of your next book. Do you anticipate doing a seminar based on your new afterlife book?
Yup, I will. And will also be doing one for the Smithsoninan Associates on it (four lectures, all day). You can find it on their website if you’re interested.
Is there a schedule of your appearances?
I keep one on my webpage, http://www.bartdehrman.com, but I haven’t updated it yet for the fall. Need to do that!
I have spent many a brain cell thinking on this issue as well. I don’t have answers either (unless you do?)
A few thoughts seem likely. Authoritarian types have to have authorities. For some reason, certain types of personalities are unable to step out of the authoritarian boxes they seem to need. Which leads to cognitive dissonance avoiders. Some personalities will construct walls in their brains to isolate conflicting thoughts because it causes so much discomfort. They probably have no conscious thought that they do this. Their brains just seem to be hardwired to avoid internal conflict and the smarter they are, the better they can resolve these conflicts to themselves. Less intelligent people seem to just avoid thinking about it very seriously but smart people find ways to resolve conflicting ideas.
I’m still trying to figure out how someone that insists they follow Jesus and his teachings will also insist that the poor only need to pick themselves up by their bootstraps and take responsibility for being poor without government help or resources. They claim to care and insist that private charity will accomplish what government is incapable of…without ever explaining how private charities would accomplish such a monumental, fair and equitable task! Charity will just work! Meanwhile let’s pull money away from government programs. I shudder at their solutions when they have articulated them…most haven’t so far.
I also agree that every Christian’s God agrees exactly with them when properly interpreted! ????????????
“Most of the human race, of course, thinks the very idea is ludicrous. But what I’m puzzled by is not *that*, but by the fact that thinking human beings (as opposed to non-thinking ones) can actually still subscribe to such nonsense.”
Very true. God is Just. God will not judge those who are ignorant and with out knowledge like the one with knowledge. It’s the one with Knowledge that carry the burden of that knowledge and what they do with it.
My sense is that the bulls-eye is heaven (i.e. eternal life). And many want a guarantee of attaining it. They find that guarantee (indeed, written) in the NT, given to them as unquestioning youths. So to question that ironclad guarantee is to commit eternal suicide. They would be very uncomfortable with the uncertainty that accompanies skeptical inquiry, or agnosticism. Do my thoughts make any sense, Professor?
Yup, it’s what I once thought/felt too.
Thank you for sharing your story Dr. Ehrman.
It seems to me that my evangelical family and friends are drawn to their faith primarily due to a deep need for security and order. The thought of having a supreme being watching over them, guiding them and ultimately in control of this world relieves them of worry. In addition, most of them grew up in communities heavily influenced by evangelicals, it is the only life they know.
A distinction I note too is that when I was faced with apparent contradictions and errors within the bible my rational mind could not let it be. Most evangelicals I know are comfortable with believing that someday God will provide the answer to how it is all true.
Dear Bart. That’s a heart-felt, honest and very personal set of thoughts to share on the blog. For this reason, and for the reason that I have huge respect for your scholarship, I am mindful that in replying, I am treading on ‘holy ground’. All I can do is to share that I started out my ‘Christian life’ at age 13 in a similar fundamentalist ‘stable’. However, as a bit of a rebel, I think my questioning began earlier and has continued all the way through my life, rather than my accepeting everything and then throwing it out ‘lock stock and barrel’ at one point like you, though I did do this at medical school for a few months at one stage. When I was 17 for example, I recall being quite inspired by the biography of James Hudson-Taylor, founder of the China Inland Mission (now OMF), but having very strong feelings that he was so, so wrong in his motivation for evangelism that thousands of Chinese people were ‘passing into hell’ every day. And for me, it’s been like that all the way through: evolution, neurosceince, philosophy, the problem of evil, the apparant randomness in the world, the parochiality of the Judaeo-Christian herritage, Biblical errancy and, more recently, a really big dose of critical theological scholarship reading 2 of your books and joining the blog :-). All these have made me question and change aspects of my theological and philosophical beliefs quite a bit, but have not extinguished my belief in a beneficient creator-God and his lamb-Messiah. As for the way you describe having been treated at times by certain old evangelical friends and colleagues, I think it very sad, but that would not be my focus. ‘Christian humans’ and the text of the ‘humanly’ written scriptures are not inerrant (as you have convincingly shown) and nothing in the scriptures says that either are completely inerrrant either. That is why I try to place my faith is in God himself and the person of Jesus, which indeed comes to us through the imperfect vessels of scripture and other people. His glory is indeed veiled, but I believe shines through. Best
Rulon James Downard who runs the anti-Creationist site “Troubles in Paradise” coined the term “Tortucan,” derived from the Latin name for Turtle. It describes an otherwise intelligent person who was built a strong mental “mindshell” to protect his or her deeply cherished beliefs from any information that might be detrimental to it, no matter how evidence-based. He describes it at
http://www.twowordculture.com/tip/files/An-Ill-Wind-in-Tortuca-2009-Lecture.pdf
Or a 3 minute video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOuCmIDKEkg
I’ve been working on a similar thought process myself for quite a while now and have come up with two answers: experiences and authority. As Christians, we experienced things “of God” that strengthened and confirmed our faith. Talk to any strong Christian and they can recount many “miracles” or answers to prayers they have seen/witnessed/been a party to/or simply heard about from other committed Christians they trust. So to put those experiences up against the scholarship of a “turncoat” like you, well, most will probably go with what they have experienced.
Second, for some reason many of us see (saw) pastors/priest/clergy as truthful authority figures. At some point we were exposed to these men (usually by others we trusted such as grandparents, parents or close friends) and we believed them. Why would they lie? And they told us that others WILL lie to us and try to tell us that what the Bible says isn’t true. So again, people like yourself, who point out the inconsistencies, are doing EXACTLY what these implicitly trusted men told us would happen. So they dismiss it as the work of the devil and don’t lend any credence to it and will refuse to even consider it.
For those who do think about it they end up back at point number 1, their personal experiences.
I credit you for ruining my faith. 🙂 But it took a few years before I could actually say “I’m no longer a Christian” and the biggest reason was my experiences. I have made a list of these “miracles”. Things that I experienced directly that are unexplainable in an otherwise logical world. If I try hard I can explain away most, although I’d rather not, but there are other things in this world we cannot explain like deja-vu, consciousness, how the universe and life got started, etc. So now I leave room for these unexplainable things and wonder what if any outside forces are responsible for them. And because of my past traditions and inability to know what they really are I still attribute them to “God”, just not any current or previous theological God.
The Christians I cannot explain are your peers who do the same kinds of scholarship, see the same discrepancies and retain their faith. And I know it wasn’t those things that caused you to lose your faith, but why not???
