I am publishing a series of guest posts that have been generously contributed to the blog in honor of our ten-year anniversary. Each post is written by a recognized expert in our field who has previously made guest posts for us. This one comes from Jason Staples, my erstwhile PhD student who now teaches at North Carolina State and whose (long!) dissertation has turned into TWO separate monographs, the first already published by Cambridge University Press (The Idea of Israel in Second Temple Judaism), and the other now forthcoming from Cambridge (focusing on Paul).
Here, after some much-appreciated kind words, Jason deals with an unusually important and little-understood topic, of ultimate relevance to us all!
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Thanks to multiple best-selling books, Bart is one of the few widely recognized names in the field of biblical studies, and when people learn I did my training under his guidance, I invariably get asked, “so, what was that like?” Many of the more conservative-leaning Christians are surprised when I tell them the truth: it would be difficult to find anyone better to work with than Bart. He’s not interested in making clones of himself; he really cares about his students and wants them to become the best scholars and versions of themselves that they can be. He’s consistent, detailed, and tailors his approach to each student. With me, he gave me lots of room to run and only periodically pulled on the reins with a “whoa!” And unlike many especially prolific scholars, Bart invests heavily in his students, always making time whenever it’s needed and responding swiftly with detailed comments on drafts or any other needs.
In many respects, this blog has revealed those aspects of Bart more than his other public work. Not many have the stamina, consistency, or intellectual curiosity needed to maintain a regular blog for a decade—let alone the ability to write so well that tens of thousands actually want to read it! But even beyond that, the fact that he’s poured all that energy into something that doesn’t make him a dime shows who he really is. Bravo, Bart, for consistently investing your time to better the lives of others, and for raising over $1.5 million for charities over the past decade. And thanks.
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Did Paul believe God creates some people specifically to burn in hell for all eternity? For many Christians, the answer is a definitive “yes.” One of the most important passages in this discussion is the potter/clay analogy in Romans 9, where Paul addresses the charge that because God chooses to show mercy to some and not others, God is unjust to find fault with those he did not choose. The passage comes as part of a larger discussion about who inherits Abraham’s blessing. Paul points out that although Abraham fathered more than one child, only Isaac was chosen as the heir. The same was then true of Jacob (chosen) and Esau (not chosen). It is at this point that Paul acknowledges the potential objection, “What then, there is no injustice with God, is there?” (Rom 9:14)
His argument against this conclusion takes a peculiar direction, however, as he appeals to God’s statement to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion” (9:15). This is a quotation of Exodus 33:19, a statement in the aftermath of the infamous golden calf incident in which Israel managed to violate the covenant while the covenant was being delivered to Moses on Mount Sinai. Paul pairs this statement of God’s character with another quotation of Exodus, in which Pharaoh is told that God had raised him up “in order to demonstrate my power in you, and so that my name might be proclaimed throughout the earth” (9:17, quoting Exod 9:16), concluding, “so then, he has mercy on whom he wishes, and he hardens whom he wishes” (9:18).
This line of argumentation is hardly reassuring to those concerned about the implications of God arbitrarily choosing to save some and condemn others, and Paul anticipates another objection: “Why then does he still find fault? For who has resisted his will?” (9:19). This is the question that leads to the potter/clay metaphor, typically translated something like this:
On the contrary, who are you, O human, who answers back to God? The molded thing will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and make his power known, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory…”
This response has frequently been read not as a rebuttal of the accusation that God is arbitrary but rather as a defense of God’s right to arbitrary choice. In this reading (reflected in the typical English translation above), rather than challenging the idea that God is unjust because he arbitrarily chooses who to save and who to condemn, the argument is that such standards of justice and injustice do not apply to God, who has the sovereign right to declare whatever he chooses to be justice. Since God is the potter, he has the right to choose to make clay vessels simply to smash them to show his power over them.
Such logic, however, would be surprising given Paul’s emphasis on God’s just judgment in Romans 2, where he argues that God “will render to each one in keeping with what they have done” (2:6), “for God does not show favoritism” (2:11). Although the possibility that Paul was sometimes self-contradictory cannot be ruled out, in this case the fault lies with modern interpreters, who have not adequately followed the logic of Paul’s argument in Romans 9. (Note: If you’re interested in the more technical details of this discussion, I encourage you to read the fuller explanation in my recent article with Harvard Theological Review, “Vessels of Wrath and God’s Pathos: Potter/Clay Imagery in Rom 9:20–23.” It’s open-access and available for download by all!)
