I have seen this recent news bit about a Turkish Gospel of Barnabas that claims Jesus was not crucified.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
and the discovery of an Egyptian army in the red sea.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Does this mean that most of what we as Gnostics believe could be wrong because there are evidence now?
Hmmm… a gospel found in a Muslim country that agrees with Muslim ideology. Very convenient. It even mentions Muhamed, unlike any other Christian gospel found.
I copy and pasted this for you. It may give you a starting point for your investigation.
For those who were previously unaware of the work, the Gospel of Barnabas is a late, pseudepigraphical text depicting the life of Jesus, and claiming to be written by Jesus’ disciple Barnabas. In the canonical Christian Bible, however, Barnabas is not a disciple of Jesus, but a friend of Paul, who the Gospel of Barnabas is actually not much of a fan of. In this work, however, he is set as one of the twelve apostles.
Two manuscripts of this work have existed, but both date to the late 16th century and are written respectively in Italian and in Spanish, not in Syriac. I repeat, there is no version of the Gospel of Barnabas written in Syriac.
Finally, there is not one source from any journal of Near Eastern Religions or History that makes any reference to such a find. Why? Because it’s all some giant conspiracy?
FocusMyView said
Hmmm… a gospel found in a Muslim country that agrees with Muslim ideology. Very convenient. It even mentions Muhamed, unlike any other Christian gospel found.
I copy and pasted this for you. It may give you a starting point for your investigation.For those who were previously unaware of the work, the Gospel of Barnabas is a late, pseudepigraphical text depicting the life of Jesus, and claiming to be written by Jesus’ disciple Barnabas. In the canonical Christian Bible, however, Barnabas is not a disciple of Jesus, but a friend of Paul, who the Gospel of Barnabas is actually not much of a fan of. In this work, however, he is set as one of the twelve apostles.
Two manuscripts of this work have existed, but both date to the late 16th century and are written respectively in Italian and in Spanish, not in Syriac. I repeat, there is no version of the Gospel of Barnabas written in Syriac.
Finally, there is not one source from any journal of Near Eastern Religions or History that makes any reference to such a find. Why? Because it’s all some giant conspiracy?
Gospel of Barnabus is probably a fake. Moving on!
There are 4 verses in the NT today which when Carefully Read and thought about can and will prove the Gospel of Barnabas is 100% True in regards to the crucifixion of Judas.
1. Mark 14:21
2. Luke 22:22
3. Matthew 26:24
4. John 17:12
in the first 3 Verse, Jesus is Quoted to have said He will Go away as it is written , BUT woe to the man that shall betray him, he will wish he was not Born.
Now! we all know it was Judas that Betrayed him. But the catch is on the statement “GO away as it is written”. This statement means whatever Jesus said in regards to his Going Away is written, and he must have Read. which Means anything about his betrayal was written and existed at his Time. We all know the NT was written many years after the ascension of Jesus, therefore anything in regard to his Betrayal and the Woes of Judas cannot be found in the NT. because of the statement “as it is written” quoted in the bible to be words of Jesus. so whatever we have in mind in regards to the Crucifixion of “Jesus” we have to Put it a side for a while.
The fourth verse i gave, John 17:12 , Jesus says he has not lost any of his disciples EXCEPT the one doomed to destructions for the Scriptures to be fulfilled. Again we all know that the only Disciple lost by Jesus was Judas, now doubt about it. But again Jesus is quoted to have said. Judas is Doomed to destruction so as the scriptures may be Fulfilled, Meaning he must have read it and he must have been assured by God Judas will be doomed to destruction and woes will befall him. and this is not to be found in the NT again because it was a fulfilment of a scripture existing at the time of Jesus.
Therefore! where was it written that Jesus will Go to and where does it say Judas will be “Destroyed”. i guess that is the next Question any person would ask. Since we are talking about Jesus let him take the Lead in Giving Us the answer. if we go read John 13:18 we see Jesus quoted saying his betrayal Shall be a fulfilment of a certain Passage of the scriptures and then there is a footnote on in john 13:18 that leads us to Psalms 41:9.