I often wonder…
This would be a great area of study for you I think. I personally am of the opinion that the apparent inability to consider the possibility that you might be wrong is to a great extent hardwired biology, although it is undoubtedly facilitated by a close-minded support system that reinforces the natural bent of these folks. I was raised in the Church of Christ in West Texas. Need I say more? I was not hard- wired, and had doubts even before I was willing to admit them. I recently looked up a number of my high school and college classmates on Facebook, and was dismayed to find that the religious intransigence of my former church friends often translates directly to political attitudes, i.e., all liberals are the spawn of Satan. No less disheartening (maybe more so), but I have come to see this as a largely intractable neurological issue that you were possibly in large part spared by your genetic makeup. Disclaimer: I am in no way a scholar, either Biblical or Biological. Merely an open-minded observer.
Yeah, hard for me to understand too, especially how highly trained scholars can stick to fundamentalist beliefs. They seem to have some sort of mental filter in place which is more porous in some places than in others. It seems to function by allowing certain information to filter through, and by blocking or deflecting information that is more threatening and strikes closer to their chosen worldview – though ‘chosen’ isn’t exactly the correct word, as it implies a conscious decision. Whatever is going on is largely unconscious, I believe. More of a question for psychoanalysts to answer, I guess.
Those people I find the hardest to understand are what I call “educated idiots”. They may be highly trained and educated professionals, but will still cling to childish belief systems. They may be rocket scientists, but still believe that Christ needed to sacrifice himself on the cross to redeem them in the eyes of God. There is still much mystery about ourselves and the universe, so I understand the need to remain humble in the face of the vastness of our ignorance, but I think we need to consign clearly primitive worldviews to our primitive past.
Bart, I am so glad you touched on this, having come from a very conservative evangelical/charasmatic background, I can relate. It is totally incomprehensible for me to think that scholars who have so much historical knowledge at their disposal can still hold on to their Christian beliefs. It is absolutely beyond logical reason to me and is one of the greatest puzzles I can think of. Is indoctrination so complete that even when faced with evidence to the contrary one cannot shake oneself loose from these beliefs? I have come up with many reasons, but in the end they don’t seem strong enough to be able to have such strangleholds on people. I am really looking forward to your next few posts on this subject, hopefully you will give me some answers. Keep up the good work of educating people.
There are more people who seek to justify what they already believe than people who seek the truth, even if that truth is not what they would want. A common example of this that I see is Christians who begin an argument for belief in God with a phrase like, “Would you want to live in a world in which…” They honestly, sincerely seem to believe that my liking or not liking something should in some way inform my understanding of the world. In my opinion, it doesn’t work that way.
One thing I look for when I’m trying to see if someone is honestly searching for the truth is how they react to counter arguments. If they engage with counter arguments, refute them (even if I don’t agree with the refutation), and do not change their beliefs but take those counter arguments into consideration going forward, then I can respect for their opinion, whether I share it or not. On the other hand, if they dismiss counter arguments, keep using arguments that they have clearly been shown are inaccurate, or have disdain for disagreement, then I have more trouble respecting their opinion, even if I agree with their conclusions.
Dr. Ehrman,
I really empathize with your journey and your reflections. This past September I was lucky enough to be one of the few blog members who got to have dinner with you in Durham. It was an amazing evening with you and your wife. I got to share my story with you that night but I feel I should give a general recap of it here because I want you to remember how your life story and scholarship really has made a difference.
I was a committed fundamentalist Christian for 20 years. I obtained a BA degree in Biblical Studies from a small conservative Pentecostal Christian college. The degree was really more of a ministry degree than a true Biblical Studies degree because I was not exposed to any critical scholarship on any subject. I first came to know your work through a book tilted “The Case for The Real Jesus” by Lee Strobel. Lee writes great book on apologetics and makes the best case possible for the evangelical world view. You became enemy number one in my book because Lee mentioned you over and over as a scholar who had lost his way and was helping other lose theirs.
I started watching your debates with conservative scholars (admittedly just so I could see them destroy your arguments or in your words…”see you get creamed”) but something happened. As much as I wanted your arguments to be weak and easily contested, that was not the case. I found that your opponents really never could offer plausible or logical arguments that held water. Most of the time they just avoided your arguments. Over the course of a couple years I shifted from being a hard core fundamentalist to being more moderate to now being a very liberal Christian. I am still a believer but I do so not on historical grounds but on social grounds and simple faith, and love Bible history more than ever!!
Thank you for your work and for being willing to debate and write. The truth really matters! You made a difference in my life and there are other I know that have learned so much because of your debates and books. I know every time you debate you think “Man, what am I doing?”. Remember, you are making a difference!
So, any chance of another blog dinner?
Thanks so very much! Jay
Thanks! Blog dinner. Maybe so. Need to think about it. I’m out of the country for another month….
Blog dinner in England? ????
Ha! Interesting idea.
Count me in!
This could be a fundraiser for your charity.
Dr. Ehrman,
A good question indeed. Why do some change their minds and others don’t? I honestly think it comes down to individual genetic disposition. How one is “hardwired” you might say. Maybe nothing could change your colleague/debate opponents mind because of a difference in “wiring” from you.
But keep on asking the questions and hopefully one day we’ll have a satisfactory answer.
Dr. Ehrman, what are your thoughts on Sabine Huebner’s published dating and claim to the oldest authentic handwriting of a Christian on a papyrus dated to 230? If this is true, what are the implications for NT scholarship?
https://international.la-croix.com/news/swiss-university-hails-oldest-christian-letter-found/10548#
I’m afraid I haven’t studied it yet. But I don’t know why New Testament manuscripts produced before 230 wouldn’t be earlier forms of Christian hand-writing.
I was having the same feelings/thoughts the other day about some decisions I made at 18 that changed at 20 yo; then again at 52 after much research myself on the topic. Just finishing Sam Harris’ book “Freewill” maybe it’s the way we are “wired”? Often I wish I could have “faith” or better “hope” to the degree many do, and not be so afraid of commitment, but I can’t. Reflecting on a comment my 3rd grade teacher made on my report card one term, I can see I had that trait issue even then.
I suppose this is a parallel to political sectarian thinking. Arthur Koestler, the influential Hungarian-English intellectual of the mid past century, wrote extensively on the blinkered mind of communists. He,himself once a brilliant Komintern propagandist, describes how it was possible to travel through Soviet areas with mass starvations in the nineteen thirties and still not waver from the party line.
May be you would like to consider writing a book on the religously blinkered mind?
Bart,
I take it you thought I was being presumptuous in asking you if you knew what Elaine Pagels found in the Nag Hammadi Library that brought her back to Christianity. I know you hold her in high regard, as do I.I know that you both have worked with these documents. Apparently she found something there that you did not.I just wondered what that might be. Please ignore my question if I’m getting too personal.
I wasn’t aware that the NHL brought her back to Xty. I don’t recall her saying that in her recent autobiography.