The problem is that modern interpreters have assumed that Paul cites the pottery metaphor to illustrate God’s absolute sovereignty and power over humanity (represented by inanimate clay). But if this is what Paul meant, it is strange that he would have chosen clay as his example because even today clay has a reputation for being especially difficult to work with. Modern master potters, for example, regularly talk about how clay “has a mind of its own.” In other words, rather than representing a creative process involving imposing one’s will on an inanimate object, working with clay is an art form that requires a dynamic process of planning and improvisation. And thanks to the force generated by the spinning of the wheel, the clay feels as though it’s “pushing back” against the shaping hand of the potter, making it an especially suitable metaphor for the human response to the divine hand.
All this is helpful background for the metaphor, but is there any evidence that Paul was thinking along these lines? Yes! First of all, Paul’s appeal to God’s “patience” is peculiar—what would it mean to “patiently endure” a clay pot? But in the context of referring to shaping unformed clay, the concept of patience does make sense, as patience by definition refers to situations in which one is not getting exactly what one wants.
Secondly, Paul is not inventing this metaphor from thin air; he’s borrowing an analogy widely used in the Hebrew Bible and early Jewish literature. The longest and most famous of these is found in Jeremiah 18, where God tells the prophet to go watch a potter at work in order to receive a prophetic word. Jeremiah then observes the clay become misshapen in the potter’s hands, at which point the potter balled it up again and started over again, making it into something else. At that point, God says, “can I not deal with you in the same way as the potter,” declaring that God’s decisions are not unilateral but change based on human responsiveness.
Thirdly, it turns out that the specific language Paul employs in this passage does not mean what the above English quotation says. In brief, instead of “endure,” the word Paul uses is better understood as referring to the process of “producing” the vessel. And where it is often translated “prepared for destruction,” the word rendered “prepared” instead means something closer to “reshaped.” Finally, “for destruction” does not necessarily mean the destruction of the vessel but can also refer to the creation of a destructive vessel—something used for destruction of other things. Putting that all together, the passage is better rendered as follows:
Or does the potter not have a right over the clay to make from the same lump a vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable? And if God produced with much patience vessels of wrath reshaped for destruction…
This reading presents a very different picture of God. Rather than arguing that God does indeed create people for the purpose of their own eternal damnation, Paul provides a surprising answer to the question “who has resisted his will?” Far from presenting God as impassive and irresistible, Paul suggests that humanity has regularly and flagrantly resisted God, who nevertheless patiently integrates human responses into the process, reshaping stubborn clay to produce the best possible outcome, at which point the clay is “hardened” (Rom 9:18).
By appealing to the potter/clay metaphor, Paul therefore argues for a dynamic divine/human relationship and explains how God’s sovereign choice does not obviate human responsibility or contradict God’s justice as established earlier in Romans. In the process, Paul presents a God of pathos, a God who can be impacted by humanity, a God who suffers—a God whose nature and character corresponds to the suffering and crucified messiah Paul proclaims as Lord.
Very good. I first learned of the Romans 9 / Jeremiah 18 correlation from J Patterson Smyth, an Anglican Priest in Canada at the turn of the 20th century. I think Paul had the passage in mind when he wrote in Romans. The OT passage goes on to exemplify what the potter analogy means by giving two examples:
1. If God wanted to punish a nation, but the nation turned from the wrong God saw, he would change his course.
2. If God wanted to bless a nation, but the nation started doing evil in his sight, he would change his course.
The passage implies that God’s original intent would be altered in response to the actions of the nations, as opposed to God forcing the actions of the nations in order to justify his original intent.
I think that adds even more wait to your explanation, or should, God willing.
I wonder if this is how Paul would have thought of the Flood story in Genesis – as a “balling up” and reshaping of humanity after a botched creation attempt?
I think that’s basically right. That’s the idea of judgment as Jeremiah 18 puts it forward.
I’m surprised to see talk of people being made to “burn in hell for all eternity” from a student of Bart, since Bart argued (forcefully, it seemed to me anyway) in Heaven and Hell that the idea of eternal torture in an otherworldly spirit realm was not what Jesus, Paul, and the gospel authors were talking about when they used the word “gehenna.” Jason, do you disagree with Bart’s analysis on this one?
The point of the headline is to engage with a common modern interpretation, not to advocate it.
