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Loading...In response to a question from years ago about the problems posed to critical scholars by the Hebrew Bible I have so far provided two posts, one involving the surviving manuscripts (do we know what the authors originally said?) and the other with apparent discrepancies (where accounts appear to be at odds with one another). I will now provide a couple of posts dealing with the equally big problem that the Hebrew Bible narrates events that probably did not take place, at least as described.
Today I will provide a chunk from my forthcoming book on the Bible about the exodus event under Moses, in which Moses led the children of Israel out from their slavery in Egypt and a great miracle transpired at the parting of the Sea of Reeds (traditionally called the Red Sea), where the children of Israel were allowed to cross on dry land before the waters rushed back destroying Pharaoh’s entire army (as narrated in Exodus 14). It’s an absolutely amazing, terrific story. But it does not appear to be historical. Here are some reasons why:
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Exodus from a Historical Perspective
It has proved difficult for biblical scholars to establish when these events are to have taken place. The most common dating of the exodus event places it around 1250 BCE, for three reasons.
First, the text indicates that the Israelites had been in Egypt for 430 years; that would coincide roughly with the narrative of Genesis, when Joseph would have gone to Egypt at the beginning of the 17th century BCE, according to the chronology that appears to be operative there (in Genesis). But even more important is a hint provided in Exod. 1:11, that the Hebrew slaves were forced to build the cities of Pi-Ramses and Pithon; both cities actually were rebuilt or reoccupied in the mid-13th century BCE.
The third is an archaeological discovery of….
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Thank you for a informative post as always. Really enjoy the blog.
Just for the fun of it. If we calculate the population growth for 430 yrs. Starting with 70 people. The outcome is 349 thousand people given a 2% growth rate. Now in antiquity the growth rate would probably been lower due illness, warfare, etc. Furthermore, my country has been inhabited by the same ethnic group for the last 1100 years. We are only around 320.000 and the first settlers were more than 70. Many lived in the beginning with hardship. Volcanos and other elements of nature have had a negative mark in our population growth. I expect that similar things would have been in Egypt such as famine, drought, etc.
I seem to recall a reference (yours?) to a theory that the Israelites dwelt in Canaan long before the story of the promised land. And that they rose to prominence because a disease that ravaged the low landers spared the mountain dwelling Israelites.
I’m not sure whose specific view that is.
I think some others have pointed out that it would take quite some time for two million people on foot, with children and some animals and surely a lot of provisions (utensils and tools if not food) to cross the Red Sea, or Sea of Reeds. And they are being chased by soldiers in war chariots propelled by galloping horses? And somehow while this long, long, snake of human beings winds slowly through a miraculous rift in the Red Sea, or Sea of Reeds, the Egyptians only manage to catch up when the last person has managed to cross, and only just then are the pursuers able to begin the crossing themselves?? There is something about his picture that strains credulity to the limit. And if it is a sea of reeds, that suggests something rather shallow, so no miracle required to part the sea. That part of the story is simply silly.
Do you think the Jews were ever in Egypt or is that a myth as well?
Yup, there were. And still are!
Jeremiah went. Jesus too!. And do not forget about Josephus and Philo as well!
Is it also legend that all the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt?
Yes, indeed, I strongly think so.
if according to the book of Exodus Pharaoh and his the “entire army” (see 14:6, 9, 23) were destroyed in the Sea of Reeds
I know you know this, Dr. Ehrman, but others may not as it is a common misconception, but the account in Exodus does not say that Pharaoh was killed in the Sea of Reeds, just his men. It’s true that the author of Psalm 136 seems to be of a different opinion, but many later commentators felt that Pharaoh indeed survived the destruction of his army.
The passage in Exodus 14 indicates that Pharoah was leading the army, and it says the entire army was destroyed; so that’s usually taken to mean he was too, no? (Obviously it never says he wasn’t killed; or specficially that he was. But since he was at the head of hte army and the army was killed by the waters, what would make a reader think he wasn’t?)
I’ve read that the Exodus story is based on a smaller group of exiles from a town called something close to Yaweh who left Egypt and merged with ancient Israelis. They credited their escape to their god, The theory is that’s where ancient Israel got their god, and there’s archeological evidence of a significant but not massive population growth around that time. Did I dream this theory?
Parts of that theory are often held; but I don’t recall hearing anything about a town named Yahweh (or something close to it)
That sounds like the Shasu of YHW, where the YHW was a toponym. However, on the Merneptah Stele, both the Shasu and the Isrealites are depicted.
I got this from the Wikipedia article on the Shasu. The article seems to be written from both sides, though the need for citations is clear.
Dr. Ehrman,
I have read accounts where it’s claimed that most of the Exodus is either myth or, at best, symbolic and the Israelites were what we now called ‘Hyksos’ who were expelled from Egypt some time the past.
Can you comment on that, or do you talk about it in your book?
