(14 votes, average: 4.79 out of 5)
Loading...I have been discussing the wrath of God in the Old Testament and have mentioned a point that here that I want to reemphasize, a point rarely observed by Bible readers (in fact I think I didn’t take much notice of it until recently). In the Bible God sometimes punishes people because they misbehave toward others – kill, exploit, oppress, and so on; other times he punishes them because they do not worship him properly or at all.
This is a difference worth considering because it goes to the heart of a fundamental matter: is God more worried about how people treat one another or about what they believe and do in relationship to him? Is it all about him, or is it all about our fellow humans?
Most Christians, I suppose, would say “both”! But it’s interesting that different parts of the Bible tend to focus on one or the other, sometimes exclusively.
I have talked, e.g., about the prophet Amos, who predicted the coming destruction of Israel because the elite among them had mistreated the poor and marginalized. Amos is one of our earliest prophets of Scripture, from the 8th century BCE. His contemporary was Hosea, whose book is another absolutely terrific and compelling work, another indictment of the people of Israel – but this time not for social and ethical iniquity but for failure to worship God properly. The people of Israel have turned to other gods, and Hosea declares they have “prostituted” themselves and will be severely punished for it.
It’s a powerful condemnation. Here is how I describe it in my book The Bible: A Historical and Literary Introduction (Oxford University Press, 2018).
******************************
No prophet of scripture emphasizes the deep and profound love of God for his people, and his bitter sense of betrayal for their unfaithfulness, more than the eighth-century Hosea. Here God is portrayed as the lover of Israel, which has rejected his adoration and become a whore.
Hosea and other prophets like him give me very strong “spouse abuse” vibes. “It’s your fault that I hit you, but if you say you’re sorry I shall take you back.”
Also, imagine going through life with symbolic names because your dad was a prophet.
“So, what’s your name?”
“Err…”
“C’mon, man.”
“Son-of-Whoredom. My dad was a prophet.”
I had a friend who had a very “distinctive” name who would always add after being asked their name, “My parents were hippies.” So I guess this isn’t a very new problem at all.
Haha— I say that too
Hello dr. Ehrman, is it safe to assume, that Hosea acknowledges existence of other gods, and that even in his days the Israelite religion was not mono- but henotheistic? A woman needs ANOTHER lover to be unfaithful after all…
He certainly seems to have been henotheistic, and I assume most of his contemporaries were. But we obviously can’t know for sure.
“The Lord indicates that he will remove his estranged spouse into the wilderness, and there he will “speak tenderly to her” and rehabilitate her (2:14–23). In illustration of this message Hosea is instructed to go after his wife, who has become so promiscuous, and lure her back into their relationship. That too will be what happens when Israel returns to God, who originally called her his own: “Afterwards the Israelites shall return and seek the Lord their God . . . they shall come in awe to the LORD and to his goodness in these latter days” (3:5).
But before that, there are some ugly and bad times ahead: acts of prostitution, as Israel continues to adore and worship other gods more than Yahweh, and misery…”
Dr Ehrman, are you saying that after Hosea married his wife, she continued to do her deed of whoring herself? Hosea being her husband would have to allow her to whore herself to get the message across about breaking marital relationship (spiritual one) with Yhwh?
He didn’t want her to, but yes, she kept having sex with other men. It happens.
“he didn’t want her to”
but he must have allowed her to. he had to, otherwise how would the point get across?
imagine he married her and she never prostituted herself, what would be the point?
god knew she was a whore. hosea knew she was a whore.
god had to get a point across, how would he get a point across if hosea did not allow her to whore herself?
what is worse here is that in order for yhwh to get a point across, his laws pertaining to punishing adulter has to be kept on hold.
In my experience when one person wants to have sex with someone other than their spouse, they usually don’t ask permission. The same was true in antiquity.
jesus says that god ties the not in heaven, in case of hosea, he(god)k tied the not with a prostitute who he knew was going to be promiscuous.
if hosea knew god knotted him with prostitute, he would know she would be true to her name to get the point across about israels spiritual promiscuous relationship with yhwh, is this correct understanding ?
or does the text indicate that hosea was oblivious to whom he was marrying and what she would do in the future ?
Hosea is told to marry a woman who was promiscuous (1:2). You should read the book — it’s fascinating!
dr ehrman, i said “allow her to ” in sense of foresight, not in sense of permission.
i didn’t mean the following :
gomer : can i go to the neighbours house tonight
hosea : yes, go ahead.