Excellent reply. Your headline IS the shocking position that many professing Christians seem to be happy to adopt – & to declare that it is reflective of the god of the Bible. Just total nonsense!!
Most interesting. However, I’m not sure the Exodus 33 reference fits. In the incident of the golden calf it says that about 3000 people were killed for their idolatry, yet Moses’ own brother Aaron who fashioned the golden calf not only stays alive but gets promoted to high priest. Sure sounds like favoritism, not justice! Paul reminds me of modern apologists who try too hard to explain away difficult passages.
That fact is part of the trajectory within the Torah that suggests the Israelite priesthood is compromised from the start. I don’t think that’s a problem Paul felt needed to be explained away, as it works well within his larger paradigm about the function of Torah in light of Israel’s (and Israel’s priests’) disobedience.
Speaking of the golden calf, I have seen a few videos by a certain heterodox Jewish rabbi who has some unconventional interpretations of that, as well as many other things. I don’t want to name names right now, but to emphasise the forest rather than the tree it makes me conscious of how little I know about how to contextualise heterodox thinking in Judaism. I’ve never asked about that on the blog because I feel it’s a little outside Bart’s domain of expertise, but it interests me.
Hi Jason Staples, I appreciate seeing you pointing out Paul’s context set in Romans 2 while interpreting Romans 9. I wonder. Do you participate in the Calvinism versus Arminianism debate? And if you do, I’m sure that you side with or lean toward Arminianism 🙂
I don’t really participate in those debates all that much, partly because I think both Calvin and Arminius start from flawed foundations. In any case, I thank God every day that I was not predestined to be a Calvinist.
Interesting, if you ever decide to write a paper or chapter on the flawed foundations of both Calvinism and Arminianism, then I will read it. Or did you already write one on this?
I haven’t written one yet, and I’m not sure I will. It’s a bit outside my wheelhouse at this point, which is working more with texts written long before Calvin or Arminius lived.
Fair enough. Anyway, I see some interesting article abstracts of yours on your website. If I cannot access them online through my libraries when I plan to read some of them, I might reach out to you by email for preprints, if that is okay.
Of course!
Why do you think Calvinism is a minority position in mainstream Christianity today?
Mostly because Calvin was a relative latecomer in the history of Christianity and advocated for theological readings at odds with what had been normative in other forms of Christianity for centuries.
That makes sense. Thanks for your reply.
“In any case, I thank God every day that I was not predestined to be a Calvinist.”
That has to be the single funniest line ever written on this blog.
It’s chilling to hear Calvinists claim that God deliberately created people in order to damn them, all done to demonstrate his “glory”. What I’ve never understood is why people ascribe characteristics to God that would be insufferable in a human being. Obsessing about your “glory” might be cutting edge thinking among Ancient Near Eastern potentates but could there be a more obnoxious personality? And having marveled over the recent Webb Telescope Deep Field image it’s very hard to imagine that Yahweh as described in the Bible had anything to do with that!
Hey Prof,
There’s this Catholic professors who tells me that faith in God should not just be based on scriptures.
He calls it a Protestant problem authored by Luther.
To him, the scriptures are secondary to faith in God and hence scriptures don’t have to be as historical reliable and accurate as science.
To me, this is frustrating as it appears like shifting goal posts and ensuring that faith cannot be questioned and will always be right.
Second, how would a God of the universe narrow down his interests in the world, just a few (geological) years ago, to one person (Abraham) and essentially one tribe, the Jews, and in the process relegate all others to ‘hell’?
Is this not an extreme case of tunnel vision for humanity to suffer?
What do you think?
As for the first question, historically speaking, the Bible is the product of tradition and has authority within the church because of traditional agreement about its function (the Bible itself doesn’t say anything about the Bible). And the Bible does not interpret itself; it is interpreted within the parameters of hermeneutical traditions agreed upon by the community treating the Bible as canonical or foundational. So in those respects, the Catholic professor is on firm ground and is merely stating the historical and traditional facts.
As for the second question, I find it difficult enough to fathom that given all the galaxies of stars and planets we’ve found, we’ve yet to find another planet with life or even the conditions for life. Why life seems to be narrowed to this tiny pebble in the ocean of this corner of the cosmos is beyond me, but it seems that the more we learn about everywhere else in the cosmos, the more justified human “tunnel vision” seems to be.
