I have trouble understanding where Moses and Elijah came from during the Transfiguration. Did God let them come out of Sheol for that conversation or did God temporarily raise them from the dead? The whole even just seems a little contrary to views about life after death prior to Jesus’s death and resurrection.
The Transfiguration has always been one of the most interesting episodes in the gospels to me. One of the weirder episodes in a already weird book like the Gospel of Mark. The traditional interpretation of course is that as Jesus displays his previously hidden divine glory he is joined by Moses representing the Law, and Elijah representing the Prophets, both testifying to the truth revealed by Jesus. We have no access to the writer’s intentions but it seems logical. But notice another quality about these two figures. Nether Moses or Elijah experienced what you would call a normal death. Both were taken and their lives disposed of by God. Perhaps this provides a hint of an answer to your question Jay. Perhaps neither a resurrection or a resuscitation but an appearance.
Dr Ehrman and a few other scholars seem to put an inordinate emphasis on ‘visions’ entailing ‘physical’ bodies
He, Ehrman, has stated (as I understand him) that Paul ‘would have’ understood Jesus’ gave was empty since Paul ‘saw’ Jesus’, even tho Paul does NOT explicitly say that. Ehrman has also said (according to author) Samuel’s physical body appeared in front of Saul and the witch. and I am pretty sure he interprets this transfiguration story to imply the presence of Moses’s and Elijah’s ‘physical’ bodies.
of course none of this makes sense to me, physical bodies dont resucciitate, dont disappear in clouds, appear in bright visions on certain occasions on roads between Jerusalem and Damascus ( and those physical bodies are only visible to one person, Paul, rather than everyone in his entourage). Dr Ehrman’s response, as I understand it, is even tho it doesn’t makes sense to me it did make sense to people living infers century Judea, I doubt that very seriously but what can I say . ..
If we view the Word of God or copies of manuscripts as merely words, then everything is meaningless. However, if we accept that the manuscripts were close to accurate to the originals, then we can entertain the prophetic implications of the overall story. Prior to the story on Mt. Transfiguration at the end of the previous chapter, it was told that some here would not taste death till they saw Jesus coming in his Glory. The the next chapter begins with on the last and greatest day of the feast. What feast? The feast of Tabernacle. The festivals being the appointed Times of God are a blueprint or framework for major events in this present age. This feast is a prophetic rehearsal of the coming of the Messianic Kingdom. In conclusion, these disciples did see Jesus glorified in the presence of the two witnesses which happen to be the Friends of the Bridegroom.
tompicard said
I might also assume, according to Dr Ehrman, that when Jesus’ vision of the dove descending on him after he rose from his baptism was in actuality a previously dead pigeon.
…and the Spirit descending on him like a dove…
“like” a dove. A figure of speech. A simile. A dove did not descend. The Holy Spirit descended “like” a dove. There is no substitute for a close reading.
Perhaps it’s time we start expanding how we view the afterlife or the next life. Many credible NDE’s show that there is no heaven/hell construction (or place of the dead). Rather, the next life is the place of continuing life. So Moses and Elijah never stopped continuing…..but they likely get different names! And, so as I see it, Jesus was using the transfiguration experience to show not only his own credentials but a sneak peak at the next step in continuing life. Recall, he also said to the thief on the cross, “today you will be with me in paradise.” Paradise is actually an intermediate place–something the Jews understood, I believe.
God is so far beyond my comprehension! He is such a completely different and powerful and creative and transcendent figure. He is greater and more “otherly” than I can begin to imagine. He knew we’d be having these exact discussions more than 13.8 billion years ago. He knew our names, every thought we would ever think. He’s present right now at our deaths. He lives in eternity and is so exquisitely beautiful and good and kind that for the first 34 trillion years in His presence, I won’t let Him out of my sight.
prestonp said
God is so far beyond my comprehension! He is such a completely different and powerful and creative and transcendent figure. He is greater and more “otherly” than I can begin to imagine.
He is not so far beyond your comprehension or so “otherly” that you hesitate to assign a gender to “Him.”
Jaynick77 said
I have trouble understanding where Moses and Elijah came from during the Transfiguration. Did God let them come out of Sheol for that conversation or did God temporarily raise them from the dead? The whole even just seems a little contrary to views about life after death prior to Jesus’s death and resurrection.
I have not been following this thread of late–nor do I think I’ve missed much–but I think you’re missing a vital point.
Leaving aside that this didn’t literally happen (so interpreting it literally isn’t helpful), you don’t have to assume Moses and Elijah were in Sheol. There’s actually no reference to Sheol anywhere in the gospels. (Hades is referenced in the story of Lazarus and Dives, but that’s a later addition, and probably not a story Jesus told, at least not in that form).
They could have been in heaven with God, even if Jesus didn’t believe most people had an otherworldly afterlife. Members of God’s court, you might say–after all, angels are up there right? They have bodies, of a sort. Heaven is a place for God and those who serve God. (Not by sitting on a cloud strumming a harp.)
Jesus himself might have believed he’d be taken into heaven after death–but this wouldn’t be a reward. It’s more like God not letting a worker down tools at the end of the day, because the job isn’t done.