Would marrying a prostitute normally be a violation of the Torah? In general, what are your thoughts about God evidently instructing or blessing his people to do things that normally would be considerd wrong? Eg Abraham commanded to commit child sacrifice, Joshua’s armies commanded kill innocent women and children, etc? Is the message that God is not bound to his own laws and can make exceptions where he pleases?
I don’t know that it’s a violation of Torah. But yes, God does order his people to do things he disapproves us. It’s a strange feature of the Bible….
Interesting that when you read the history books in the OT it is typically the men who stray, who are drawn to other gods, but when Hosea writes about it he depicts Israel as an unfaithful woman, rather than an unfaithful man. It might have been more accurate if Hosea was the one who demonstrated promiscuity instead of his wife. I guess this is what happens when you let men write the Scriptures.
I have a question whose source is my partial misreading of the statement above concerning God punishing His people for their “for failure to worship God properly“.
[That is, I initially understood this to mean that they were being punished for not doing a good job in their worship, whereas it becomes clear that the actual sin is worshipping another (or no) God(s).
To belabor the adultery metaphor, I suppose the difference would be between a spouse who deliberately cheated and one who, while faithful, might not be, say, sufficiently affectionate.]
So the question is, are there examples where the complaint is that the People, while they might be technically adhering to the Law, are just doing a lousy job of it?
Yes, plenty of those as well. Improper worship here means something like staying in the relationship but having affairs on the side.
Hosea 6:6 is all one needs to know about the false religion of Christianity. Christians try to prop up their fallacious sacrificial Jesus with a Scripture that includes, “For I desire steadfast love, and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings.” Um, yeah. You heard God: No sacrifice.
when yhwh wants sacrifices, he does not seem to be viewing it in the pagan sense. in the pagan sense, sacrifices have magic. in yhwhs understanding, you got to offer a quality offer by looking after the animal. if the animal is sick or diseased , you cant offer it. yhwh says that if diseased comes, then the rule is prayer , charity and repentance….yhwh is not ritualistic like the christian god.
yhwh does not say that he does not have desire for a nice juicy steak from quality offering, he says knowledge of god trumps juicy quality offers.
i think jeremiah, amos and isaiah start hating on sacrifices.
In Amos, we see the “woe” oracles begin in 5:18 and introduce the “Day of Yahweh” concept. Do you have any insight as to what the precise meaning of this is? I am at a loss. Maybe a futuristic significance pointing to a “day” that was to come? t is quite clear that “that day” was, in the hopes of the public, to be a time of joy and blessing. But, Amos spoke of doom from which there was no escape.
Or maybe that “Yahweh’s Day” was New Year’s Day, the time of new beginnings, of purgation of past sins and evils, and the day when Yahweh, personified by the cultic symbol, the ark, or by the king, was enthroned. Each New Year’s Day was Yahweh’s Day when it was expected that the new and hoped for future would begin. The prophetic oracle would announce the nature of that day. The people looked for a favorable oracle, but Amos spoke of judgment. Your guess would be as good as mine……
The Day of Yahweh was when God was to appear and enter into judgment with his people. It was not a happy Day. Later people (today still) talk about it as if it is the time of their salvation. But when Amos says “Prepare to meet your God,” it is not an exciting prospect.
Bart,
Why can’t you, and you other commenters, understand that “day of judgment” is an INDIVIDUAL event, at death, and either positive or negative, not some collective strapping behind the woodshed? This is *literature,* not history! Every teenie, tiny detail in these stories illustrates personal growth, not social reckoning.
Although Hosea’s emphasis may be on Israel’s abandonment of Yahweh, it is clear he goes on to also condemn the unjust and unethical behavior that has often gone with this abandonment. There is more to this prophet’s oracles than a Yahweh that is pouting because he has been ignored.
That the first three of ten commandments are about how one is to “treat God” is an indication.
Dr. Ehrman,
I enjoyed attending your enlightening lecture on Paganism today. I had a question for you, but I was too late in line to ask it on the Zoom call, so I will ask here.
Question: How was prophecy viewed in paganism? You indicate that Bible prophets were focused on events in their own day and time contra most people’s understanding of prophecy today. If pagans understood their prophecies as more future-looking, could that be how people came to understand Bible prophecy as future-looking? If not, how and when did people come to understand Bible prophecy as predictions about the far future?