Sort of off-topic, but regarding the universe, we’ve barely begun to explore our own solar system, so I don’t think we can come to any conclusions yet about what else is out there. As one example, there are several moons of Jupiter and Saturn that appear to have subsurface oceans that remain a project for future exploration. We’re exploring Mars as we speak in places where liquid water once flowed, and preparing subsurface soil samples for future laboratory analysis on Earth. One thing we know about life on Earth is that it’s tenacious and finds ways to adapt to the most extreme conditions. All that seems to be required is liquid water and a source of energy. We’re babies when it comes to understanding the cosmos.
Absolutely right. Our knowledge of our own planet is limited enough, let alone the rest of the cosmos. There may well be (or have been) life in many other locations; we just haven’t found any evidence of such so far.
Hopefully in our lifetimes!
Thanks, Jason, for your exposition on Romans 9. That your God had to work at creating these clay vessels and that he fully expected to change his mind depending on how they turned out reflects early pre-Israelite concepts but contradicts the omnipotent and unchanging Christian God taught to us today. Would you agree?
You wrote: ” I find it difficult enough to fathom that given all the galaxies of stars and planets we’ve found, we’ve yet to find another planet with life or even the conditions for life. Why life seems to be narrowed to this tiny pebble in the ocean of this corner of the cosmos is beyond me…”
You do realize that we’ve “found” lots of galaxies and planets but haven’t yet the ability to prove or dispute that all but one of them harbor life. And there are countless others we haven’t examined at all. To conclude that “life seems to be narrowed to this tiny pebble in the ocean of this corner of the cosmos” is , shall I say, a bit premature.
Again, I value your explanation of your views and look forward to hearing more of them.
Unrelated topic but I would appreciate your expertise on Elizabeth Schrader’s article (HTR 2016): “Was Martha of Bethany Added to the Fourth Gospel in the Second Century?”
She writes: “I believe the changes around Martha in P66 cannot simply be dismissed as scribal mechanical errors, because there are so many strange variants around Martha throughout the text transmission of the Fourth Gospel, as well as in patristic quotations and ancient extracanonical texts. I believe we can still see a literary prehistory reflected in P66, giving us a window into a predecessor circulating text form with only Mary and Lazarus present, now overlaid with secondary interpolations of the figure of Martha. It seems likely that there was an early harmonization of the Johannine Lazarus story to the Lukan story of Mary and Martha.” She also writes: “I believe there is a strong possibility that this change was made in order to hamper the text’s subtle identification of Mary of Bethany with Mary Magdalene, and perhaps in particular to ensure that John 11:27’s crucial christological confession would not be on her lips.”
Juicy stuff to say the least. Thoughts?
I haven’t gone through the manuscript evidence on my own sufficiently enough to speak conclusively on the matter, but I think Libbie has made a compelling case that deserves significant attention.
Great post. Very fascinating.
Thanks for posting.
If I understand you correctly, you raise a bigger question with your interpretation of the scripture, which previously had a very tidy logic, albeit as you say flawed.
The tidy logic is that God creates one vessel for glory in heaven and another for destruction: eternal damnation in hell. While this may seems unjust, particularly f you happen to be the vessel destined for destruction, God does not answer to humanity’s perspective on justice and can act as arbitrary as He chooses. And that’s the way it is.
As I understand your interpretation, Paul does not believe God does this. Rather, God creates a vessel for the “destruction of other things,” as part of God’s divine plan that serves some end of justice.
Thus, the bigger question now becomes, what vessels did God create for destruction and for the destruction of what or whom? Caiaphas? Judas? Pontius Pilate?
I don’t have these ideas that you started your post with in my mind. I have no problem suspecting the ancient Hebrews were copying ideas (metaphors) from the ancient Egyptian mythology, such as the “Potter god” Khnum. He was an ancient Egyptian “Potter god” known to shape humans and their “Ka” at conception from clay.
Well, so these stories in the Hebrew Bible using the same metaphors (potter and clay) as for example Jeremiah 18, 1-2., and also in Isiah 64,8 which clearly says that God is the “Potter” and we are the “Clay”
Even the Apostles Acts 7:22 claims that Moses was learned in Egyptian wisdom where this metaphor would be found.
What I find important to focus on is that the “house” of Potters mentioned in Jeremia. Here God ask us to go down to his “house” and in this “house” God will give us the message. This house, is according to 1.st Corinthians 3-16 our own body. The allmighty God’s own spirit (is it possible to be exchalted more!!!) dwells in this house, and it is even Gods tempel!.