As someone who also used to hold passionately to general Christian views of life and the world, I do remember a tremendous amount of insecurity about my convictions and fear of death that powered my defense of my faith. I don’t know that confirmation bias and fear of mortality are everyone’s reasons for irrationally clinging to articles of faith, but I was certainly swimming in those waters.
It took a few really shocking moments in my life to jar me awake and to force me to ask myself the Really Hard Questions (TM) and that might be what it takes for others also. I know that sounds a bit high and mighty, but it’s just from where I’m sitting now. Heck, I have a friend who was raised agnostic hippy and converted to Catholicism later in life. Others similar stories too, so people are motivated by things I may never understand 🙂
Are there other ideas from your youth that you hold on to even though life shows they are untrue? Life is generally fair. If you work hard enough, you will succeed. People get what they deserve.
Sure, lots of them. I still believe in love and the capacity of humans to do good, e.g.. And in gravity.
Mr. Ehrman, I find it funny that you replied that, as the Rav was explaining recently that the reason why the jews follow so many laws is in part to point out the fact that “As above so below” .. as there are laws in the spiritual realms, so they are to follow down to earth laws in this one… and anyway the word Elohim reprensents G.od through the forces of nature so there you have it: Gravity!
As for your post, two things came to my mind right away: Idolatry and past life traumas …
I’m still reflecting on it…
“This is not an issue for most blog members, but possibly for some. I have a few more reflections on it – specifically with respect to my debate – that I think I’ll reflect on in the next post. ”
I am sooo happy about this post as to me it is like the right side of the brain balancing the left side of the brain, of the blog!
In all respect to it’s mission and content… 🙂
I’ll reflect on this question (great question!) and I’ll reply at some point!
While I think fear of what might happen if one truly questions what was cemented into them as a child is a simple answer, I think the ultimate answer is the same answer to the question, why do some people derive pleasure from torturing puppies? Because God didn’t wire all of us the same way.
Do you think that your religious beliefs once met a need that you were able to meet in another way? I don’t think there is necessarily any one reason people are able to change vs. not. But I think one of the reasons people have difficulty changing is that the thing they don’t want to give up meets some psychological (or perhaps some other type of) need. I was a hard core Catholic once. In my case (again, I am not suggesting everyone else is the same), I was insecure as a child and found comfort in my religious beliefs. To some extent it offered me a sense things would be better one day, even if it was after death. There was even an arrogant aspect to it. I thought I was morally superior to others (aren’t Christians supposed to be humble?). As my life and self-esteem improved, I no longer needed religion to feel comfortable with myself. My beliefs didn’t change immediately, but when I read the Bible and noticed discrepancies, I was open to what that might mean rather than brushing it off. My beliefs continued to slowly change over years. In my case, I needed something else to meet the need my previous beliefs had met for me. At least I think so and perhaps that is true of others as well.
Yes, that’s probably part of it.
While I cannot identify with you from an academic standpoint, I understand the feeling you’ve expressed in this post. I grew up in a fundamentalist evangelical group (Jehovah’s Witnesses to be specific) and have experienced doubts ever since I have the faculties to reason. I was taught from a very young age not to trust anyone’s opinion who doesn’t believe in God because, as I was taught, God obviously exists and it’s inexcusable to think otherwise (I don’t think this anymore). In hindsight, I realized that every time I would research topics myself I was either listening to what I wanted to hear or I would reinforce my “castle” of faith with stone upon stone of faulty rationalizations, because I felt my salvation was at stake. It was only when I gave myself permission to look at the world unfiltered by rosy goggles that I realized that my castle of faith was no more than a house of cards waiting to crumble, and boy it crumbled. I’m happy with the path I’m taking now but my still believing family think I’m crazy, because if they admit that I’m not crazy they’re admitting a possibility that their castle is really a house of cards waiting to crumble. And that thought is unspeakable to them. Life, like the Matrix movie, is full of red pill – blue pill decisions. Some wake up believing whatever they want to believe. And some seek the truth no matter where the evidence takes them.
Thank you for sharing this with us. My hope is that we bloggers can be a support for you at such times as this. As you most surely know by now, you and your work have meant everything to me. No doubt there are many others who feel the same way.
I think re your 70s friend that his reaction to you is almost exclusively tribal. And symptomatic of the political divide in America today. You are in his ‘out group’ and therefore need to be attacked.
I’m from Australia and Evangelical Christianity here doesn’t have the aggressive edge that the American variety does. Having engaged with the British version, I think you’d agree that they too are polite with their evangelical zeal.
One other thing: when I was in a similar position to you in the 1970s, I was a ‘fundamentalist’ Christian. I’m not sure when this became ‘evangelical’, but I wonder if it was a re-branding after 9/11….
All babies are born good and in the light. They are connected to Spirit. They don’t need to be baptized or believe in Christ. You can go to heaven without knowing Christ. I think you need to love others. Don’t discriminate, hate, rule, etc. Don’t put others down. Don’t think you are worse than or better than others. We were created equal.
Loving-kindness.
Most learned they were born sinners and can change that belief with daily prayers affirming they were good and did not sin. Remember we were all created good and equal. Tell yourself a success story of going to heaven.
I don’t think you need to be in religion to go to heaven. Ideally, religion would teach people ethics and morals that help them in this world and in heaven.
This was today’s verse of the day on Bible Gateway:
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.” Romans 1:16 NIV
I was doing some research and about Genesis 1 and 2. They are suspected to have been written by different sources. Genesis 1 was actually written several hundred years after most of Genesis 2. This shows a change in beliefs at least for some (Priestly). We have always been created equal and good, that didn’t change, just our awareness and beliefs.
I am currently studying the TaNaK ( Jewish Bible) and when it was written, what was going on historically at those times, and what the Jewish commentaries say. Doing it like a conversion which takes about 2 years, that is the only way I know to learn it and practice it to see if it works.
I think there is both good spiritual food and some not so good spiritual food in the Bible. It is best to eat as healthy as possible as often as possible.
I have good food that I can read and listen to daily. I think that helps me to recognize what is similar or not.
We are programmed when we are young that as long as we continue to believe what the church teaches without question that is true faith, when in reality, it’s a counterfeit faith. But most people don’t question enough to see it. It’s very sad and frustrating. I think it was Mark Twain that said, “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” So true.
I believe this is also true in other areas: politics, race relations, climate change, etc. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said: ‘…spend 40 years thinking about it.’ Unfortunately many, many people grow old never thinking about what they believe or why. It is sad and I think ‘questioning things’, critical thinking skills or even basic logic skills are foreign subjects in our education system.
THANK YOU! Your work and courage have meant a great deal to me. I look forward to your next book!