There was some forward looking prophecy in paganism, but not much. When God “spoke” it was more often in an oracle, in answer to a specific question about what was to happen soon. In ancient Israel it was pretty much the same: the prophets of Scripture were indicating what would happen to the people if they didn’t repent. When Christains began to say that Jesus was part of God’s plan, they had to start thinking about VERY distant prophecy. There was precedent for that, though. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, Scriptures from centuries before were interpreted as having to do with their own day. (E.g., the Commentary on Habbakuk)
I quote from Barton’s “History of the Bible,” which Bart has recommended on his blog:
“Prophecy as a social phenomenon existed all over the ancient Near East, and there are many texts about people we would identify as prophets in ancient Mesopotamia, particularly in the archive of texts found at Mari on the Euphrates. The prophet is a person (man or woman) who has privileged access to the gods because of special psychic powers, and who is consulted by rulers when planning some major undertaking — and sometimes even takes the initiative in warning or exhorting them to engage in or abstain from a military campaign, for example. Thus Letter 7 from Mari has a prophet opposing the making of a peace treaty by King Zimri-Lim with Eshnunna. Sometimes prophets in Mari took the initiative in prophesying a bad outcome to some proposed course of action by the ruler, though none that we know went so far as to oppose his or her king outright, as we find in Israel and Judah. One non-Israelite prophet familiar from the Hebrew Bible, Balaam (see Numbers 22-24), has turned up in a wall inscription in Syria.”
(continued in next comment…)
(continued from previous)
“Prophets in Israel, whom we meet in the books of Samuel and Kings, to some extent match the pattern known from Mari. They differ, though, in two important ways. First, they sometimes talk not of the outcome of one particular battle or campaign, but of the future of the nation or of the ruling dynasty as a whole… More significant still, they sometimes step out of their role as political advisers to comment on the morals and general behaviour of the kings of Israel and Judah, in a way unparalleled anywhere else in the ancient Near East.”
So neither Hebrew prophets nor pagan prophets were seen as predicting the far future. I think Daniel is the cause for a lot of this, since the book of Daniel claims he lived in the 6th century BCE and was predicting things that related to the 2nd century BCE. (The book was actually written in the 2nd century, but readers didn’t know that.)
As an agnostic, do you think it was a mistake to have accepted the Old Testament as part of the Christian holy book despite the fact that Jesus never believe in the OT?
Jesus was a teacher of the Old Testament. That’s what he saw himself doing.
What does the Bible understand “sin” to be? I would think that the basic idea is disobeying God’s will. Sometimes there also seems to be a sense of sin that goes a little beyond simple disobedience. There’s a sense that the sinner has offended God in the sense of disrespecting him, insulting him, perhaps the way a slave could disrespect a master.
I’ve also heard sin defined as “missing the mark.” I think I’ve heard that that’s a literal translation of the (Greek or Hebrew?) word for sin. That makes sin sound more like a simple, honest mistake rather than something stemming from morally wrong intent.
I suppose it’s unlikely there’s a single definition of sin in the Bible. But I’m wondering if there are a few basic notions and what they are.
It’s not an easy question. I have a colleague who has written a full book on the OT view of sin (Joseph Lam) and a friend (guest blogger) who has written a couple of books about sin in the NT and early Xty (Jeffrey Siker). In the NT, the basic idea is usually a transgression against God’s law or will; the Greek word used is indeed the term used in archery for missing the target (used in secular Greek as well); Paul thought of sin certainly as that, but also as a cosmic power that was in the world trying to enslave God’s people (with considerable success)
Here’s a follow on to my question about the definition of sin.
Are injustice, mistreatment of the poor, murder, etc., considered sinful (simply/mainly) because they harm human beings or because they violate God’s law? I suppose the answer is both but is one more basic?
God’s law tells people the right thing to do and in terms of social relations is typically how not to harm another or to make restitution when there is harm. So it’s kind of a chicken and egg question. Which came first?
I’ll play devils advocate. The 1st commandment was considered the most important commandment. To worship other gods was essentially a direct insult to their creator/redeemer. They were essentially disowning God and breaking their covenant relationship with him, as a spouse unashamedly committing adultery with multiple partners.
If God truly redeemed and created them, then he has the sovereign right to demand their full allegiance and covenant faithfulness. We value covenant faithfulness in human relationships. Wouldn’t it be even more reasonable to expect the same thing in a covenent relationship between man and his creator?
They sacrifice on the top of mountains”, sounds sectarian and saying you must sacrifice at HIS/our temple and we priests love lamb chops? Sacrifice was universal until Christians called it offerings. Perhaps its the translation, as it sounds like a Reformation Sermon with the known other clergy and monarchs referred to in the same manner.