Now if you read Psalms 41:10-13 you will see that Jesus was raised to the Presence of God AND he got his PAY BACK or Revenge on his Enemies because God was Pleased with him and made his enemies not Triumph over him. and this was Fulfilled if you read Psalms 41:10-13 where it ends by saying AMEN and AMEN. so be it and so be it.
if you read Quran 4:157 and 3:54-55 , they almost paint the same Picture of Psalms 41:10-13, Gospel of Barnabas Chapter 216-217 tells you how it happened. Proving the words of Jesus in Mark 14:21, Luke 22:22 and Matthew 26:24. and to prove to you Jews never found Jesus to kill Him i refer you to John 8:21. it is quoted that Jesus Confirms to the Jews, He will Go away, and the Jews will die in their sins looking for Him, where he goes they will not Go. Jesus repeats the same thing to the disciple in John 13:33.
IT WAS ALL THERE IN THE BIBLE, YOU JUST HAD TO LOOK DEEPER. He was not Crucified, Neither was he killed but another was made to appear like him and was crucified. if you Read Quran 3:54 you will understand what it means by “And they [i.e., the disbelievers] planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.”
Robert said
Hi, mzejum.You seem to be assuming that the historical Jesus literally said that which was attributed to him in the gospels. But many of the words spoken by Jesus in the gospels reflect later theological views of the authors of the gospel.
Also, in Mk 14,21 and Mt 26,24 Jesus does not say, “Go away as it is written,” but rather:
ὁ μὲν υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὑπάγει καθὼς γέγραπται περὶ αὐτοῦ,
On the one hand, the Son of Man goes as it is written concerning him,
Luke may not have understood what scripture is being referred to here since he changes the wording slightly:
ὁ υἱὸς μὲν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου κατὰ τὸ ὡρισμένον πορεύεται,
On the one hand, the Son of Man goes as it is has been determined,
The author of the gospel of John, however, certainly understood Mark to be referring to Psalm 41,10 since he quotes it in Jn 12,18:
ἀλλ’ ἵνα ἡ γραφὴ πληρωθῇ· ὁ τρώγων μου τὸν ἄρτον ἐπῆρεν ἐπ’ ἐμὲ τὴν πτέρναν αὐτοῦ.
But in order the scripture be fulfilled, “the one eating my bread lifted against me his heal.”
Whereas Mark, likely alluding to Psalm 41, is speaking of the fate of Jesus being in accord with the scriptures, John sees Judas’ table fellowship and betrayal as an explicit fulfillment of this quoted scripture.
You seem to be relying on Psalm 41 to say that Jesus (or the evangelists) understood Jesus’ rising to be an escape from death, whereas Judas destruction to be his own death (on the cross). Clearly this is not the idea of the evangelists since they describe Jesus’ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection. I imagine this is why you are stressing how Jesus may have understood the psalm rather than how the evangelists understood the psalm in terms of Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection.
Can you please quote or post a link to Quran 4,157 and 3,54-55 and post a link to the gospel of Barnabas, chapters 216-217 so we can better follow your argument?
Hello Robert, i think may be you did not understand my point. but somehow what you said is in agreement with what i said. because “Going away” and “goes away” implies the same thing to me, But Goes sounds or implies at that moment of Time. But the key message which led me to Psalms is the statement “as it is written” which is also in your reply and like i said, at the time of Jesus there must have been a scripture that implies he will “GO” somewhere. the same implies to your quoting of Luke where you mentioned that the son of man goes where it has been DETERMINED. This means also that where the son of man said he will “GO” it was already determined at that time of Jesus. i have realized you are an expert on this But we all Know that the gospels were written years after Jesus. hence that which was “WRITTEN” and “DETERMINED” will not be in the NT.
John 13:18 is not an Opinion of John. it is the quoted words of Jesus referring to the events of his betrayal in Psalms. if we take it as an opinion why can we take All that is said by Jesus as the opinion of the scribes?
since you are an expert in this filled is there a prophecy that said the messiah will be Killed and will ressurect in a scripture during the time of Jesus , or before Jesus and the Old testament?
i have a challenge in Posting links but let me see if this works.
Quran ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Robert said
Hi, mzejum.You seem to be assuming that the historical Jesus literally said that which was attributed to him in the gospels. But many of the words spoken by Jesus in the gospels reflect later theological views of the authors of the gospel.