I was once on the same Premier Christianity program to debate a related topic with the New Testament scholar Gary Habermas. I’d just written an article for ABC News which argued the very existence of “sincere disbelievers” like yourself was a real problem for evangelical Christians.
Here’s a snippet:
“It sounds strange, but the idea that there were people who had heard the Gospel and been left untouched by it was unfathomable to an evangelical kid like me. I always thought there must be other factors at play when it comes to disbelief.
“But my [non-Christian] girlfriend showed me that there were unbelievers who hadn’t turned their backs on God in an act of grand Freudian defiance, or shunned their creator in spite of what they know in their hearts and minds to be true. That there were people who had looked at Christianity and been unmoved, unstirred; simply, unsold.
“It was upon this realisation that the edifice of my faith began to crack.”
The rest of the article is here if you’re interested:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-29/god-and-the-problem-of-sincere-disbelief/8378108
The point I made was that for many Christians, including me when I was younger, the idea that someone could be denied salvation not because of a moral failing, but because they simply disagreed about the evidence for God was untenable. And so, for many evangelicals, they simply can’t allow for the idea of genuine truth seekers like yourself who arrive at any destination other than Christianity. There must be something else going on in your heart. (As you might have guessed, in my case many evangelicals suggested the real problem was that I got a non-Christian girlfriend!)
My guess is that many Christians are reluctant to change their own views for the exact same reason: when they come across evidence contrary to Christianity, it’s not that they can’t see it, it’s that they don’t trust their eyes. They see doubt itself as coming from a place of rebellion.
It’s been a long time since my Habermas debate, but from memory, he didn’t really give a clear answer to my challenge: did he believe that it was possible to “sincerely disbelieve”, and if so, what did he think would happen to these sincere disbelievers when they die?
Similarly, a theologian wrote a response article with this baffling suggestion:
“Isn’t Collett’s protest really not an argument against the existence of God, but a protest against the God that exists? Isn’t there a tacit acknowledgement that God exists in this ‘problem’?”
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-31/is-it-a-problem-for-christianity-that-sincere-people-disagree/8404034
Huh?! No wonder Christian/non-Christian dialogue is so tough.
Interesting. Thanks!
Dr. Ehrman – Thank you for posing this question. I’m sorry for your pain. I’m sure that you have been called every name in the book by Evangelicals for leading the elect astray. I think your question goes much deeper than just Evangelicals. It really applies to all kinds of belief systems including religion, politics, climate change, flat earthers, conspiracy theorists, etc.
That being said, I think that Evangelicals, in general, need to be given a measure of grace when it comes to belief (easy for me to say as I don’t have websites devoted to attacking me). First off, many believers never question why they believe what they believe – they just keep doing and thinking the same things they were taught as kids. They would never even consider that God’s Word could be inaccurate. Two, Christianity is the cultural heritage of this country – it is a part of our lives whether we want it to be or not. Three, for many believers Christianity is woven into the fabric of their family and social structure. Four, Christianity can and does regularly change lives for the better. Five, there are millions upon millions of people that practice religions that are on far shakier ground than Evangelical Christianity (e.g. Mormons, JWs, Scientologists). In my opinion, it is a rare Evangelical that swims against these influences to even start questioning.
As for the thinkers, I know a number of brilliant people that are devout Christians. I have never heard any of them question the authority or accuracy of the Bible. Frankly, I doubt that they would ever go looking for Biblical criticism – it is just not an interest for them. I myself, until recently, was quite comfortable with a Bible that I knew was not inerrant, but I believed was generally accurate (at least some of the OT and most of the NT). It was not until I went searching for the historical Jesus that my thoughts changed. And I don’t really know why I started to look.
Dr. Ehrman,
I have an off-topic question I’ve never seen asked – that some of he names of the 12 apostles are apparently Greek, without obvious Hebrew equivalents, for instance Andrew or Philip (while the rest have Hellenized and later Anglicized versions of Hebrew names, like your namesake, Bar Tolmai 😉 )- now, assuming these were actually names of the apostles, I’m guessing its more likely they were Hellenized Jews (among whom such names may have become popular) than Gentiles, or were these invented names, or are they in some way based on Hebrew names?- just wondering what your view/the scholarly consensus is.
And on the topic du jour, I guess for some people committed to their convictions (greater enemies of truth than lies, as Nietzsche aptly put it) it’s just that difficult to admit privately or publicly, that they’ve been lied to, or have lied to others, or themselves. for so long that they have to rationalize away what counts as evidence against their beliefs (especially if they hold any position of authority, or political office- for instance, those who deny global climate change- or speak of alternative facts – though they may know better, they also know they would lose all credibility and the power that the ignorant bestow on them)
Great question. My sense is that Greek names were becoming more widely adopted, but that the use of one does not *necessarily* indicate that a family had become fully Hellenized. I don’t really know. But today, at least, if someone is named Joshua or Samuel, it doesn’t mean their family is Jewish. Not sure if that’s a helpful comparison or not.
Or is it a point of reference issue? Maybe you didn’t change your mind on what you held dearest–acceptance of evidence. I have fundy friends who will never give up their version of the faith, but it seems more because they have so intertwined their Christianity with their definition of self that to give up their fundamentalism would be to give up on the one thing they truly hold most dear–themselves. And that can never happen
Dr Ehrman,
Three factors come to mind:
1) Most people cannot or will not transcend the values and beliefs of their social networks. Paying bills and raising kids overwhelm them. They are therefore incurious about matters that offer no immediate payback. Social cooperation depends on it. But so does Arendt’s “banality of evil”.
2)Among the minority vitally interested in religion, practicing a faith and studying the historical development of that faith are two radically different operations. To use an analogy, playing a Beethoven sonata in a way that moves audiences has very little to do with understanding how the sonata form developed or how Beethoven pushed this musical genre in new directions. The believer seeks transcendence and meaning. The historian wants a credible account of social reality. Not the same thing.
3)Among academics specialized in religion, some may fear the professional repercussions of questioning the faith. Lack of confidence in one’s creativity or background knowledge can also be factors. Trying to change their beliefs is a bit like arguing about climate change with scientists financed by the oil industry. Self-interest and intellectual laziness obviously play a role.
Just a thought…
I am sure that most on the blog agree with you. I read an on-line eulogy after the passing, a few years back, of a very famous evangelical scholar/theologian/seminary prof and it was noted that he had retained, until his 83rd year (the age at which he passed), a firm commitment to premillennial dispensationalism. I guess that after his autopsy the pathologist must have pulled the family aside and said, ‘amazing, this man’s been dead for over 60 years…’
“OK, I couldn’t hit a jump shot, but still, is that reason to be upset four decades later?”
Yes.
OK, frankly, I’m still upset about it too….