There are quite a lot of interesting issues buried in this: 1. Should God ever be angry with us for any reason? 2. Should God be angry with us for failing to worship him, or worshipping something or someone in place of him? 3. What is worship anyway? 4. Should religion just be about ethics?, or should their be worship and doctrine thrown in and, if so, how should one determine the balance? 5. Is their a relationship between right belief, right worship and right ethical living? Ie does getting one right, affect how you do the others? 6. Were Calvin and Augustine right about human beings being incapable of doing any good without God’s help? 7. If God exists, then what does he want from us? 8. Did Jesus preach a different God from Hosea, Isaiah, Jonah, David, Moses
etc (as the Marcionites believed? 9. What is anger? 10. Is it right for us ever to be angry? 11. Is God ever angry?
I have recently come across a similar tension in Hinduism between jnana-marga (gnosis/enlightenment); karma-marga (right behaviour) and bhakti-marga (devotion to the Gods). Sorry for not offering any answers 😂
Neurotheologist, thanks for your good contribution!!
When Bob Dyland sings “knock on heavens door” ,,, I will probably become a Bob Dyland atheist. I would argue that he never knocked on any door ,,,,,,, and never went to heaven to knock on a wooden door or anything like that ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but ,,, ,,,,,, BoB Dyland ,,, as the Book of Hosea is written in poetry. Read it like that !!!
so ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, would that make me an Bob Dyland atheist who does not believe it literally ,, his ascension to heaven ,,, to knock on someone’s door? ,,,, or, ,,,,,,, No not at all !!
The book of Hosea, like many of the other prophets, is about the same message. Try ,,,,,,, to at least go beyond the American fundamentalist urge to interpret everything literally ,,,,, to find out the real conceptual framework ,,,,,,,,,,,,, so what is this poetry in the Book of Hosea all about?,,,,in my mind,,, It’s all about restoration !! ,,, just read it !! ,, like many of the other prophets and also the framework elsewhere in the OT. That’s the story of ourselves !! So, just read the book as it really is ,,, a poetry, and that’s what the book is about. The divine reactions ,,, anger ,,,, etc are only causal reactions related to adjustments.
Just read this book again ,,, and maybe again ,,, you will also find the same pattern as many of the other prophetic OT books) ,,,,,,,,, who uses the same symbolism.
They are talking about restoration !!! including all of us (even me ,,, believe it or not) sooner or later!
Anger ain’t a sin till it determines what you do
That’s the opposite of what I’d always thought
So I ignored my emotions and I let my anger brew
Till the ones I loved became the ones I fought
—Mr & Mrs Something (Benjamin & Chelsea Peck)
Is anger the emotion or is anger the explosive reactivity to the emotion?
If it’s the emotion, then we can learn to “sit with” the emotion until we decide what to do about it — like the story of the Buddha who saw Mara (the embodiment of negative emotions like anxiety, fear, anger, desire) and invited him to sit and have a cup of tea.
I think too many Christians are (perhaps unintentionally) taught it’s wrong to feel the anger in the first place, so they stuff and ignore until they explode — as Mr & Mrs Something sing. Maybe that’s what Yahweh did! 😉
Although I now consider many of the OT and Revelation stories to be allegorical about the ascending soul, it bothers me a lot to read about the gender-related /sexual biased metaphors which occures over and over again.
To be honest, they disgust me,,,,,,,,,every time!
Professor, o senhor não tem previsão de publicar este livro em português no Brasil?
Do you mnean my book on Revelation? We won’t be offered publication rights by international presses until after the ENglish itself is published. But I hope it will come into Portuguese!
Do we know whether Hosea actually married a woman called Gomer?
Was Gomer truly unfaithful? Or was perhaps Hosea jealous to the point of delusion?
What about the children with the unfortunate names, is that historical?
I think the general opinion is: probably not. It’s all a metaphor.
It’s interesting to me that Gomer is a woman’s name. I suppose it dates me but the only other person named Gomer that I can think of is the male, fictional Gomer Pyle. Every time I come across Gomer that’s all I can think of.
Seems like Hosea was working out some of his poor life choices through writing. Writing was then and still is now the cheapest therapy.
The Bible is such a great book about humans, if you just ignore all the supernatural bits.
Hi Dr Ehrman!
So in Luke’s interpretation of Jesus’ death…. is it only Jews who need to repent or everyone? If it’s everyone, why everyone if Jesus was a Jewish prophet?
Thank you!
Luke knows that Jesus was a Jew; but yes, the fact that God’s final prophet got rejected (by them) makes people realize they’ve sinned and so they repent.