CONTINUE
CONTUNUE
So when we go down to Gods (“Potter” ) house/tempel which is our bodies, we see Him working. He is a “potter” which means one who moulds which litteraly means making into a form, a determination of a form or resolution. That is what God does, he works (Jeremia) within us (1 Cor 3-16), and in his house we will get our message.
So, within God’s house/temple where God’s spirit dwells (1 Cor. 3:16), He (the potter), works,,,with the clay (our own self, our own consciousness?). I wouldn’t be surprised if Paul had these views in mind when he wrote what you mention.
It is all from within, and it is from within God dwells and has His tempel. And it is from within God are working. And it is from within we have to go down to hear the message.
It is all from within!
(thanks for a good post)
It’s a wonder that any human being who professes to believe that God is good, that God is love, could ever accept the view here being argued against.
For “honorable and “dishonorable” the NRSV has “special use” and “ordinary use”. One can scarcely imagine that Paul thinks any of God’s creation is “dishonorable” (that is: shameful and immoral) by design.
You connect the “hardening” of verse 18 to the clay analogy, but given the proximity of the Exodus 9:16 quote, no reader could fail to connect it to the refrain in the Exodus story whereby God hardens Pharoah’s heart.
The phrase “vessels of wrath reshaped for destruction” needs to be teased apart some more. Whose wrath? I think that in your interpretation it refers to human wrath — people who become wrathful and thus behave destructively — but I don’t think anyone seeing your rendering, without the rest of the blog post, would understand that. Worded as it is, the wrath appears integral to what is produced, and to precede the reshaping. Further, what sense does your interpretation make of “God, desiring to show his wrath”?
I think “wrath” in the passage is God’s wrath. The “hardening” connects with both the Pharaoh and potter/clay passages and helps bridge them.
Dr. Ehrman thinks the topic is “of ultimate relevance to us all!” but it’s not. Paul’s intended audience here were 1st century Jews and non-Jewish descendants of the tribes of Israel who were dispersed among the nations, some referred to as ‘gentiles’ because they had stopped being Torah observant and had stopped practicing circumcision.
Staples erroneously thinks Paul believed God not having favoritism and rendering to each one in keeping with what they have done” (2:6) was somehow relevant to all humanity. However, the context was between different groups within all Israel.. Jews and their non-Jewish brethren from the northern tribes. That’s who God was impartial with. Non-Israelites weren’t in view.
The potter/clay motif comes from the old testament and had an exclusively Israelite application to Paul. Israel was the clay (Is 64:8). Romans 9 is about a believing remnant (of Israel). A remnant is a portion of an already existing people group. Paul goes on (Rom 9:23-25) to quote from Hosea 1:9-10, indicating again that the application was to unfaithful Israelites.
Like most scholars, both Ehrman and Staples make the same error as their predecessors of trying to include all humanity within an exclusively Israelite context.
Nonsense. Just for one bit of counterevidence, the potter/clay metaphor is explicitly applied to non-Israelite nations in Jer 18.
Prof. Staples, are you referring to Jer 18:6
(Jer 18:6 ESV) “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
or some other verse in Jeremiah that explicitly shows that non-Israelites were the clay in a potter/clay motif?
You might want to read the next four verses, which speak more generally, such as “I might speak about a nation or a kingdom to build it up or plant it” (18:9). Israel is one of those nations to which this applies.
Prof. Staples, the verses following Jeremiah 18:6 only indicate that from the authors perspective, Israel’s god was able to destroy or to relent from destroying other nations as easily as it could Israel. There is absolutely nothing explicit or implied in those verses showing that those nations were ever considered to be clay in a potter/clay motif extending into the New Testament era. However, Jeremiah 18:6 is explicitly describing Israel as the clay.
Departing from what is explicit and appealing to assumptions read into the text as a way of supporting an invented doctrine of Paul believing that pagans transitioning into Israelites is the ancient equivalent to todays transgender nonsense, where anyone can just assume any identity they want in order to fit into whatever worldview they want. It’s not scholarly. It’s religious. It’s part of why scholars have been making mistakes about the New Testament for centuries. Ever since genuine Christianity ended in the first century along with the need for the gospel, people have been reading themselves into the biblical redemptive narrative and pretending to be someone they are not. It’s been a circus of error ever since.
I’ll chime in to the extent of the “ultimate relevance to us all.” I’m believe that literature (all of it) bears “ultimate relevance to us all.” This includes everything from the Epic of Gilgamesh to Dog Man: Mothering Heights. Because all literature tells us something about our cultural values as a race. And recognizing universal themes that transcend time and culture not only helps understand particular literature in its time and place, it gives us perspective on the grand scheme of literature.