The following article in Psychology Today gives a good overview of the science behind why many people don’t change their beliefs:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/finding-purpose/201810/what-actually-is-belief-and-why-is-it-so-hard-change
Good link! Thinking like a scientist can lead to a very exciting and satisfying life. And, it can keep you from going off the deep end.
I think about this a lot, even after leaving the Oneness faith 20+ years ago. There’s probably a variety of reasons why some never change, but I also take into account all of the people (myself included) who converted to strict, fundamentalist-type faiths as youths then left it as a young adult. Many of my same-aged peers left somewhere in their early to mid-twenties. We became adults and grew out of it so to speak. Some stayed longer for other reasons, such as, they were married and their spouse was not willing to leave the faith. Some that have been in the church for years aren’t always *in*–they are wishy-washy or off-and-on fundamentalist Christians. But then there are those who have been in it for the long haul and never budged an inch. My ex-pastor is like this. There’s this strange stubbornness about him where he refuses to change even though it’s meant losing many of his congregants over the years. He’s completely unyielding.
There’s plenty of reasons to never change: they enjoy the lifestyle, they have no desire to learn anything other than what they know, family ties/tradition keep them in the faith, they feel called to stay, they believe they found the truth and do not engage with those who are outside their truth, personal experiences reconfirm their beliefs, and so on…
Some see new information and change right away, others go more slowly, or don’t change at all. It’s a spectrum. But still, I consider people like my ex-pastor willfully ignorant, and sometimes it makes me angry. Other times, I don’t know what to think. I have somewhat retained relationships from my oneness past by having them as friends on Facebook. I guess that’s our compromise with each other.
We are dealing here with a ‘fundamentalist’ mind-set: I know, as I have been there myself. If Scripture is absolutely authoritative and is only to be interpreted consistently with itself, then it is very difficult to break through that attitude, however incomprehensible that may seem to outsiders. Difficult but not impossible. A direct approach will usually provoke a defensive response. Perhaps an indirect approach that gets the evangelical to ask his own questions (e.g. ‘have you considered how this part of the Bible relates to that part?’) can be more productive than the direct (e.g. ‘look at these two passages – can’t you see how they contradict each other?’)….
Thank you Bart for this post. Funny today before reading this blog I came to the conclusion that I am now an agnostic after being a Christian for many many years (I’m only 26). Reading this reassured my position. I guess the Lord works in mysterious ways lol.
Yup, it’s divine guidance!
Here is a link to an article in the online Orbiter Magazine regarding flat earthers and climate deniers. https://orbitermag.com/flat-earth-and-climate-denial-why/
I share this because I think the summary and especially the final sentence applies to this topic as well: “Changing their minds would make them outsiders. And that’s a pressure few of us can handle.”
I was raised by a strictly Catholic father and a devout but non-sectarian mother, and grew up in that environment. In my teens, one of my older brothers became a hardcore member of the “Worldwide Church of God,” and started challenging traditional Catholic views based on scriptural prooftexting. I started to read the Bible seriously, then scripture scholarship, then history, and then, once entering college, pursued different intellectual interests. Largely as a result of all this study prompted by my brother, but also for broader philosophical and personal reasons, I lost my original Catholic faith in stages, first becoming a liberal Catholic, then a kind of religious perennialist, and finally an atheist who now works in Asian philosophical traditions. Anyway, looking back, I’d have to admit that the progressive loss of faith I went through was difficult; in involved giving up on lots of hopes that were previously important to me; the loss of hope for eternal life for myself and my loved ones, the loss of belief in any objectively binding ethical norms or values, and, for me too, the loss of previously cherished friends. Remembering all that brings to mind, for me, how much people have at stake in their inherited or chosen religious beliefs. To be willing to change one’s mind about things so fundamental threatens many religious people–though certainly not all–with the prospect of these same kinds of losses, both emotional losses and losses of conviction and stability. Being willing to lose those things involves, potentially, lots of sacrifice. It may not seem so clearly that way after one has crossed that line and time has elapsed, but for those who haven’t crossed it, the line looks like the rim of a bottomless pit. So, for such people, it is easier for them to hold their ground, even against mountains of evidence, than it is to have those hopes and values even slightly threatened. In your specific case, Professor Ehrman, I wonder if the hostility directed toward you by some of your former friends might be due to the fact that they know your present convictions are backed up by incredible learning and expertise, and that only heightens the threats to their faith, and straightens their backs against you as they continue to tow the literalist line. The recent book “Leaving the Witness” by former Jehovah’s Witness Amber Scorah is also poignant on this issue.
Your question has been on my mind for a very long time and has peaked with the current political climate. Being an old, white male, raised in Texas, almost all of my friends and relatives and golf buddies are passionate Trump supporters. So, I made a long list of things that Trump has said and done any one of which would have ruined the career of any other politician and distributed it. My list changed the mind of absolutely no one and just aggravated people. Since then, I have seen almost daily Trump events that I thought would have changed people’s minds, for sure, and the Trump support remains unshaken and passionate at just over 40% approval. I am not trying to make a political point here pro-Trump or anti-Trump, but trying to illustrate the persistence of Trump support even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Hence, maybe the better question is not why most don’t change their views, but why some do?
During my medical school training and internship and residency, I followed the same process day after day with about a couple of dozen patients each day. I would take a patient history and, based on that history, formulate a differential diagnosis list listing the diagnoses in the order of the most likely diagnoses first. Then, I would do a physical examination and change the diagnosis list depending on the evidence I found on the examination. Then, I would track down the urinalysis, blood tests, and x-rays changing the order of my list with each new bit of evidence. I honestly expected people to follow this same orderly revision process when figuring out their religion or politics. Silly me!
Again, I know it is important to avoid political issues on this blog and I am not trying to stir up people for or against Trump. I am just trying to illustrate how this process works and the Trump political example shows it quite well.
So, no, I don’t have an answer for you although I have studied confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance reduction, the backfire effect, the illusion of truth effect, the Dunning-Kruger effect, and so on. But when you find the answer, I bet it will apply to politics as well as to religion.
Also not trying to be political but looking at it for how people act: it is amazing how people react differently to the same comments depending on who they think said them rather than the content itself. There are quotes of Obama when he was being called “deporter in Chief” back in 2012 and talking about the need to round up and throw out lawbreakers and so on. Read them to someone and say “the president said…” to people opposed to Trump and they will often tell you how hateful and racist the statements are. Yet they are actually Obama quotes, and suddenly those are NOT racist if HE said them. So we get plenty of examples across subjects where people let their prebias and judgements cloud their interpretation and judgement of things said.
A lot of the rhetoric in controversial topics is overly judgemental and bogus. Even if I don’t like someone it doesn’t mean everything they say or do is bad or malintended. Just as people I like aren’t perfect either and not always right. There is just too much conflict due to people not assuming good intentions and discussing the issues and facts instead of personal attacks and hate. Personal attacks just cause the same in and the real issues get lost.