Also, in Mk 14,21 and Mt 26,24 Jesus does not say, “Go away as it is written,” but rather:
ὁ μὲν υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὑπάγει καθὼς γέγραπται περὶ αὐτοῦ,
On the one hand, the Son of Man goes as it is written concerning him,
Luke may not have understood what scripture is being referred to here since he changes the wording slightly:
ὁ υἱὸς μὲν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου κατὰ τὸ ὡρισμένον πορεύεται,
On the one hand, the Son of Man goes as it is has been determined,
The author of the gospel of John, however, certainly understood Mark to be referring to Psalm 41,10 since he quotes it in Jn 12,18:
ἀλλ’ ἵνα ἡ γραφὴ πληρωθῇ· ὁ τρώγων μου τὸν ἄρτον ἐπῆρεν ἐπ’ ἐμὲ τὴν πτέρναν αὐτοῦ.
But in order the scripture be fulfilled, “the one eating my bread lifted against me his heal.”
Whereas Mark, likely alluding to Psalm 41, is speaking of the fate of Jesus being in accord with the scriptures, John sees Judas’ table fellowship and betrayal as an explicit fulfillment of this quoted scripture.
You seem to be relying on Psalm 41 to say that Jesus (or the evangelists) understood Jesus’ rising to be an escape from death, whereas Judas destruction to be his own death (on the cross). Clearly this is not the idea of the evangelists since they describe Jesus’ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection. I imagine this is why you are stressing how Jesus may have understood the psalm rather than how the evangelists understood the psalm in terms of Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection.
Can you please quote or post a link to Quran 4,157 and 3,54-55 and post a link to the gospel of Barnabas, chapters 216-217 so we can better follow your argument?
Sorry, i forgot to mention something, Even the destruction of Judas was DETERMINED at that moment Jesus was saying this words to fulfil the scriptures that the enemies of Jesus will be repaid Back with revenge and they will never TRIUMPH Over Jesus. that is why there is a contradiction about Death of Judas, it seems nobody knows how Judas died but according to Psalms 41:10 he was Paid back , revenged upon, eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth, crucifixion for crucifixion.
mzejum said
JAS said
It is pretty clear that mzejum’s Bible is missing a lot of pages.
Jas if i may quote the Bible Again for you buddy, 2 Timothy 3:16 that’s your bible if you believed in it.
A quote that does not support anything you have said. Whether or not they are correct may be disputed, but to say that the NT gospels do not say that Jesus was crucified is simply crazy. (You probably think that Elvis is also still alive.)
Robert said
mzejum said
… is there a prophecy that said the messiah will be Killed and will ressurect in a scripture during the time of Jesus , or before Jesus and the Old testament?
There was not any explicit prophecy that the Messiah would be crucified and raised from the dead, but we do see the early Christians adapting a Jewish way of interpreting psalms and prophetic books whereby a secondary meaning of a text was thought to apply differently to a person in recent times. The community of Qumran applied this type of pesher exegesis to illustrate how events in the life of one of their reformers known as the Teacher of Righteousness were in this sense foretold in a secret meaning of older texts of scripture. Likewise Christians would use some texts of scripture to color the life of Jesus, eg, Psalm 22 and the story of the crucifixion and the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 52-53.
To understand how Mark is using scripture here see his explicit reference to scripture during this same meal (4,27)
And Jesus said to them, “You will all become deserters; for it is written:
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’
Mark views the scriptures as prophesying that Jesus will be ‘struck’. Earlier in Mark’s gospel, Jesus himself prophesied his fate more explicitly:
8,31 Then he began to teach them that the Son of Man must undergo great suffering, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 He said all this quite openly.
9,9 As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen, until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
9,31 for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, “The Son of Man is to be betrayed into human hands, and they will kill him, and three days after being killed, he will rise again.”
10,32 … He took the twelve aside again and began to tell them what was to happen to him, 33 saying, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; 34 they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”
There’s no question about how Mark saw Jesus’ fate. Do you also take these sayings of Jesus as literal statements of the historical Jesus?
Thanks for the links, I will look them up, time permitting.
What part of your point do you think I did not understand?