Hi Dr Ehrman!
1. So when Jesus chastises the Pharisees for hypocrisy but then teaches that one must keep the law Better than them… what is he chastising and what is he in favour of?
2. How do we know that Jesus’ death was not part of Jesus’ plan for salvation?
Thank you!
1. He thinks they don’t practice what they preach. His followers *should* practice what the Pharisees preach. this is found only in Matthew, and is overlooked by most readers. 2. We don’t know for certain, but based on everything we’re pretty sure he does say, this doesn’t seem to fit in very well.
“I suppose these atrocities were part of your deconversion story.” said Woodystock
You answered “..but they didn’t cause me angst the way actual real-time human suffering did and does.”
Human inflict suffering on our human brothers are even worst. Ethnic cleansing, genocide, slaughter, massacre, painful tortures, whereby millions of our human race suffered caused by human. Logically, for the same reason, are we going to discard our humane race just like the rejection of the existence of God?
I have tremendous respect for your high degree of intelligence and the ability for applying sound reasoning and judgement. To be reasonable and justifiable, both micro and macro aspect of the evaluation on suffering must be given equal emphasis.
Suffering is just a minor aspect of the long list of part and parcel of life. Life encompass much more which include our existence and after death when those who committed the atrocity will be given fair trial for their crime on the Day of Judgement . We have not even considered and marveled at the function and creation of the universe which has an estimated radius, based on today’s knowledge, at 46 billion light years.
Would you kindly reevaluate your stand?
I think one of the biggest challenge of theodicy is to prove that despite all that God is still all-loving. Noone makes that claim about humanity…
Has your view of 1st Corinthians 14:34-35* changed over the years and if so, how?
* Womenshould remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
For decades I’ve considered it an interpolation. Still do!
Since it was a,”spirit of whoredom.” Humans can’t see spirits, or ghosts. Why did god allowed this spirit to get into the people? I suppose it’s simular to the serpent in the garden of Eden, god let it happen, so he would have an excuse to be cruel and hateful to his people. I’m beginning to think the old testament, is a trick to deceive people into loving and worshipping the most vile, hateful being in all of fiction.
Since it was a,”spirit of whoredom.” Humans can’t see spirits, or ghosts. Why did god allowed this spirit to get into the people? I suppose it’s simular to the serpent in the garden of Eden, god let it happen, so he would have an excuse to be cruel and hateful to his people. I’m beginning to think the old testament, is a trick to deceive people into loving and worshipping the most vile, hateful being in all of fiction.
The Lord asked the prophet Hosea to marry a prostitute. The Prophet’s cohabitation with the prostitute was a representation of God, who in a way, was living with an immoral woman – in this case the “Jewish synagogue”. So, although Hosea’s words are prosaic, they had a deeper spiritual meaning.
One could say that Hosea’s words were “shadows” of a reality that had a deeper spiritual meaning.
This is something that almost always happens when the Church Fathers mention Jesus. They point to events in the Torah and say that this and that event were “shadows” of a spiritual reality that included the living Jesus.
This seems to me like taken straight out of Plato’s metaphysics.
The great difference between Jews and Christians in Plato’s cave parable was that the Jews still only perceived the shadows as reality, while the Christians had turned around towards the light outside, and saw the spiritual reality.
From a Christian point of view:
The letter (shadow) from the Torah would only kill the Jews, while a spiritual reading of the same Torah would lead to awakening and set the Christians free.
God had asked Hosea to live with a prostitute. Judah, Jacob’s son, had also had an affair with what he thought was a prostitute, but who turned out to be his own daughter-in-law, Tamar.
Maybe this also turned out to be just shadows on the wall at the bottom of the cave?
Judah had been married and had three children. The first son was married to Tamar, but this son would not complete the marriage and was killed by the Lord. The same sad fate happened to his second son. Two out of three sons from Judah’s first marriage were killed by the Lord.
Zechariah 13: 8 Two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it.
Judah ended up in a meeting with Tamar, who he thought was a prostitute.
Judah promised to give Tamar a goat out of his flock. Instead she becomes pregnant with children.
Think about the symbolism that two goats have in the Torah, one as a scapegoat and one as God’s sacrifice. After all, Tamar gave birth to twins, where one child got a scarlet band in the same way that the scapegoat had a scarlet band around the horns.
The Church Fathers speak of shadows and types in the Old Testament.
The baptism of Jesus was such an event described in shadows and types.