Those that hate Trump forget how unliked Hillary Clinton was and her poor reputation for truth and honesty (polls showed about same as Trump). If she had won we would be hearing how she should have been in jail if the FBI and Obama hadn’t protected her, Russian influence ( money to Bill and her decisions as SECSTATE at least), campaign money apparently going to Clinton Foundation, ( compared to now: why has all the money dropped off since she lost if it wasn’t there to influence?). Of course if she had won those things wouldn’t be investigated, so conspiracy claims would be there! It isn’t like all would be peace and love if she had won instead of Trump. There isn’t really a difference. It is just the same old story of losers attacking the winners and who in power is supporting which side at the time.
I’m letting both of these posts through because they are reasoned, interesting, and non-inflammatory (in my reading). But I need to say that we ain’t goin’ there…. (As much as many of us would love to!)
I meant that I was just trying to explain to you why I posted that and not trying to post additional.
Yup, I got it! I just didn’t want people coming back by responding in a political vein and then have it ratchet up beyond control. I thought the comment itself was completely appropriate.
Dr. Ehrman:
What do you think of Peter Williams’ comments earlier this year that Jesus and Nicodemus (in that infamous conversation you said couldn’t have happened) spoke in Greek? Far fetched?
I think it’s completely implausible.
Thank you for expressing this. I am proud of my roots and heritage but saddened as well by the disconnection from the people who came from the same roots. I try to base my beliefs and opinions on information and evidence. Unfortunately, most of the people I know tend to process information and evidence through the lens of their belief and then twist or bend the information and evidence as necessary to justify their beliefs. Discussion of religion or politics typically creates animosity rather than understanding.
I was fortunate to see the cracks in the religious dogma in my late teens, before I became more emotionally invested in that dogma.
Indoctrinating children in religious authoritarianism is insidious. “Because God says so!” can make people hard-hearted and can rob them of their freedom and rational morality. I feel very sorry for them.
In Engineering where I work, logic must be applied or the product fails.
The Christian “product” is a method that professes to grant eternal life to temporal persons.
Your effort was challenge the source of the method; the Son of God, and you found it wanting, laughable I think.
This leaves us to analyze the material itself, or we have nothing. Can we obtain eternal life by applying logic to the central element of salvation through the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus? We cannot. No logic can be applied, for it is a declaration, not a principle or a method.
This doesn’t prove that Jesus did not have a method that works. It shows only that the establishment church doesn’t.
The crucifixion narrative will not bring eternal life any more than Mother Goose will.
But I do think the words and teachings of Jesus are useful to the purpose of obtaining eternal life. There is ample material on bookshelves listed as “Mysticism”. But this area is deemed taboo by church and society, so not an open path to the average person.
What’s left is nothing, yet a mass belief that many people cling to offers some stability and is better than nothing. And I think that is why the blind refusal to see what is obvious.
I appreciate your personal account of spiritual/professional growth. I was raised Roman Catholic and was an altar boy before and after mass in the vernacular was approved. The Latin had some magic, The English translation startled me. Ritual cannibalism? Then I saw a book in the college bookstore by Bertrand Russsel.
I am new to the blog, but have been reading your books. Not being a scholar myself, it’s been very helpful to learn so much about the New Testament and early church in layman’s terms. However, equally what has had an impact on me is posts and comments like this one. The fact that you recognize and acknowledge the hurt and even trauma that comes with ‘changing your mind’. I think it’s one of those things that unless you are raised or at least been in an evangelical belief system you can’t fully understand the emotional layers of leaving it behind. The mere acknowledgement that this is a difficult process has helped me to not feel alone. So, thank you for that.
You have stated before that ultimately it was the suffering in the world that you could not reconcile, for me it was the belief in Hell. I couldn’t live day to day believing everyone around me was going to burn in Hell for eternity. I had a choice of shifting my beliefs or having a nervous breakdown. I’m absolutely puzzled why this is not the situation for more Christians. It seems that I can only come up with two possibilities for people who say they believe in Hell but are able to live their daily life. 1. They don’t REALLY believe in Hell despite what they say or 2. They are a cold, hard person with a complete lack of empathy. With that said, I’m looking forward to your next book as that is the topic that ultimately drew me away from my faith.
Genuine thank you for not only your academia and scholarly posts but also these very ‘human’ posts.
The medieval concept of heaven & hell has done Christianity a great disservice in my view. How awful it is to hear Christians or Muslims saying that people will burn in hell. Can I recommend a very short book The Great Divorce by CS Lewis . I am sure Bart will have more to say on this issue In the future. As a Christian it is my duty to constantly seek out truth. No one viewpoint has all the answers. Jesus (possibly) told us to walk the narrow path but he didn’t say anything about having a narrow mind on the journey. This is why we need this blog.
I speak to many ex believers, and you are correct. The emotional baggage they carry. It sucks. And often the price they pay on leaving can be very high. This fellow:-
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Godless+in+dixie&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
– has a lot to say on such issues, as do these:-
http://voicesofdeconversion.com/home
– and these:-
https://exvangelicalpodcast.com
– and this fellow:-
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-thinking-atheist
Wow, four pages of comments. Guess this post struck a chord.
I am a great fan of your scholarship and have learned so much from you, even if I do not agree with a number of your assertions. To be honest, studying your work has only increased my belief in an authentically Catholic understanding of the faith.
I think I view your personal journey, as I have read what you have shared over the years, as largely being the result of being raised a Protestant that doesnt believe in reading texts in their historical context and with many of the anti-Catholic/Orthodox biases that accompany such a worldview. This is not a judgement of you…I grew up Quaker and largely avoided those preconceptions, that almost 99% of my family and extended family shared.
Seeking the truth will an open, sincere heart will NEVER offend Him. Ever. God bless you, sir.
Spot on! These are also my thoughts, but from someone with an evangelical tendency.
I’ve never struggled at all, at least with understanding, why people are unwilling to entrertain an investigation of the truth. Maybe it’s my penchant for human psychology — which is the core of my trade. I would posit in many cases we’re simply looking at a human being’s unwiliingness to remove themselves from what he/she considers the core of existence and that connection to a higher power. In common parlance, people need to feel important; It’s more vanity than faith. The audacity of actors, athletes and other lauded humans who’ve publicly thanked god forr their awards when other people have faced murder, rape and unthinkable atrocities without intervention is revelatory enough. Faith has a very clever hitch, where its greatest strengthening agent is an aversion to any challenge. In short, I don’t find it hard to see why anyone — even learned persons are unwillling to relinquish their “superior” positions. And the large working-class population is mired in family-life and long work hours. Unless one has a passionate interest in historical study, whatever time is left is spent entertaining oneself. And that cycle continues We just don’t live long enough to do it all.