Like i had said Earlier on, According to the words of Jesus that i quoted, anything else in the NT in regards to the death and Crucifixion of Jesus is not applicable here and could be a fabrication or an insertion. John 13:18 clearly Points to Psalms 41:9 no doubt. And for Woe being unto Judas for him to be doomed for destruction is supported by Psalms 41:10-12. according to my understanding and may be you can correct me, a the fulfilment of a scripture is always the verses that follows below that scripture. likewise Fulfilment of the scripture in John 13:18 (Psalm 41:9) is what that follows next after psalms 41:9. and like i said this was a prophesy that was approved to be fulfilled. because Psalms 41:13 says , Amen, Amen. so be it , so be it.
other evidences pointing to Jesus not be crucified by the Jews is John 7:33-34 , John 8:21 where Jesus assures the Jews that he will go away to the one that sent him and the Jews will look for him to kill him , but where he Goes they will not go because they cannot Go. Jesus says the same thing to his disciple in John 13:33.
Come to think of it, Does the word “GO” in English mean to “Die”? or was the Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew word for “DIE” translated to “GO”.? if i say “i will GO to the supermarket, does that mean i will DIE to the supermarket.? comeon guys , i think English is more or a mother tongue for you than for me.
By the way the Phrase you mentioned that it was written “i will strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered” , indeed it was written in Zechariah 13:7 and if you continue reading the verses below Zechariah 13:7 has it got any event with what happened on that night. if a writer quotes a wrong Prophesy that is a falsified prophesy. For example Mathew 1:23 Quotes Isaiah 7:14 was Jesus the son Prophesied at the time of King Ahaz. definitely not.
you should be able to sieve what you read as an alleged prophecy, Go back read where it was referenced and you being an expert should be able to see if it is a true Prophesy or one of the Falsified Prophecies.
the part of my point that you did not understand is that whenever Jesus said “as it is written” it is something that existed in a scripture at his time and before his time, definitely Psalms and Torah , and not something in Mark.
and by the way have you noticed that almost ALL prophesies Christians Prophesy about the suffering of Jesus and their claimed Death , they All point to John the Baptist too. like you had agreed before their is no single prophecy about the death and ressurection of the Messiah not a single one and therefore All prophesies claimed to be suffering and death of the anointed one , they could mean John the baptist because he existed at the time of jesus and he was KILLED and he DIED. start with Daniel 9.
Jas if i may quote the Bible Again for you buddy, ** you do not have permission to see this link ** that’s your bible if you believed in it.
Of course “scripture” referring to the Hebrew Bible, not the New Testament, because obviously the NT didn’t exist yet.
One of the interesting things about the Quran is that the Jesus stories therein all seem to be derived from non-canonical sources. For example the Infancy Gospel of Thomas is the source of the story about Jesus as a child making clay birds and bringing them to life. And the denial of Jesus’ crucifixion may derive originally from Docetic sources.
One of the great ironies is that Prof Ehrman has a large fanbase among Muslims who cheer on discussions about the so-called “corruption” of the New Testament since it contradicts many of the claims about Jesus in the Quran. But these same folks suddenly bristle at the prospect of turning the critical textual apparatus on the Quran itself. Such work takes place however. More openly in the West, surreptitiously in Islamic countries (since it places the scholars in physical danger).
It can shown on textual grounds that the Quran cannot be the work of a single author. Aside from pre-Islamic sources being present in the text there is also the case of the inclusion of Persian loan words in parts of the text which would be totally anachronistic for Mohammad’s time.
Stephen said
Jas if i may quote the Bible Again for you buddy, ** you do not have permission to see this link ** that’s your bible if you believed in it.Of course “scripture” referring to the Hebrew Bible, not the New Testament, because obviously the NT didn’t exist yet.
One of the interesting things about the Quran is that the Jesus stories therein all seem to be derived from non-canonical sources. For example the Infancy Gospel of Thomas is the source of the story about Jesus as a child making clay birds and bringing them to life. And the denial of Jesus’ crucifixion may derive originally from Docetic sources.
One of the great ironies is that Prof Ehrman has a large fanbase among Muslims who cheer on discussions about the so-called “corruption” of the New Testament since it contradicts many of the claims about Jesus in the Quran. But these same folks suddenly bristle at the prospect of turning the critical textual apparatus on the Quran itself. Such work takes place however. More openly in the West, surreptitiously in Islamic countries (since it places the scholars in physical danger).
It can shown on textual grounds that the Quran cannot be the work of a single author. Aside from pre-Islamic sources being present in the text there is also the case of the inclusion of Persian loan words in parts of the text which would be totally anachronistic for Mohammad’s time.