IMHO, compartmentalization of literature as only having relevance to its narrow position in history, is almost as bad as not knowing the history of literature at all.
Unrelated to the opening post but still interesting is the fact that Dr. Ehrman believes there were no twelve tribes of Israel in the first century (no house of Israel), while his student, Prof. Staples, affirms they existed. In response to a recent question of mine pertaining to audience relevance of New Testament letters, Dr. Ehrman said…”there hadn’t been twelve tribes of Israel for over 800 years (since the Assyrians wiped out the northern kingdom in 721 BCE).”
However, Prof. Staples has said “Paul’s “mystery” is that faithful Gentiles (those with “the law written on their hearts”; see Rom 2:14–15) are the returning remnant of the house of Israel, united with the faithful from the house of Judah (cf. the “inward Jews” of Rom 2:28–29).”
(SOURCE: Journal of Biblical Literature , no. 2 (2011): 371-390. Staples, “What Do Gentiles Have to Do with ‘All Israel’. A Fresh Look at Romans 11:25-27.”)
Perhaps these two scholars can sort this out in a separate post sometime.
Bart’s right; although there were small remnants of a few of the northern tribes (Ephraim and Manasseh in particular), but there’s no evidence of several of the twelve tribes by that period. You’re just misreading my article, which points out that several tribes had ceased to exist as distinct entities due to intermarrying with the other nations among which they were scattered centuries earlier. But Paul, understanding that fact, argued that God was miraculously restoring the descendants of those tribes by transforming non-Israelites (among whom those Israelites had been intermingled) into Israelites by the work of the spirit granted by Jesus.
Prof. Staples, The tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel were cursed and in 721 BC and they were deported to Assyria. The curse was perpetual and carried on through their children.
(Deut 28:45-46) “Moreover all these CURSES shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and ON YOUR DESCENDANTS FOREVER.”
The tribes of the northern kingdom needed salvation from the curse of the law, to be gathered before the time of the end and raised up (resurrected) together with their Jewish brethren back to a restored covenant relationship with their god before the end of the age. That’s what the New Testament is all about. At the end of the story, we see all twelve tribes sealed, saved, redeemed and gathered together before the throne (Rev 7). Non-Israelites aren’t in view because they weren’t part of the story.
The curse according to 2 Kings 17 was that because they behaved like the other nations, they would become what they imitated. Having pursued emptiness, they would become empty. The judgment is that they would become effectively gentilized—mixed together and integrated within the other nations. That’s how Paul understands it, and it’s why he thought Israel’s restoration required the transformation of gentiles into Israelites.
Prof. Staples, diverting to 2 Kings 17 doesn’t change the fact that the curse of Deut 28:45-46 was eternal for Israel’s physical descendants. And the curse was not that they would become what they imitated. Such nonsense! Rather, from beginning of the bible to its end, the curse for violating the Law was death, which was a separation from covenant relationship. Life was a covenant relationship between Israelites and their god. Death was the curse of the law, which only Israel had and were under. Pagan nations didn’t know, didn’t have and weren’t under Israel’s Law. Only those who were under the curse of the Law needed ‘eternal life’, a restoration of Israel’s covenant relationship.
The imagery of physical death and physical resurrection were only meant to convey a deeper, covenantal reality in the ancient Israelite mind. Death, being dead, going down to the pit (or the grave) followed by resurrection, being born again, being raised to life…all were symbols of their covenant relationship being severed, then restored. Non-Israelites weren’t under the Law, weren’t in a covenantal dead condition and didn’t need life, salvation, redemption and restoration.
Josephus affirmed that the ten tribes existed. He wrote “the TEN TRIBES are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude and NOT TO BE ESTIMATED IN NUMBERS.” (Josephus, Flavius. Antiquites. p. 11:133.)
Additionally, there is no scripture anywhere that supports the idea that Paul believed God miraculously transformed pagans into Israelites. Rather, Paul believed that anyone who believed the gospel was a descendant of the tribes of Israel. Paul said “If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed” (Gal 3:29). What kind of seed was that? According to Gen 15:4-5, a physical seed…physical descendants of Abraham who were of faith. The gospel went out to the nations because that’s where paganized descendants of the tribes of Israel had been dispersed to.