Joseph was the beloved son of Jacob, but his brothers hated him. Joseph could be compared to a small “stone” that the brothers had stumbled upon, but this little stone would eventually grow into a large mountain.
But before Joseph became a mountain, he was humble. Joseph was betrayed by his brothers, beaten and degraded by Potiphar and eventually thrown into the dungeon. Joseph was like a sacrificial lamb before God, and he kept quiet.
Joseph sat in darkness in the dungeon just as Noah sat in the ark waiting for redemption. It was soon time for the Stone to become a Mountain, but someone had to point Him out.
The cup bearer and the baker each had a dream one night. Joseph came to them the next day just as Jesus came to John by the Jordan the next day.
Joseph was now about to be born again. Joseph was about to be made manifest to Israel.
Joseph interpreted the cupbearer’s dream and set him free, just as Noah had done with the dove in the Ark. And just as the dove returned with a good message, the cup-bearer remembered Joseph and pointed him out to Pharaoh. The dungeon was opened and Joseph was born again as a better man, now exalted as a king.
Only now, when the baker saw the miracle that was fulfilled with the cup-bearer, did he understand the power that resided in Joseph.
John saw the miracle of the “dove” and he believed.
As we read, the baker was beheaded by Pharaoh.
If we read the New Testament literally, we will probably find this interpretation quite far-fetched
But if we dive deep into what the Church Fathers really say, it makes perfect sense.
What would give this story more theological power than if we identify the baker as the suffering Job, who here ends his days in the dungeon with Joseph?
Dr. Ehrman. After carefully reading every word from the Church Fathers, I have come to this conclusion Concerning John the Baptist and the prophecy given to Zechariah.
The Christians assumed Job to be Jobab, a son of Esau. Therefore is the prophecy given by Isaac to Jacob and Esau well worth studying.
Let us assume that Zechariah represents Esau,
the angel Gabriel represents Isaac
and the altar of incense represents Jacob.
After all, it was the smell of Jacob’s clothes that made Isaac bless him.
It was now Esau’s turn to be blessed. But when Esau came in to his father, his father was already standing at the altar of incense, on the right side; meaning giving his blessing to Jacob with his right hand. Esau was startled and cried out with a loud voice after what he had discovered.
Esau was given a blessing, but the blessing of abundance of grain and new wine was already given to Jacob, therefore Esau received the opposite blessing: “He shall drink no wine or strong drink”.
Isaac’s Blessing also said that Esau would live in the wilderness without dew from heaven.
In the same way that Esau argued with Issac, so did Zechariah with the Angel, which led to Zechariah being dumb. The Greek word for “Blessing” is εὐλογὲω. It is a compound word where the part λὸγος means “Word” or “Speech”. In a way, it could be said that losing the blessing was like losing the speech.
Jobab was a descendant of Esau’s relationship with Bashemath, Ishmael’s daughter.
The theological point of John’s jump in Elisabeth’s belly could be taken from when Esau and Jacob were in Rebekah’s belly. In a way, Jobab was also a descendant of Rebekah. Or in another way: Jacob and Jobab could also be seen as brothers – the brothers James and John.
Maria went up to the mountain villages where Elisabeth lived and was there for three months. Theological speculations could easily have come to the conclusion that it was to Mount Seir that Tamar had gone, to her cousin Bashemath, when she was away for three months from Judah.
In a way, the enmity was united in this action.
Was Job as powerful as God?
This is the big question in the Book of Job!
Job’s friends had asked him this question and God asked him the question. No, Job wasn’t God. Job wasn’t even worthy to loosen the strap of His shoes. But Job was a friend of God!
When God spoke to Job out of the whirlwind and the cloud, Job was asked to stand up and gird his loins like a man.
John the Baptist had said that he wasn’t Christ, but in this moment John could stand up as a friend of the Bridegroom and listen to His magnificent speech out of the whirlwind.
– Who then are you, Job, since you are not God, and who is He to whom you witness?
– He is the Bridegroom. I’m His friend, and to Him I send all those I have prepared as a Bride at His approach – a Bride gathered from all nations in purity of hearts and baptized for the remission of sins. That’s why I stand here and have girded my loins.
Job had four “disciples” where at least three of these were baptized by Job until repentance and remission of sins.
Job 42:8
The harsh words of John must be read as Christian polemic against the Jews.
John told the Jews, “Bear fruit worthy of repentance.”
– You were blessed with an abundance of grain and wine by Father Isaac, then bear fruit worthy of repentance!