Yes, the idea is that the sons of Jacob who descended into Egypt actually represent the Hyksos invasions into Egypt known from about that time. I’m nt sure that’s a theory held widely any more, but I’m not *completely* sure! More likely there were some stories about some people coming out of Egypt and resettling in Canaan, and these stories got magnified over time into a kind of “invasion” of Egypt and a later “Exodus” out of it.
Richard Elliot Friedman has a book “The Exodus: How It Happened and Why It Matters” where he argues that it was only the Levites who made the Exodus from Egypt. One of his arguments is that only the Levites in the Hebrew Bible possessed Egyptian names.
Couple the fantasy of the Exodus with the equally fantastic and contradictory biblical account of the ten plagues that befell Egypt before the Exodus and you have two pieces of legend.
Add the events that were supposed to have transpired during the Exodus, especially the fantasy of Moses, Mt. Sinai, and the Ten Commandments, and you have even more legend. This fantasy would have us believe that until Mt. Sinai the Israelites did not understand that murder, rape, theft, genocide, etc. were immoral and criminal and needed those stone tablets for their moral education. If humans did not have this understanding as an innate guide to fostering human solidarity for the thousands of years that humans lived in social groups prior to Exodus, then those fugitive Israelites would never have made it to the foot of Mt. Sinai. The state of Israel would have self-destructed long before that.
And, of course, the finale of Exodus, entering the Promised Land, negates all of the Ten Commandments fantasy since the Hebrew God commands the Israelites to engage in a massive land grab and commit murder, rape, enslavement, ethnic cleansing, and genocide on the inhabitants. Arguably the most immoral event in the Hebrew bible.
One of the points I like to bring out to biblical literalist is the tenth plague. Just ask a Christian or a religious Jew to explain why God killed tens of thousands of innocent children . Yet Passover is treated as a joyous holiday . I remind them to imagine the suffering of the mothers and fathers of these children. Seriously, God could not find a better way to rescue the Jews from slavery than by killing innocent children ? I then point out the absurdity that God needed lambs blood to distinguish his chosen people. Really, God couldn’t figure out who the Jews were in Egypt without them splashing lamb’s blood on the front door? Most religious people have a really hard time with this one.
When Israeli historians and archaeologists agree that there is no evidence for an exodus, I think that’s pretty good non-evidence for such an event. Of course, you can sometimes prove that an event did occur (like the eruption of Vesuvius, which was captured in stone), but it’s really hard to prove that an event did NOT occur! Oh yes, maybe there was a conspiracy by the Egyptians to cover up the exodus of millions of slaves, and the destruction of their land, water and livestock, but really, come on? I think there may be a link between conspiracy buffs and religion – but I don’t claim any proof of that!
As central as the Exodus tradition is in Israel’s history, some OT scholars point out the presence of alternative traditions in the texts. In some of the Pre-Exilic Prophetic oracles that refer to both Egypt and the origins of Israel no mention is made of slavery in Egypt. In the descriptions of the origins of some of the Jewish festivals the story of the Exodus seems to have been tacked onto pre-existing Canaanite traditions. In these alternative stories the most primeval tradition seems to be the idea of a nomadic people coming out of the “wilderness” and this seems to pre-date the story of the Exodus and slavery in Egypt by centuries
Fascinating stuff.
Professor Ehrman:
If two million slaves escaped from Egypt, and the army was destroyed, this would be a significant event, and we surely would find some mention of it.
Other nations of the region would have been ecstatic to learn that Egypt could no longer field an army; surely they would have swooped down to the south to take over that fertile land. But we have no such record of the event and no other nation came in to take advantage of the situation.
Steefen:
While you brought up some valuable analysis, the second paragraph above is incorrect. Joseph and his brothers were in the Delta city of Avaris. There is archaeological evidence of this. This city harkened Moses at the end of his exile. Moses would have had to go to the city where Jacob/Israel and his 12 sons had lived–the city where Joseph, second in command to a pharaoh lived. (I agree with you that the number of people in the Exodus is too large, especially for Avaris as the city of origin.) People from the Canaanite area were called Asiatics. In the archaeological record, the Asiatic quarter of Avaris was abandoned after a plague (similar to the Israelites leaving Egypt proper (areas along the Nile, including the Nile branches in the Delta).
Now, here is the clash, why I say you are incorrect about “we have no record of another nation coming to take advantage of the situation.” After the Asiatics [Israelites, generations after Joseph] abandoned their section of Avaris, the Hyksos did swoop in. The Upper Kingdom of Southern Egypt was threatened and had to push them out.
It was less an Exodus of the Asiatics of Avaris that made the Lower Kingdom of Northern Egypt threatened and appetizing to the Hyksos invaders but more so the fallout of the Thera eruption along the eastern Mediterranean region that probably prompted the Hyksos to charge south into the Egyptian Delta but the meteorological fallout from Thera had even reached Avaris.