What changed my mind was, around age 14 being convinced that I’d blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. The sin that can never be forgiven (by a God who forgives all sins) in the here and the hereafter. After several years of agony, I met folk I was taught were damnable heretics, and much to my surprise I found that they thought the same about we Methodists. And we both used God’s infallible and inerrant word, the bible, to prove our points against each other. Following that meeting it literally hit me as to the absurdity of the situation, and that likely we were all wrong. My faith began to drop away at that point. I am now an atheist, agnostic atheist to put a fine point on it.
Now I look back at fundamentalists and evangelicals and am always gob smacked that fallible humans can think that a book in some way and in some sense, gives them a degree of infallibility when, with a moments reflection, they would know that there are other groups just like them. They and those other groups likewise finger point each other for being damnable heretics while they themselves teach the truth, thanks to, well … Bible.
Give me believers who are just plain good folk, and who do good works even if as a result of their faith. But they can keep their theologies to themselves. Some of them (those theologies) are dark and vicious.
I do enjoy engaging fundamentalists and evangelicals though. I think their peculiar faith needs to be challenged. It’s damaging to so many people.
My parents were believers and we were very active in the church. But gee, I’m so glad they were good liberals.
People want certainty. If they learn that their religion is incorrect then that can basically wreck their life. Most people these days don’t want to sincerely search for the truth. It’s comfortable for them to stick to the stuff they grew up with.
Uncertainty, honest doubt, curiosity, wonder and a willingness to learn are all part of the same fundamental aspect of human conscioussness that we are given early in life. This aspect of cosnciousness is what makes every day – every moment – unique and it is what makes life an adventure worth living. The Westminster catechism puts it in religious terms: the chief aim of man is to worship God [the creator or originator of everything] and ENJOY him forever.
With all due respect, Bart, you are not giving the evangelicals enough credit. Simply because they have not changed their beliefs does not mean that they have not wrestled with the truth of them.
My son is illustrative. He was raised in a non-denominational, evangelical Christian church, and became a believer at a young age. He was active in the high school youth group and the music ministry. When he went to college at a state university, his faith was challenged and he went through a period in which he critically examined the veracity of the faith in which he was born and raised. Ultimately, he concluded that evangelical Christianity was true and it offered the best hope for mankind. He is now a pastor in another evangelical church and, he has reaffirmed and remained committed to his faith.
It would be unfair to denigrate him for “following the faith in which he was raised.” He did not mindlessly follow what he was taught as a child. Admittedly, I don’t know the life story of others who have remained committed to the faith they were taught as a child. However, I do not believe it is fair to criticize those people for “failing to explore options” unless you know that they never critically examined the faith into which they were born.
Sorry — I am absolutely not talking about *all* evangelicals. Simply because they don’t agree with me isn’t a reason for thinking they aren’t being introspective and rational. (!) I’m talking about specific people I know, who stick to their views come hell or high water and come up with fantastic explanations to allow them to continue thinking what they’ve always thought. That’s what I find frustrating: when someone applies a different kind of logic to everything else they think about, excpet about views they hold near and dear for other reasons. That’s true most noticeably in religion and politics — which may well be why, back in the day, it was considered impolite to talk about them!
OK Bart, so here is a question that occurs to me: You say you lost your faith, not because of manuscript errors, NT contradictions, problems with accepting supernatural events as a historian etc etc, but you say that you lost your faith because of the problem of evil (I’ve paraphrased you by using the well-worn phislosophical turn of phrase). So, here’s the question. In your mind, are your scholarly, historically-critical, sceptical views of scripture absolutely incomaptible with any form of evangelical Christianity? To ellucidate the question further, I’m not talking about your personal views, I am referring only to your scholarly views, which are obviously incomaptiable with fundamentalism which considers the bible as inerrant, but are your scholarly views incompatible with the following key points of evangelical Christianity? (as I see it 🙂 )
1. God exists – I define God as the conscious creator of everything
2. God loves us
3. We are sinners – which I defiine as rebels and and failers to live up to even what we hold as good and right
4. Jesus was sent by God as as both a messenger/teacher of righteousness, an ‘identifier’ with the human condition and a sacrifice (or ransom) for our sin
5. Jesus was not a ‘failed apocalypticist’ (I had to get that one in 🙂 ….. but remember: scholarly conclusions only, not personal opinion)
6. Jesus rose physically from the dead
7. Jesus is coming back phsyically to bring justice/righteosuness to the world in some way
No, there is no scholarship on the Bible that would be able to refute any of these claims. That’s why scholarship on the Bible is not damaging to theological views based on faith (rather than historical scholarship).
That’s kinda what I thought, but really good to hear it from the maestro. If I’m honest (as you were), it’s also an encouragment to me.
Much Appreciated
“I’m talking about specific people I know, who stick to their views come hell or high water and come up with fantastic explanations to allow them to continue thinking what they’ve always thought. That’s what I find frustrating: when someone applies a different kind of logic to everything else they think about, except about views they hold near and dear for other reasons. That’s true most noticeably in religion and politics — which may well be why, back in the day, it was considered impolite to talk about them!”
Okay, but as you seem to recognize at the end of your comment, this is a bit of a universal feeling. For example, as a free market near-absolutist, I am constantly frustrated by those who continue to advance arguments in favor of state control of the means and methods of production and distribution. But, even recognizing that their minds seem impenetrable, I also have to wrestle with their ideas — which, though I disagree with them, are not without merit.
A persuasive argument can be made that your views on certain issues seem insusceptible to change, even where there is strong (indeed, perhaps, overwhelming) evidence to the contrary; for example, on post-crucifixion burial, or on what works Papias referenced when he named Gospels by Matthew and Mark.
My views are not at all insusceptible to change. The two you mention are ones that I actually *did* change. And I’m completely open to changing my views back.
The fact that i’m in the the minority on these particular issues doesn’t make me wrong. And it doesn’t make me right. One needs to look at the evidence and weigh it out — without prejudging the issue. (Most people simply look at the evidence and dismiss it if it disagrees with what they already think. We all do that. But I’m urging us not to.)
Thanks for clarifying, Bart. I agree with your more limited characterization. In fact, I think if we’re honest with ourselves, we all look at life through a worldview that somewhat distorts events and news. And certainly religion and politics are the two primary subjects for which we “bend” the truth so that it fits with our preferred perspective.
“I’ll try to put it in the most direct terms here: how is it at all plausible, or humanly possible, that someone can question, explore, look into, consider the beliefs they were taught as a young child (in the home, in church, in … whatever context) and after 40 years of thinking about it decide that everything they were taught is absolutely right?”
I hope Bart can appreciate that this is a form of circular reasoning, to wit: how is it possible that someone can spend years of studying only to find answers in what they were originally taught? Bart may be ultimate correct that he is right and his intellectual adversaries are wrong on the facts. But this line of argument/logic presupposes that the original teaching was wrong.