Recall that Rom 9 is about the remnant. A remnant is part of a pre-existing group of people, in this case, a remnant of Israel, not some group outside of Israel that miraculously became Israelites. According to the scriptures, Paul, Peter and John believed the twelve tribes existed. Understanding Christianity comes from understanding the scriptures from their proper Israelite context, not the assumptions of post-AD70 ‘scholars’ who are affected by presentism.
1) Josephus says this because he believes they *must* exist somewhere out there. He has no empirical evidence of their presence, nor does he present anything approximating that. He simply believes that since God promised Israel would be restored, they must still be out there somewhere. Similar ideas appear in Tobit, 4 Ezra, etc.
2) Paul explicitly argues that Abraham’s seed is not reckoned “according to the flesh”—that is, it is not about “physical seed” but about pneumatic seed “according to fidelity.” Those who have received the spirit of the messiah thereby become Israelites through this pneumatic transformation; they are not merely declared to be Israelites who had forgotten their descent.
Prof. Staples, Josephus didn’t say they “must exist somewhere out there”. He was explicit that they were multitudinous and he provided their exact location. But even if Josephus was lying, characters within the NT redemptive narrative (or their authors) believed that people from all twelve tribes existed at that time and the NT redemptive narrative involves them and concludes with them. This of course means that the ‘gentiles’ (GK ethnos) were paganized Israelites, not non-Israelites.
In all of bible scripture, the term ‘seed’ was always associated with physical descendancy. There was no ‘spiritual seed’ or ‘pneumatic seed’. The seed of Abraham was established very early on as being Abraham’s physical descendants back in Gen 15:4-5. When Paul quotes from the old testament, he uses terms the way they were used at that time because he had the same people in mind…Israelites.
Explaining the text from the perspective of its authors and characters is the job of a bible scholar. Inventing concepts that are not found anywhere in scripture… like your hypothesis of Paul believing that pagans transformed into Israelites so that all Israel would be saved….is not bible scholarship. It’s just inventing a fairytale to explain another fairytale.
Correction: This of course means that the ‘gentiles’ (GK ethnos) WHO NEEDED SALVATION AND REDEMPTION were paganized Israelites, not non-Israelites.
What exactly do you mean by “paganized Israelites”? You keep using that term, but you haven’t established what it means. Are you suggesting that these people are racially Israelites in some way? As in, they are people descended from Israelite parents who themselves were born to Israelite parents, etc. but nevertheless uncircumcised and worshiping gentile gods, etc., while still maintaining endogamy and only marrying other Israelites for all those centuries? Is that what you’re imagining here?
Prof. Staples, no. By ‘paganized Israelites” I mean unfaithful Jews, Hellenized Jews and non-Jewish descendants of the tribes of Israel who were dispersed among various nations before the end of the old covenant religious system and temple community. Whether they really existed in the 1st century or not is irrelevant (mostly because the bible as a whole isn’t a history book). What is relevant is that according to the NT, Paul and other NT authors (or their characters) believed that some of their audiences were those people.
The way to determine who Paul’s intended audiences were is to see what their relationship was to the Law, which only Israel had and was under. In the NT letters, it can be seen that gentiles in Paul’s audiences were guilty of violating the Law at one time or were otherwise under its curse (which was everlasting on all their descendants). This shows that Paul believed they were descendants of the tribes of Israel. Another way is to see who was prophesied to receive ‘promises’ and the Holy Spirit… Again, only Israelites. Another way is to see who Jesus came to redeem and save…Again, only descendants of the tribes of Israel.
Your intuition told you Paul’s ‘gentile’ (ethnos) audience were Israelites but your historical studies didn’t agree. So, you came up with the scripturally baseless assumption that Paul believed that non-Israelites transformed into Israelites by the power of the HS and the silly notion of ‘pneuma seed’. However, inventing such a fairytale hypotheses was unnecessary because the scriptures clearly identify who Paul’s intended audiences were.
Paul called some of his audience in Rome “gentiles” (GK ethnos). In Rom 9:24 he quoted from Hosea 1:9 to associate them with an unfaithful, scattered Israelites. In fact, from beginning to end, Paul’s Roman letter is relevant only to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Paul’s Corinthian audience of gentiles were descended from men who were with Moses in the desert (1 Cor 10:1-3)
Sin was violation of the Law. Only Israel had and was under the Law. Ephesian gentiles were “dead in trespasses and sins” and guilty of being the uncircumcised in the flesh (Eph 2:2,11).