The archaeological dating of the fall of Jericho prevents the Exodus from happening after the descent of the Hyksos. How, then, were the Hebrew slaves working on Pi-Ramesses? The centuries-later writers used the then name of the Delta region, not the name of the Delta region at the time when a) Moses could have come out of exile to his ancestors’ hometown of Avaris and b) Israelites/Asiatics abandoned the Asiatic quarter of the city.
See the book Exodus: Myth or History by David Rohl, Egyptologist. The book has 67 amazon reviews averaging 5-stars.
Unfortunately, it is not at the Dallas Public Library. // When I check the Plano, TX library, the DVD of the documentary video is available at one branch and that DVD is unavailable at the moment. // When I check the Collin County College Libraries, it is not there. // When I check UNC Chapel Hill library catalog, it is not there. // Finally, when I check the New York Public Library catalog, the book is not available, but the DVD of the documentary video, “Patterns of Evidence: Exodus” is.
I think I would give the book 4 out of 5 stars because 1) it does not have an index and 2) the Exodus plagues cannot be discussed without the Minoan eruption, the eruption of the Thera volcano. Furthermore, he goes against the traditional datings of that eruption, even though the Austrian archaeologist who excavated Avaris found pumice there. Because he does not have an index, I do not know where I am going to find his discussion of Thera. When I wrote to him, he said he has another book coming out with an appendix on his dating of the Minoan eruption occurring during the 18th Dynasty. Furthermore, how can you have the Ipuwer Papyrus/Admonitions of Ipuwer dating to the Exodus from Avaris without the Exodus plagues of Thera fallout reaching Avaris?
Did Moses Exist? by DM. Murdock has a wonderful chapter on the logistics of moving two million people. How would you even get them all marching? At six abreast how long would the line be? How could they stay in one spot for decades and never leave a trace?
I wouldn’t put stock in anything D. M. Murdock says. I bought two of her books, but never got past the first chapter of either one. Why? It’s immensely difficult for me to take a self-proclaimed scholar seriously when she ends every other sentence with an exclamation point.
Yeah, it’s worse than that. She is incredibly ignorant, and doesn’t realize it. Or if she does realize it, she’s massively defensive in declaring her expertise. But really, genuinely, she is remarkably uninformed….
Bart,
Thank you for the post. I read Richard Elliott Friedman’s book Exodus where he argues that an exodus really occurred that is close enough to the Exodus to be the Exodus, even if the number of people involved was much smaller than 2 million people. He argues that the religious, cultural, and historical significance was out of proportion to the numbers. He combines various kinds of evidence including, most importantly, textual analysis. I found his arguments persuasive, although I have no expertise. Have you read it and what do you think? He also discusses the state of the field and argues that researchers that reject the (small) Exodus are not engaging with the arguments of those that find evidence for it. This is an important charge if true. Thoughts?
Thanks!
I haven’t read it. But by “textual analysis” I assume you mean a detailed study of the hebrew bible? The problem is that there’s not evidence *outside* the Bible. We certainly know the Hebrew Bible supports the idea of some kind of exodus! But yes, I too tend to think there was some kind of resettlment of immigrants from Egypt in Canaan, and teh stories of their transition came to be blown up and exaggerated hugely over time.
Ah, right. “Textual criticism” is a technical phrase with a specific meaning. I just meant a detailed study. I’d say Friedman argues that there is evidence outside the Bible, albeit not standalone. If you ever read this work, I would be very curious about your opinion, especially his views on the state of scholarship on this. Research areas can get into trouble and it’s interesting when they do. There is an increase of physicists saying this is happening in physics now (as opposed to cranks claiming to be Galileo).
Ah, I wasn’t meaning “textual criticism” in that sense, but was agreeing that you must have meant “textual analysis” — that is the detailed interpretation of the literary text. My only point is that we know the text supports an exodus, on both the surface and deep level, but that there’s no external (archaeological/material) evidence of it. And I believe that’s factually true. There isn’t. (See Finkelstein and Siverman Unearthing the Bible).
Could you comment on the arguments in “The Exodus” by Richard Elliott Friedman (probably best known by readers of the blog for his “Who Wrote The Bible?”)
[For others who’ve not read Friedman’s book the quick summary is, roughly, that while the full story of the Exodus is not historical the story may record a memory of the group who eventually became the Levites (and later joined with the Israelite tribes) originating in Egypt.]
All that said, I’ve several times recommended Friedman’s book to friends as an excellent example of how to use primarily textual evidence to support a historical argument (regardless of whether you necessarily agree with the resulting conclusion.)
here’s what I just wrote in comment to someone els’s similar remark / question:
I haven’t read it. The problem is that there’s not evidence *outside* the Bible. We certainly know the Hebrew Bible itself supports the idea of some kind of exodus! But yes, I too tend to think there was some kind of resettlment of immigrants from Egypt in Canaan, and teh stories of their transition came to be blown up and exaggerated hugely over time.