Job, through Esau, had received a blessing that he would live by the sword and that there would come a time when the yoke of Jacob would be broken. The Christians could therefore let John explain to the Jews that the ax was already at the root of the trees. The Jewish tree did not bear the fruits that Isaac had blessed them with.
Do not say, ‘We have Abraham as our father. For I say to you, God can raise up children for Abraham from these stones.’
It was as if Job was pointing out his own ten dead children – his own children who were “stone dead” – and that God would raise them up for him.
John: A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Job: The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.
You say that Hosea was a contemporary of Amos; but is there any evidence that they (or any other of the Hebrew prophets) personally knew each other– as opposed to knowing them through their writings only? And, if so, were there signs of any kind of animosity towards them– in the same way that certain NT gospels (canonical and non) have divergent views?
I know there are warnings against “false prophets” as a whole, but do any of these warnings/admonitions/rebukes seem directed at a particular prophet or perhaps a particular view? For instance does someone whose main concern seem to be social issues condemn or throw some kind of shade at those for whom proper worship takes precedence over all else, including the care of the old, infirm, or poor or (less likely maybe) the other way around?
There’s no evidence they knew each other *or* knew each others’ writings.
From what you said about the messages of Amos and Hosea, it would appear that Jesus (assuming he actually said it) was on the right track when he said in Matthew 22:37-40 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Do you think that he got it right or is that too simplistic?
I’m not sure what you mean by “got it right”? It was his interpretation of the most important aspects of the Law.
What I mean is do you think that he was right that the law and prophets center around those two commandments?
It really depends on what you mean by “center around.” Does that mean “what they talk the most about”? Or “what they were perosnally most concerned about”? Or “what their most focused on in their writings?” or “best summarized by”? These are all different. In Jesus view, the major teachings of them could be summed up in these two commandments, and I would agree that a good case can be made that that’s right.
Apologies for being a off-topic…..
Dr Ehrman,
Can you teach us a bit about Toledot Yeshu?
Would it be possible to get Amy Jill Levine’s take on that as well?
Regards,
I”m not an expert on it, I’m afraid.
Two thoughts:
1. the Jewish story of the man who gave up on the Torah and just believed in God. When God heard, he said, would that he had chosen the Torah.
2. The Tao te Ching says, “The gods are not humane.” Taken to mean the gods don’t care about us.
Sorry if this is a bit random, but I’ve been wondering for a while if you have some sort of mnemonic system for remembering chapter and verse numbers for Bible quotes that you cite frequently. Or is it all rote?
Rote.
God is omni-everything, yet he loses his cool because a bunch of insignificant humans on one world among trillions doesn’t properly grovel at his metaphysical feet. This, even more than theodicy, caused me to abandon my religious upbringing. Yet this view hasn’t yet emerged in this series of posts. What gives?! 🙂
In northern New Mexico, Gomersinda (female) or Gomersindo (male) are common old-fashioned names, primarily among the crypto-Jewish community. We were going to name our youngest daughter Gomersinda, but the other kids complained. The story of Hosea and Gomer was very popular as an example of human ability to change and God’s grace to even the most challenging “sinners.” The moral of the story was not to give up on anyone, but keep trying. Love them and love can change all things. Everyone has comething to contribute.
Your other children sound very wise. 🙂
Bart:
In your posts regarding the preparation for your book on Revelation, your readers might be interested in a new book published by Princeton that was reviewed on H-Net.https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=55990. The author of the book argues that the Book of Joshua is critically important for the Israeli occupation. Joshua was used as a text in a workshop led by Ben Gurion to solidify Jewish cohesion and is still used today by many Israeli politicians. The author uses Marxist and feminist scholarship to advance her case, which might turn off many readers. But the book does look interesting in how the Bible can be utilized politically in Israel.
Is Hosea 6:7 the first mention of Adam in the Bible? Or is it a reference to Adam at all? The word could mean a personal or place name or humanity in general.
NRSV has like Adam
NET has at Adam
JPS has to a man
They all seem plausible to me. What do you think?
Hosea would not have had Genesis as we know it. But might have had J and E. The references to Jacob in chapter 12 are both similar to and different than J and E. Do you think Hosea was paraphrasing J & E, or quoting an earlier source?
It’s a disputed verse. “Adam” is the Hebrew word for “human being.” In any event, since J was earlier than Hosea, Genesis 2 would be the first mention. I doubt if Hosea had access to Genesis or J, but I suppose there’s no way to know for sure.