Good Morning Mr Stephen,
Apart from Prof Erhman’s discussions on the corrupted NT, the NT Speaks for itself. let me Give you an example, If you read John 7:25-41 one can easily Conclude that The Jews Denied Jesus to be the messiah and a Prophet Because he was from Galilee, because their scriptures said the messiah will come from David’s descendants or from Bethlehem, the town where David Lived. From the same Chapter John 7:1,John 7:19 and John 7:25 , we can deduce that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because they believed him as a False Prophet , not from the house of David or from the town of David. and from the same chapter we can also Deduce that Jesus IS not from the House of David and hence All Scriptures or verses that say Jesus was from the house of David should be Taken Out and put in the dustbins. Anyway that is not Important.
What i wanted to point out as a contradiction clearly Portrayed in the NT, Did the Jews want to kill Jesus as a False Prophet OR Because of Blasphemy OR Because of Treason OR For the sins of People as Portrayed in the different books of the NT.?
In islam, The Jews Just denied Jesus as the messiah and the prophet of God that is why they wanted to kill , so it most Likely for any Muslim to go with what is Portrayed in John 7:25-41, the rest we throw them to the bin because we know Jesus can NEVER Blaspheme and neither was he a god who took everyone sins.
JAS said
And Dr. Ehrman reveals his intelligence even more by ducking questions about the Koran.
Go Ask Muslim Scholars About the Quran, why are you Seeking car spare parts from a Bakery? if you are looking for car spares you go the dealers or Agents that Particular car OR you go to a cars spares shop.
mzejum said
JAS said
And Dr. Ehrman reveals his intelligence even more by ducking questions about the Koran.
Go Ask Muslim Scholars About the Quran, why are you Seeking car spare parts from a Bakery? if you are looking for car spares you go the dealers or Agents that Particular car OR you go to a cars spares shop.
And in the same spirit, if I am looking for insights into the crucifixion of Jesus, or the core beliefs of Christianity, why would I seek them from mzejum? I would not.
Dr. Ehrman ducks questions about the Koran because that is not his area of expertise, and he knows that it is unwise to comment on something outside of his specialty, particularly for issues that are sensitive or controversial. That would be wise advice for you to consider.
JAS said
mzejum said
JAS said
And Dr. Ehrman reveals his intelligence even more by ducking questions about the Koran.
Go Ask Muslim Scholars About the Quran, why are you Seeking car spare parts from a Bakery? if you are looking for car spares you go the dealers or Agents that Particular car OR you go to a cars spares shop.
And in the same spirit, if I am looking for insights into the crucifixion of Jesus, or the core beliefs of Christianity, why would I seek them from mzejum? I would not.
Dr. Ehrman ducks questions about the Koran because that is not his area of expertise, and he knows that it is unwise to comment on something outside of his specialty, particularly for issues that are sensitive or controversial. That would be wise advice for you to consider.
The crucifixion, is an agenda adressed in both Qur’an and christianity, when Allah says jesus was not crucified but some one was, we have to look for that evidence and when we look into the bible we see the evidence is right there. He was not crucified and it even leads to who was crucified instead, Judas.
In regards to core beliefs, we have to prove that core beliefs of christianity are based on opinions of scribes, pastors and early church fathers to prove it was not the teachings and preachings of Jesus.
We find proof we post it, you can choose to agree with it or disagree.
I am not a scholar or an apologist by the way. Its just a part time thing for me.
Stephen said
One of the great ironies is that Prof Ehrman has a large fanbase among Muslims who cheer on discussions about the so-called “corruption” of the New Testament since it contradicts many of the claims about Jesus in the Quran. But these same folks suddenly bristle at the prospect of turning the critical textual apparatus on the Quran itself. Such work takes place however. More openly in the West, surreptitiously in Islamic countries (since it places the scholars in physical danger).
It can shown on textual grounds that the Quran cannot be the work of a single author. Aside from pre-Islamic sources being present in the text there is also the case of the inclusion of Persian loan words in parts of the text which would be totally anachronistic for Mohammad’s time.
Scholarship into the formation of the Quran is truly one of the more fascinating areas of studies I’ve come across. It’s a true puzzle with lots of interesting clues. It’s unfortunate that the topic cannot be discussed and debated in the full open.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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