Have you read “The Invention of God” by Thomas Romer? This is probably right up your alley in relation to this subject.
Nope! Thanks.
I am surprised that in your long blogging career, you have never examined Jesus and Biblical history as portrayed in the Quran and Islam. I understand you are no scholar of Islam or the Quran, and would rather differ to Orientalists, but there is an entire culture and the second largest religion that has its own views about the Bible, Jesus, Moses, Covenant, who the historical Jesus was etc. and you have not interacted with it at all. Could we perhaps see you blog on your perception of Jesus as portrayed in Islamic sources?
By the way, this is not an attack on Muslims or Islam. I am not a Muslim myself, but I respect Muslims very much. And I am sure our Muslim friends would also be very interested to see what you have to say about these subjects.
Thanks Dr Ehrman for today’s awesome post
Yeah, maybe I should at some time. I haven’t done so mainl because I stick to sources near the time of the events themselves; for the historical Jesus that would be sources from teh first two centuries, not centuries later. The Qur’an would have received its information from earlier texts and traditoins that its authors read/heard, and the information is indeed important for understanding the Qur’an and ealry Christian-Muslim relations, but not for understanding the historical Jesus himself (or the early Gospels), imho.
Well, the Da Vinci code was decidedly not written anywhere near the first few centuries of Christianity, and yet, since many people had questions about the Da Vinci code’s version of Christian history, historical Jesus etc, you analyzed the book’s conclusions. What I was wondering is, why hasn’t the same interest been seen in the Islamic view of all these subjects?
And to make it clear, I am not interested in “sticking it” to the Muslims. I have high respect for Muslims. But it just baffles me slightly, that even though, you have offered your opinions on the Quranic manuscript fragment… The Islamic view of Jesus, Bible, The Convenant, Exodus etc has almost completely escaped any significant comments in the history of this blog.
Islam is the second largest religion in the world. We are talking about 1.9 billion believers, who have their own conceptions of the Historical Jesus, Bible, textual criticism (you name it). So it’s definitely something that I think we would all appreciate, both, non-Muslims, like myself, and Muslims, who may happen to frequent this blog.
It would definitely be very interesting from all sides.
Thanks Bart!
I”m interested in many, many things that I’ll never write about! Wish I had more lifetimes. But I’m not an expert in Islam and to write anything competently about the Quran, even if it was just about the Quran’s views of Jesus, I would need to acquire more expertise. And I’m too busy doing other things. I’m afraid it’s just the reality of my life….
That’s understandable. Thanks for what you write about already
What about the theory that there was a minor “Exodus like” event? I have heard this idea even from William G Dever. The idea is that there was some limited, tribal movement out of Egypt of some Semitic people, that later was described much more colorfully in the Book of Exodus. Any thoughts on that?
Yes, I think probably something like that. Dever is a veyr fine scholar of such things.
I think Dr. Bart has mentioned it before but I loved Dever’s “Who Were the Ancient Israelites and Where did they Come from?” This book definitely covers that. “The Exodus” by Richard Elliot Friedman is also a great interpretation. I Alonso recommend the PBS documentary “Ancient Secrets of the Bible” which partially covers the Exodus and features many of the scholars that Dr. Bart has mentioned and or cited.
It has always intrigued me to think that if there were three million Israelites who left Egypt and they were walking 20 abreast and perhaps in ranks a metre apart then the line would stretch back over 90 miles. Think how long it would take to cross the Red Sea!
In addition, I have read that in light of Deuteronomy 23:12,13 (which perhaps indelicately speaks of the rules for using latrines which had to be placed outside any camp area) any family settled down in the middle of the encampment housing such a multitude might have to walk a mile or more to relieve themselves!
Bart Ehrman said:
“Biblical scholars have long identified a number of difficulties that the exodus account presents– making it hard to think that everything happened as it is described in the book.”
The “difficulties” and “errors” in Exodus are so evident that many Christian apologists, especially the champions of biblical inerrancy, have tried to give implausible and even comic and ridiculous explanations to these discrepancies, which worsen even the scarce, for not say none, credibility of the Bible.
About what Dr. Ehrman writes, here is a fun example:
EXODUS 6: 16–20 — How could the people of Israel have been in Egypt for 430 years when there were only three generations between Levi and Moses?
https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Exodus_6.16-20.php
There are many more desperate attempts to explain the inesplicable at https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-difficulties/ , in the Exodus heading.
Two very funny and certainly twisted and original:
EXODUS 7: 11 — HOW COULD THE WISE MEN AND SORCERERS OF PHARAOH PERFORM THE SAME FEATS OF POWER THAT GOD TOLD MOSES TO PERFORM?
https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Exodus_7.11.php
EXODUS 9: 19–21 — IF ALL THE CATTLE DIED, THEN HOW DID SOME SURVIVE?
https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Exodus_9.19-21.php
Enjoy!