Assuming that acquired knowledge will lead to a better understanding of the truth than “the original teaching” makes considerable sense in approaching subjects that have not been well plowed. For example, one would readily imagine that studying the production process for a movie released in 2019 will lead to a more accurate understanding of that process than merely relying on one early source for what happened.
But, on the flip side, one could study about World War II for entire lifetime and yet retain the basic core facts of that war from its original teaching, i.e., that Hitler was a wild anti-Semite, that England and France declared War on Germany after the invasion of Poland, that Germany subsequently invaded the Soviet Union, that the U.S. entered the War after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, that the Western Front in Europe changed dramatically with the invasion of Normandy, that the British, Soviets and Americans divided the conquered Germany, and that the Japanese surrendered shortly after two atomic bombs were dropped on the Japanese mainland.
No matter how much time one devotes to studying about World War II, those core facts — which can be learned from an early childhood “original teaching” — will not change. Indeed, if a revisionist attempted to convince someone that his “decades of study” had led him to a belief that those core facts were wrong, established historians would label that person a crank.
So, Bart may be right about the NT, and his intellectual adversaries may be wrong. But it’s not because he changed his mind over time and they didn’t.
I’m just sayin’ that if three kids are taught different things (say, about God and the nature of the world and science etc.) in their childhoods in Beirut or Tibet or Siberia, and then they look into it when they’re older, and all conclude they have been right their entire lives — well, it seems implausible to me they in fact *have* been right all along.
About 45 years ago, I decided there were many things I could not believe about the bible and in the bible. I started studying in earnest authors like you…those whose education brought them to doubt traditional Christianity. I gave up a belief in a heaven and a hell at that time. And about 90% of my former belief system. I do believe in a god.but only as a spirit that might try to help us decide the path to take as we go through our lives….
Other then that, I asked myself what I could still believe and found that I could believe Jesus lived and taught some very valuable theology…. mostly about love and respect for others and for creation.. Everything else is up for grabs. I believe Jesus was a human that was crucified for teaching things the Romans didn’t like and they thought he was trying to overthrow their kingdom because he was teaching about God’s kingdom.
I believe those that cannot bring themselves to give up their childlike belief systems are just stuck and searching for security.
I am 83 and will be 84 in December. I don’t need traditional religion to give me security.
“I bet if you press him he would regretfully inform you that I probably will be roasting in hell.”
As a sola scriptura Christian, Peter William shouldn’t inform us thus, because roasting in hell for an eternity for people with the wrong religious views (as opposed to truly wicked people referred in the gospels deserving gehenna) is not in the Bible. Least he harbours any doubt, Peter needs to read Bart’s forthcoming book on the subject!
By the way, British evangelicals are less fundamentalist than their American counterparts. Many self-identified British evangelicals do not have firm views on the post-mortem fate of nonbelievers.
He could appeal to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, or the Lake of Fire in Revelation. That’s true of many British evangelicals, but my sense is that they (the many) do not think that the Bible can’t have any errors of any kind in it. Or do they?
Evangelicals like Peter should be receptive to your interpretation of Lazarus and the Rich Man, whereby the latter ended up in hell because he hasn’t used his wealth in order to help those who were poor, a sin Peter surely cannot accuse Bart of committing. Prima facie, the lake of fire in Revelation is reserved for truly wicked people and worshippers of the Beast.
British evangelical biblical scholars and theologians probably take an attitude to the Bible similar to Michael Licona – they would affirm inerrancy, but do not think evangelicalism depends on it, and are open to use of hyperbole in the Bible (e.g. Licona’s treatment of the resurrected saints in Matthew – an approach that have cost his former job at Southern Evangelical Seminary).
Mike at least admits that the story of the zombies coming out of their tombs in Matthew 27 is not historical.
Dr Ehrman –
Do you have any upcoming speaking engagements in the near future? Sorry to bug you direct – your site lists nothing after the recent Greece/Turkey trip.
Thanks!
Next thing up is a talk at the Smithsonian Associates in D.C. in early September: https://smithsonianassociates.org/ticketing/tickets/more-great-controversies-in-early-christianity-bart-ehrman-ponders-four-new-questions?utm_source=RAad&utm_medium=OAtsa&utm_content=mwX&utm_campaign=MayWe
Yup, I need to update my schedule on my web page!
Awesome, thanks!
I am a conservative reformed Baptist who loves you Bart, and I empathize with your journey. I have had a very, very long road to get to where I am now. Countless hours of study, conversing with scholars about different questions I had, etc. I just want to believe what is true, and I believe the Christian worldview makes the most sense. Even though there are questions that will probably always remain unanswered, don’t you think the same can be said about any other worldview? So just because you aren’t a Christian anymore doesn’t mean that you lost faith – it just means that you are placing your faith somewhere else. But that “somewhere else”, the atheistic/agnostic worldview, still has many questions that will probably always remain unanswered.
Yes, I’m very late to this post, but am trying to catch up. This one is really interesting and personal, so I’d like to comment.
My spiritual journey is very similar to Bart’s. I got “saved” when I was 20 in 1974 in a Southern Baptist Church. I left the SBC because I was influenced to think that they were “too liberal” (let that sink in). From 75-78 I was a student at Baptist Bible College of PA. I was an ardent fundamentalist, inerrantist, recent creationist, you get the idea. From 78-84 I worked on my ThM from Grace Theo Sem in Indiana, where among other classes, I learned about biblical creationism from John Whitcomb himself.
By the time I left Grace, however, I was no longer a fundamentalist. Something happened that broke the “spell” of fundamentalism. I went on to be an evangelical, later a liberal Christian, then in 1995 I left ministry and returned to my atheist roots. But how did this happen?
About 20 years ago, I wrote a “spiritual autobiography” in which I tried to answer how I broke the “spell” and why my former fundamentalist friends had not. I believe it boiled down to epistemology. When you think the Bible is inerrant, it is the source of all knowledge and trumps everything else.. Even though I had been taught how to refute challenges to inerrancy, there were a series of events in my life that worked together to create a crack in that belief. I won’t go into all of it, but a key event was reading Stephen Davis’ book “Debate about the Bible: Inerrancy vs Infallibility” the summer before I graduated. He clearly demonstrated that the Bible is SELF-contradictory in ways that can’t be explained away. At least, it was clear to me. But maybe that’s because I had had previous incidents that prepared me for it.
As I started my final semester, I no longer believed in inerrancy–at a school that viewed it an essential belief! I kept my mouth shut and got my degree. Once inerrancy was broken, other concepts began to fall. Within months of graduating, I read a book that convinced me that creationism was wrong, and the scientists were right. After that, one question led to another and another–as described above.
Arguing with believers about anything other than epistemology is a waste of time. It’s the key.