Is it about worship of god or how we treat people? YES. The peoples who worshiped false gods would also treat people wrongly. Now someone will come along and say “not all of them did” . But I would love to see an example. If there was ever a nation/community who treated eachother correctly, and did not end in some kind of mess, I would imagine it would still exist today, and it would grow to the point of being the largest “nation” if not world wide. After all is it not the goal of almost every person to live in such harmony?
The interesting part is the conversations on these topics are human perspective. Why does god do this, or does god want that, etc. It leaves the very premise of the biblical books, his perspective. People will say “well we just cant understand his perspective”, and maybe we cant in perfect totality, but god explains things so that we can begin and build on that understanding.
Why does god not want people worshiping other gods, why is he so jealous?
-Well as the creator of all things he knows how it is supposed to work, and knows what happens if you do it wrong. It is like not listening the the engineer who built the machine your using, if you do this wrong the machine will crush you, if you use it correctly, it will give you everything you want and need.
-So why does god punish, 1 part is consequence of using the machine wrong, the other is behavior modification, the engineer says if you pull that lever one more time Im gonna smack you in the head, that way you wont pull that lever. Why does god not want people worshiping other gods, why is he so jealous?
-Well as the creator of all things he knows how it is supposed to work, and knows what happens if you do it wrong. It is like not listening the the engineer who built the machine your using, if you do this wrong the machine will crush you, if you use it correctly, it will give you everything you want and need.
Hm, so do you count Muslims as worshippers of one true God as well? Do you suggest that all Far Eastern countries are incapable of fair treatment of their fellows? And what about Japan priding themselves of ancient continuity, or China, or… you name it? Yes, with messy bits, but name a “Christian” nation which didn´t undergo revolts, civil wars etc., I don´t know of any. Also according to Genesis YHWH isn´t the creator of everything, he did a lot of “mere” separation of preexisting stuff, and the proto-Earth was already there (When God began to create…), and add to it the remanants of ancient combat creation myth (who created ancient monsters and the Earth that God supposedly subdued? I don ´t know, Bible doesn´t tell : )
You may’ve answered this before but I’m unable to find it, apologies if I’m asking again.
Do you have a list detailing which order the Old Testament books were most likely written in? I think you may’ve said it was in one of your books and I was wondering which one.
For example, I’ve read that Amos was most likely the first OT book to be written, is that true?
Many thanks.
It’s hard to make a precise list, but Amos, Hosea, and Micah, e.g., were all among the earliest, and Ecclesiastes and Daniel were among the last.
1- Commandments in scripture are spiritual laws, similar to scientific laws that govern all creation. Breaking a law has to be answered for. Those “Do this, don’t do that” are imperative warnings which precede our bad actions.
2- In respect to proper worship. Intent is key – Your physical body is symbolic of that key. If folds and bends in a particular direction suitable for prostration. This is no accident. The structured position of prayer was taught to Prop. Mohammed (saw). In G-d’s prescence, the physical body cannot stand it folds – ref. Moses & Mountain fainted before Allah.
I think this raises a tangentially related question: What is the nature of God?
There seem to be a diversity of different concepts of God. And each of these concepts have internal consistence… separate from the other concepts. And, as with the four gospels, there is an inclination to assume that everything can be smushed together into a single coherent story. But, when we separately look a5 each version of God…. These versions do not see: to add up to any unified idea, Is god a vengeful god, or a loving god? Does god already know what we will do… or do we have free choice? If god wants us to understand him…. Why are his intentions so ambiguous? Is good a jealous god…. And if so, why don’t we usually think of idealized humans as being intensely jealous? Why does god need us to worship him… is he insecure? If god loves humans… why did he come up with the idea of selecting one obscure tribe to be his chosen people? What about human suffering?
Yup, these are some of the big questinos, and all related!
Answering a few QA by Ardy
1- G-d is not a jealous G-d. He is the only G-d… there is no other like Him
2 – There is no such thing as a chosen people. All human beings are one humanity. The word human is “Hue-man” which means man of many colors and man made from humus (earth), flavored by the sun and their geographical local. Skin color is a sign of smart tech built into the body to allow adaption to the environmental proximity to the sun. Color is no a marker of good or evil.
A powerful timely example of the science of physical body to adapt to its environment:
Astronaut Scott Kelly grew 2 inches taller in space than his twin brother | in 0 gravity Scott Kelly grew 2 in taller than his twin brother, less compression on the spine | Took about a year to shrink back to normal height. Allah is the Master Creator and the power to adapt is built within the physical creation in real time.
For a grand tour of adaption study the various insects in you backyard and enjoy the show.