Will you be examining the evidence for Saul, David and Solomon in this thread? I did some research many years ago and recall that there was some anecdotal evidence for the first, a little more for somebody who might have been the original David and none at all for Solomon. Although, having just re-read the relevant passage from the Bible Unearthed, Finkelstein and Silberman appear to think that both David and Solomon were historical characters, albeit nothing like their biblical descriptions. I’d be very interested in your view.
They are real experts and critical thinkers. David certainly started some kind of dynasty and the “house of David” is mentioned in a non-Israelite source. He certainly had sons — whether one was named Solomon, I don’t recall just now any evidence of it.
Do you think some sort of exodus from egypt happened? – however much the current version is covered in legend.
My guess is that there was a small group of immigrants from Egypt who settled in Canaan and over the years, decades, and centuries their background stories came to be exaggerated hugely, leading to the accounts in Exodus.
Exaggerated hugely, how?
Respectable scripture criticism and the answer to that question would involve considering whether or not the Avaris Asiatic community Exodus historical account has been conflated with the Hyksos Expulsion historical account, not simply overstating or mythologizing the Avaris Asiatic community Exodus with no regard for the Hyksos Expulsion.
Conflating two historical accounts is different from exaggerating one historical account, yes?
Yes, those are two different kinds of literary and oral activities, closely related in ways.
Hey Bart!
You’ve written a lot on the blog about Bruce Metzger. But I don’t recall you writing about J. Christiaan Beker. perhaps you could share some stories with us about that scholar as well?
Many thanks! 🙂
Ha! I have a million stories about him. But most people don’t know who he is, and so wouldn’t find them that intriguing. But it’s an interesting idea — I’ll think about it.
So The Exodus didn’t happen–but did AN exodus, or several? Without all the divine intervention? Is this a complete myth, or a heavily embellished memory of enslaved Jews escaping back to Israel? It’s hardly a myth that slaves escape bondage–or dream of doing so. There’s a reason enslaved Africans and their progeny ended up being exceptionally devout Christians, even when their masters whipped them for for it. (And yes, that happened.)
As to the exaggerated numbers, I remember studying The Crusades in college–all historians agreed the numbers given by the chroniclers like Fulcher of Chartres were massively overblown. It was a convention–in many cases, they didn’t know how many soldiers were in a battle, or how many were killed. If they did, they still wanted to make it sound like more. A literary convention, let’s call it. That lives on to this day at Trump rallies. 😉
My guess is that there was a small group of immigrants from Egypt who settled in Canaan and over the years, decades, and centuries their background stories came to be exaggerated hugely, leading to the accounts in Exodus.
It is fascinating to read your writings– endeavors to clarify, prove or disprove the biblical stories which are common in some form to all 3 Abrahamic religions (acknowledging that Judaism, being the first, does not include NT). Scripture & its commentary give me great insight into human behavior, which clearly hasn’t changed much in 3000 years. However, as a “believer” (since age 4), it is the 10 commandments & Jesus’ subsequent “simplification” (in words) & illustration (in parables & his own deeds–even if not entirely true or provable) of them are my take away message. My faith in God does not depend on my believing that either the Bible or the humans who wrote it and made up so many subsequent rules of the various religions are inerrant. I understand that God exists, not as some magical genie who can grant our wishes or take away human suffering, but as a source of strength to live by and to get by in this chaotic world of ours. The story of the 10 commandments, really a “code of conduct”, that God gave to Moses, has survived ~3000 years. I have found no reason at all to reject those rules (even if there are slight differences in various versions & distortions in interpretation by conservative zealots). I believe God gives us free choice (including in interpretation) & there are consequences to our actions. Jesus called out the religious hypocrites (who have persisted until this day, on full display) and tried to teach mankind what was really important. I think his suffering and death on the cross were illustrative that life is not always fair & that indeed bad things happen to good people. Paul, the apostle, took and spread Christ’s message to ALL people, not just the Jews. It is flawed humanity that continues to mess it up, to distort it, to attempt to ruin it.
Dr. Ehrman,
This is an amazing story. Do you think that there was a historic version of this story that took place? Maybe 200-400 hundred slaves fled with Moses and wondered the desert. By the time the events were recorded it had just magnified to what we read today.
Thanks, Jay
My guess is that there was a small group of immigrants from Egypt who settled in Canaan and over the years, decades, and centuries their background stories came to be exaggerated hugely, leading to the accounts in Exodus.
Excellent summary. Thanks
I think it is clear we need to stay out of the Old Testament. There is some good in the New Testament.
There is some Old Testament in the New Testament,
We need to rise above it and focus more on positive, life, good, loving-kindness, etc.
Focus: I agree. But there’s a lot of that in the OT too!
I’d be curious to know….what’s your best guess at what really happened? An exodus of smaller scale? No exodus at all?