There were Jews who talked about Elijah returning. One of them was Jesus. Possible he thought John the Baptist was Elijah returned–reincarnated? Others reportedly thought Jesus was Elijah. Herod is said to believe Jesus is John the Baptist, returned from the dead.
So in Mark, the Transfiguration is about both identifying Jesus with these earlier figures of Jewish belief, and saying he is something new, but still of that line of spiritual descent. All connected.
In my opinion, those who originally told the story of the Transfiguration didn’t mean for it to be taken literally, but as a representation of Jesus’ continuity with the great prophets and leaders of Judaism, how he was the fulfillment of their words.
Veering into the literal, how did the disciples recognize Elijah and Moses? The Markan story makes it hard to understand this point. And apparently the evangelist’s source thought Peter’s non sequitor quote was more important or well-founded to cite, than to unpack anything that Jesus and Elijah and Moses were purported to have been talking about.
It’s as if a Scientific American journalist walked into a room where a deep conversation between reincarnated Einstein, Newton and Galileo was taking place, was overcome with surprise, then listened intently and afterwards decided to only report his own misguided statement “Well, there’s sure a lot of gravitas in this room.”
Well, it’s an interesting question–there are, of course, no traditional artistic depictions of Jewish prophets they could refer to (later on, in the Christian tradition, perhaps). They wouldn’t be wearing nametags saying “Hello, my name is —–”
But these are arguably the two most iconic figures in the Torah, at least to Apocalypticists. And this is a mystical experience. So if we can believe it’s really them, we can just as easily believe they just gave off an aura that told everyone who they were.
In a dream, isn’t it possible you might see someone you’ve never met, and you just know?
There are also the gospel stories where the risen Jesus isn’t recognized at first. Then he reveals himself–I think the idea is, it’s really the soul you recognize, and it’s a matter of that being unveiled–the outer form giving way to the inner truth. Transfiguration.
Well said all.
godspell said
And this is a mystical experience. So if we can believe it’s really them, we can just as easily believe they just gave off an aura that told everyone who they were.
In a dream, isn’t it possible you might see someone you’ve never met, and you just know?
Alas, it’s a bummer that mystical experiences, empirically, aren’t persuasive to anyone who wasn’t party to the experience. The feeling of the dream sense of knowing is similarly internally generated and nontransferable. Editorial: Kinda annoying that the deepest experiences seem to be so ungenerously solipsistic. And equally frustrating that access to the deepest secrets scales with credulity.
Well, obviously these stories were persuasive to many, or this forum wouldn’t exist.
Suppose the opposite is true, and the original experiences were not that powerful (or at least different people present remembered them differently), but the stories that developed from them were?
Most of us have not had powerful religious/mystical experiences. But maybe down inside, most people would like to have had some form of revelation, some encounter with something beyond ordinary quotidian reality–whether it’s a religious vision, a UFO sighting, or meeting Bigfoot. So stories about such experiences are always very compelling, and make converts of people who never came close to having such experiences themselves. We are not content with reality. Never have been. We’re wary of new experiences, but yearn for them. Just like people who never got in a real fight in their lives want to see endless movies and videogames about fighting. You get a lot fewer bruises that way–well, there are risks to the mystic as well. But reading about it never hurt anybody.
There’s a line from the X-Files episode Humbug, written by the great Darin Morgan–“If people knew the true price of spirituality, there’d be a lot more atheists.”
Suppose the opposite is true, and the original experiences were not that powerful (or at least different people present remembered them differently), but the stories that developed from them were?
This is precisely my view of how Christianity developed. The Jesus of History was a pretty standard apocalyptic preacher. It was his followers who were the creative ones, especially Mark and Paul. The Jesus of Faith was created by generations of followers, the Jesus of History almost completely obscured in the process. Almost.
Most of us have not had powerful religious/mystical experiences.
I have had religious/mystical experiences all my life. The interesting part is that they continued even after I stopped believing. Consciousness is biochemistry. Change your biochemistry and you change your consciousness. You can train yourself to have these experiences or you can have them spontaneously. The Buddhist sees the bright light and is filled with peace and calls it Avalokita or Kuan Yin, the Boddhisatva of Infinite Compassion. The Christian sees the bright light and is filled with peace and calls it Christ or Mary or the Holy Spirit. Both are having the same experience, a human experience, but interpreting it through a pre-existing cultural lens. Just call me the Mystic Atheist. Heh heh heh. I see the bright light and feel the peace and call it…
Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu
Buddhist, sufi, or zen. Not any religion
or cultural system. I am not from the East
or the West, not out of the ocean or up
from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not
composed of elements at all. I do not exist,
am not an entity in this world or in the next,
did not descend from Adam and Eve or any
origin story. My place is placeless, a trace
of the traceless. Neither body or soul.
I belong to the beloved, have seen the two
worlds as one and that one call to and know,
first, last, outer, inner, only that
breath breathing human being.
-Rumi
Would that you could upload those experiences to my brain – I’d be fascinated.
In my former religious days, I had a few intense experiences – but highly emotional, not mystical. I’m pretty good at directing my attention, so I can do rudimentary mindfulness practice fairly easily. But I’m terrible at letting go of that attention director, so mystical isn’t easy for me (read: not happened yet). The closest I’ve come to mystical is a couple of amazing concerts.
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