Non-Israelites weren’t required to practice circumcision under Israel’s Law. However, Colossians were “dead in trespasses” and guilty of uncircumcision (Col 2:13).
Paul’s clearly believed his audiences were Jews AND unfaithful, paganized descendants of the tribes of Israel, referred to as ethnos.
Excellent post, Jason. I just have one question regarding the translation of the passage, and that is why isn’t the better reading – as you spelled out – used instead of the one seen in English translations? It would certainly clear up confusion, especially for non-experts like me.
Also, aside from the biblical aspect of the question of God creating someone to roast in hell forever, if God is omniscient it would mean he does know, beforehand, if someone he is about to create will go to hell. God would know if the person created will use his free will to choose whatever path leads to hell. As an omniscient God would know this about the people he creates it seems as though he does create them knowing they’ll go to hell. It would be better, in my opinion, not to create them rather than have them destined to an eternity of suffering. What are your thoughts on that?
I think the main reason English translations have tended toward a different rendering is that the passage hasn’t been well understood. All translation is interpretation, and most English translators have interpreted this passage as a defense of divine arbitrariness.
As for the second thing, I’m not so sure the various biblical portrayals of God presuppose that type of omniscience or foreknowledge. A concept of divine omniscience closer to that found in Boethius’ Consolation of Philosophy, in which God knows all because God stands outside of time and sees all at once, seems to match more closely with Paul’s conception of how God’s knowledge works.
I was always taught we were all born to roast in hell. The only way to avoid it was to be saved. I don’t believe that but that’s what I was taught as a teen in a Baptist church.
This is one of a shortlist of blog posts that I wish to revisit and spend more time thinking about. I’ve carefully read Jason’s linked publication and compiled my own “readers’ digest” version of it, condensing it to a 1100-word essence. I find this a useful technique towards understanding.
Along the way I noticed one or two incidental points where Jason’s speculation strikes me as doubtful. One is the notion (page 212) that it “never enters [translators’] minds that Paul … is actually arguing for a God of pathos who can suffer or be affected by human actions”.
I don’t think any reputable translator could have missed the fact that the NT preaches a responsive God, in contrast to the detached divinity of e.g. the Stoics. Am I missing something?
Another anomaly: on page 213 Jason writes that Paul asks an empirical question: “who has resisted”. In the translations, this question (with the noted modification) is placed on the lips of Paul’s hypothetical adversary. If Jason thinks this is an error, he does not address it explicitely.
These sentences are not included in my 1100 word summary. If I choose to comment on Jason’s central argument, I’ll do so in a separate comment.
1. Good point. But I think Jason is arguing against the very modern idea that God’s involvement is driven by his concern to “suffer with us” or based on some unexpected human actionss. 2. I’m not sure what he thinks about that.
A new day, a new comment.
One reason people misread the passage could be that the parallelism between 22 & 23 misleads them into assuming that the predestination of 23 applies also to 22. That makes me wonder whether there are other instances where overinterpreting a parallelism leads to interpretations the author didn’t intend, and whether any scholar has made collecting such instances an object of study in its own right.
Another thing that may mislead people is the emphasis on God’s choice, which is assumed to imply arbitrariness. But in Jason’s interpretation, God’s choices only seem arbitrary because don’t have all the facts. When God raised Pharoah up “for this very purpose” this wasn’t Pharoah’s destiny from birth, but rather God making use of the person he had already become.
Another interesting aspect of the clay metaphor is that it implies a view of creation as an ongoing process, not an event in the past, to which the way we are shaped by the events of life are integral. That makes me curious about how this idea fits into the broader perspective of Hebrew thought.
I have enough thoughts for a third comment, focusing on the hardening of the clay. To be concluded.
Finale in this trilogy of comments.
From Jason’s article: “hardening … involves permanently fixing the clay in its final shape and is therefore best understood as the final step of judgement, after which there is no repentance availale or reshaping possible.”
This raises the question of why, in Paul’s theology, spiritual hardening should be necessary at all. A pot cannot be used until it is hardened, but the human spirit is at its best while malleable, and hardening a misshapen pot is even more pointless. (Perhaps Paul would change the metaphor at this point, from potter to blacksmith, as pottery is hardened by a willful act of the maker but iron simply by being separated from the furnace). This, of course, is the basis of universalism, that it simply doesn’t make sense that a pot could ever be so hardened that God cannot ultimately reshape it.