My guess is that there was a small group of immigrants from Egypt who settled in Canaan and over the years, decades, and centuries their background stories came to be exaggerated hugely, leading to the accounts in Exodus.
“Hundreds of chariots cannot be found at the bottom of any of the bodies of water that would be candidates for the Sea of Reeds”
Do you consider the Gulf of Aqaba (at Nuweiba, on the Egyptian side) to be a candidate for the Sea of Reeds? There is a kind of “raised ramp” under the water here; this is well-known and verifiable scientifically i.e. there is a region, starting at Nuweiba in Egypt, such that if the water were removed, we would see the sea floor descend at a slope of about 10 degrees towards the middle, and then ascend by about the same number of degrees towards the land in Midian. This would make it feasible for the Israelites to cross if the miracle were to happen. A geographer named Glen Fritz investigated these issues for his doctoral dissertation and published the results in a book in which he defended the Gulf of Aqaba as the site of the crossing of the Exodus.
One could verify or falsify this version of the Exodus story, but nobody has yet been given permission to investigate the stretch of sea floor going across the Gulf of Aqaba starting at Nuweiba. So we can’t say hundreds of chariots have *not* been found there.
Probably not: the geographical references suggest an area far to the north of the Gulf.
Just curious, If nobody has been allowed to “investigate that stretch of seafloor”, then what is the basis for thinking it is shaped like a ‘raised ramp’?
“Moreover, as it turns out, we still have the mummy of Raamses II”
This is true, but it does not mean that he wasn’t drowned in the Sea of Reeds. The bodies of people who die out at sea frequently get washed ashore, and this might have happened with Rameses’ body if he drowned in the Exodus incident.
The reason dead bodies get washed ashore — rather than sinking to the bottom of the sea — is interesting. Initially, the bodies do sink; but the processes of decay in the newly dead bodies create gases within them, which fill them up, make them buoyant, and cause them to float to the surface. From there, waves can wash them ashore. (All this could have happened to the dead body of the Pharaoh of the Exodus, in other words).
Maybe theoretically so? But since all the Egyptians were killed, who took his corpse back to be mummified? And there are huge other problems too…
Some additional thoughts: Bart wrote: “How could the great grandchildren of the twelve sons of Jacob number well over two million?” Just for the fun of it. The decedents of my eight grandparents are 2.396 i.e. 1.227 males and 1.169 females. Including the newest decedent born 16th of August this year.. Many of these decedents had many children e.g. my mother had 11 siblings.
So my answer to Barts question is; “It´s a miracle”..
Ha! Right! And not even the biggest one!
Even for some ancient Jews like Theraputae, described by Philo of Alexandria in his De Vita Contemplativa, Exodus was a mystic experience, mysterium of passing from material realm to spiritual realm.
I should point out that this is another case in which the issues facing Muslims are different from those facing Christians and Jews. On some points, they do not face the same issues, and on others they face wholly new issues unrelated to the Biblical narrative.
The Quran says that the Israelites were a small band, and nowhere says that the men numbered 600,000; the men chasing after the Israelites with Pharaoh were drowned, but it is never said that all the army of the Pharaoh was drowned (he surely didn’t need all his soldiers to chase a small band); there is only one Pharaoh, responsible for both enslaving the Israelites, and chasing the Israelites during the Exodus; the preservation of the Pharaoh’s body is explicitly mentioned, so that he could be a “sign for those after him”; Moses is presented as preaching a doctrine of preparing for the Afterlife; Pharaoh has a wife who believes in Moses and his God, and prays for a house near God in Paradise; the magicians fall prostrate after being defeated by Moses, and declare their belief in the “Lord of Moses and Aaron”.
I had an interesting thought about the Exodus story. In the Book of Kings, after Solomon’s death the United Kingdom splits in Israel and Judah. Rehoboam rules in the Southern Kingdom, Jeroboam rules in the north. A major reason why the Northern tribes separate from Judah is due to the oppressive policies of Solomon, which Rehoboam does nothing to alleviate.
From looking at various notes, I begun to think, could it be the story of the Exodus, could have been originally composed in the Northern Kingdom. The Pharaoh of Egypt = Rehoboam, Moses = Jeroboam – so in its original form it may have been a subversive work. Rehoboam, during Solomon’s reign fled to Egypt, and after his death he comes to confront Rehoboam. So just as Moses had to flee Pharaoh, Rehoboam had to flee from the wrath of Solomon. After Solomon dies, he comes back to confront the new ruler.
Interesting idea…
When I travelled in Israel a couple of years ago, I could not find one Israeli in all my conversations who did not accept the Exodus/invasion of Canaan narrative as a fact of history. Therein lies the foundation of many of our current problems in the Middle East.
I think you were talking to the wrong Israelis. None of the ones I know very well think it actually happened.
Apparently, according to Jewish rabbinical tradition, most Israelites did not leave so maybe there was more like 50-100 million Israelite slaves in Egypt. That makes it all the more understandable that they have left no trace.
I’m not familiar with that tradition. But, uh, 100 million Israelite slaves in Egypt?? Wow. I wonder what they imagine the population of Egypt was then! (Or even the world….)
> from my forthcoming book on the Bible
I assume this isn’t Heaven and Hell. Tell us more!
Ah, sorry. The post came from before when I had written my book The Bible: A Historical and Literary Introduction.
All other information in this thread non-withstanding, consider this: 2-3 million people and associated livestock almost could have linked arm and arm and stretched to where they had to go, but they wandered lost for decades. (Leaving no trace mind you). They followed a G~d who brought fantastic plagues on to Egypt, led them through a hostile wilderness by being ‘a pillar of fire by night and a column of smoke by day’. Caused a body of water to supernaturally part allowing Israel to cross and then drowning all of her pursuing enemies. Fed them with Manna from heaven to sustain them. After witnessing all of this G~d’s power and glory what does Israel do? Moses is up on the mountain for a month and they say “The hell with this,forget about that G~d, let’s make a cow out of gold so we have something to worship”. Exodus is a myth, a story in a religion structure. No less and certainly no more.
Speaking of myths and their debunking Freud’s “Moses and Monotheism'”
posits Moses as a follower of Aknaten(sic?), the monotheistic pharaoh c 1300bce… Phillip Glass’ opera Aknaten will be satellite transmitted from the stage of the Met on Nov 23? I’ve seen it – its worth seeing and btw, the libretto (partly in Akadian?) was by shalom Goldman (Duke)- with reference to psalm 104 that is heard in the opera in hebrew…which itself may echo an extant poem by the pharaoh…
I agree with the general theses of both Dever and Finkelstein — at best there were a few minor exoduses that got mythologized into what we see on the screen with Charlton Heston. But I have to admit, the myth is so engrained in our collective unconscious that it is probably more “True” than the historical reality. It’s one of those things that you can’t un-see 😉
I’ve concluded that the Exodus story was highly fantasized as a face-saving tale for the Jewish slaves who’d been ousted from Egypt due to their diseases and filth. What better than to declare they were “God’s chosen people”?
It is related by the historian Choeremon, that, at one time, the land of Egypt was infested with disease, and through the advice of the sacred scribe Phritiphantes, the king caused the infected people (who were none other than the brick-making slaves, known as the children of Israel), to be collected, and driven out of the coun try*
Lysimachiis relates that :
” A. filthy disease broke out in Egypt, and the Oracle of A.mmon, being con sulted on the occasion, commanded the king to purify the land by driving out the Jews (who were infected with leprosy, &c.), a race of men who were hateful to the Gods.” 9 The whole multitude of the people were accordingly collected and driven
out into the wilderness.”
Diodorus Siculus* referring to this event, says :
“In ancient times Egypt was afflicted with a great plague, which was attributed to the anger of God, on account of the multitude of foreigners in Egypt: by whom the rites of the native religion were neglected. The Egyptians accord
ingly drove them out. The most noble of them went under Cadmus and Danaus to Greece, but the greater number followed Moses, a wise and valiant leader, to
Palestine.”
The above information gleaned from “Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions:…” by Thomas Doan (full text available online).
On the dating of the “Exodus”, is it relevant to consider 1 Kings 6:1 saying (paraphrased) that in the 480th year after the sons of Israel came out of the land of Egypt in the 4th year of Solomon’s reign in the month of Ziv? Of course one would need to ascertain the time of Solomon’s reign. Perhaps using the King’s list? Some believe Solomon reigned c 970-931.
Yup, that’s one of the standard lines scholars have long taken. But, of course, 1 Kings was probably guessing….
The archaeological discovery of a stele indicating Egypt conquered various other nations, including the land of Israel supports they were slaves. But this is entirely inconsistent w the biblical tale of Joseph Running the country. Another biblical fabrication to make the Jews believe they are a chosen and special people.
Not exactly on topic – but not too far away. The Egyptians, by living by the Red Sea, the Mediterranean Sea, and the River Nile, were fully adept at navigating over water. They had lots of boats. At whatever point in the Red Sea that wasn’t parted, or when it came back together, it could have easily been sailed.
One implausibility is that Israelites had 600,000 men… as you say, armies of antiquity could field about 20,000… couldn’t they just conquer Egypt? Why go anywhere?
Also, are we to assume that the Egyptian commander, after having seen a large body of water split in two to reveal dry earth where the Israelites walked on, would rationally choose to pursue them through this when anyone with a brain would realize that a person/God with the power to do so can also undo it? It’s like the story forgot that the “baddies” also have brains.
Bart Ehrman:
Exodus from a Historical Perspective
It has proved difficult for biblical scholars to establish when these events are to have taken place. The most common dating of the exodus event places it around 1250 BCE, for three reasons. … The exodus tradition was hugely important, as it became a kind of “founding legend” for the nation of Israel. It does not appear to be actual history.
Steefen:
QUESTION:
What do you and other biblical scholars say about Artapanus, the ancient historian, who wrote about Moses, even giving the name of his pharaoh-stepfather?
I am referencing Praeparatio Evangelica, Book 9, Chapter 27 by Eusebius.
~ ~ ~
And Artapanus says, in his book Concerning the Jews…
…Palmanothes succeeded to the sovereignty.
This king behaved badly to the Jews; and first, he built Kessa, and founded the temple therein, and then built the temple in Heliopolis.
He begat a daughter, Merris, whom he betrothed to a certain Chenephres [Kha-nefer-re, Khenophres in Greek: Sobekhotep IV], king of the regions above Memphis [but below the region of the Delta where Merris lived] (for there were at that time many kings in Egypt); and she being barren took a suppositious [based on assumption rather than fact] child from one of the Jews, and called him Mouses (Moses)…
~ ~ ~
Kha-nefer-re was the throne name for Sobek-hotep IV, circa 1535 BCE, not a pharaoh of the 18th or 19th Dynasty, circa 1250 BCE.
What do you and other biblical scholars say about Artapanus, the ancient historian, who wrote about Moses, even giving the name of his pharaoh-stepfather? (Maybe this is why the Bible does not name pharaoh–they knew, as Artapanus knew, it was not Ramesses the Great and an Exodus from building Pi-Ramesses.)
Yes, Eusebius says this — but remember, Eusebius is a *Christian* trying to verify the historicity of his tradition. Biblical scholars point out that we don’t have any evidence that in fact Atapanus said any such thing.
Bart Ehrman:
Exodus from a Historical Perspective
It has proved difficult for biblical scholars to establish when these events are to have taken place. The most common dating of the exodus event places it around 1250 BCE, for three reasons. … The exodus tradition was hugely important, as it became a kind of “founding legend” for the nation of Israel. It does not appear to be actual history.
Steefen:
QUESTION:
What do you and other biblical scholars say about Artapanus, the ancient historian, who wrote about Moses, even giving the name of his pharaoh-stepfather?
I am referencing Praeparatio Evangelica, Book 9, Chapter 27 by Eusebius.
~ ~ ~
And Artapanus says, in his book Concerning the Jews…
…Palmanothes succeeded to the sovereignty.
This king behaved badly to the Jews; and first, he built Kessa, and founded the temple therein, and then built the temple in Heliopolis.
He begat a daughter, Merris, whom he betrothed to a certain Chenephres [Kha-nefer-re, Khenophres in Greek: Sobekhotep IV], king of the regions above Memphis [but below the region of the Delta where Merris lived] (for there were at that time many kings in Egypt); and she being barren took a suppositious [based on assumption rather than fact] child from one of the Jews, and called him Mouses (Moses)…
~ ~ ~
Kha-nefer-re was the throne name for Sobek-hotep IV, circa 1535 BCE, not a pharaoh of the 18th or 19th Dynasty, circa 1250 BCE.
What do you and other biblical scholars say about Artapanus, the ancient historian, who wrote about Moses, even giving the name of his pharaoh-stepfather? (Maybe this is why the Bible does not name pharaoh–they knew, as Artapanus knew, it was not Ramesses the Great and an Exodus from building Pi-Ramesses.)
At least a lot of Jews claim that the Hebrew bible was written as a story of the soul,,,a story of a soul’s descend, and accend back to it’s origin. The spiritual tradition you find in Kabbalah, which flourished and became very popular 1000 years ago and on, seems to correspond to such a view. This tradition and theories are claimed to originate to the beginning (even Abraham) and are an integral part of the Hebrew Bible. They (many orthodox jews) claim the Hebrew bible was based on this story, or that this is the origin of the Whole Hebrew Bible, even the language in itself. For them, the exodus from Egypt is at least a symbolic story of the souls way out of boundary (Egypt) into Y-Sh-r El (Israel) “Direct – God” or “Direct to God” which they claim is a part of this fragmented spirit who need to return to its origin after batteling the 613 desires who needs to be spiritualized (laws).
Who knows,,,but if it is correct that this was/is an integral part of the judaism (which the gentiles never understood, since they all had tendensies to understand everything in a “face value”), then the Exodus story could have been meant to tell about a spiritual journey out of boundary
Kjell Tidslevold
Listening to a new youtube vlog-podcast today (Archaeological Proof of the Exodus? A Jewish Perspective) I realized that MAYBE the Jews living in captivity in Egypt shouldn’t be considered slaves but a `conquered and enslaved people`. It seems that the Jews kept their culture; families weren’t separated nor it seems were individuals put on the block and sold. I had a narrower concept and thought of slaves as living in circumstances like Rome and the US south but I don’t think that is what the Jews experienced in Egypt. Without conscious consideration, it could be easy to misunderstand the circumstances of the Jews in Egypt.