Michael7 said
Studying the Bible intensely lead to my becoming an atheist. I also wondered about how I could have believed its claims so fervently when I was younger but the lack of exposure to alternate (liberal theology and atheist arguments) was certainly a big part of it. I would also throw life experience in to the mix as well. I know many people who were raised in a nominally Christian household who have never spent any serious time reading the bible or going to church who are aghast when I tell them I don’t believe in God. They don’t want to hear my reasons and seem to only believe in God because they fear death or some kind of punishment in this life or some bad turn of luck. But when I look at their lives (I know it’s judgmental) I don’t see them living any differently than someone who doesn’t believe. And I have come to see that those who don’t believe in the Bible are the ones who have really studied it and can expound on its contents far, far better than those who profess a belief in the Christian God but know very little about it other than what they have heard quoted in church, in the media or from what someone else has said.
Michael7 said
Studying the Bible intensely lead to my becoming an atheist. I also wondered about how I could have believed its claims so fervently when I was younger but the lack of exposure to alternate (liberal theology and atheist arguments) was certainly a big part of it. I would also throw life experience in to the mix as well. I know many people who were raised in a nominally Christian household who have never spent any serious time reading the bible or going to church who are aghast when I tell them I don’t believe in God. They don’t want to hear my reasons and seem to only believe in God because they fear death or some kind of punishment in this life or some bad turn of luck. But when I look at their lives (I know it’s judgmental) I don’t see them living any differently than someone who doesn’t believe. And I have come to see that those who don’t believe in the Bible are the ones who have really studied it and can expound on its contents far, far better than those who profess a belief in the Christian God but know very little about it other than what they have heard quoted in church, in the media or from what someone else has said.
Matthew 18:3; “Truly I tell you unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the Kingdom of God.” Am wondering if this is one of Jesus’ sayings that Dr. Ehrman believes Jesus actually said? It seems possible to me that it’s all beyond what our intellect can determine. However, as in Don Quixote, each of us can choose to live our lives based on our beliefs and become a part of the change we want to see in the world. The Bible is a guide for how to do that. Jesus was (is?) the way. (Just learned to underline but don’t know how to get rid of it afterward.
I can only speak for myself, but becoming like a child who chooses to believe in something that goes against reality is no longer something I can believe in or have child like faith for. I know many fervent believers take refuge in such sayings and others like it, “professing to be wise they became fools,” but for me at least the opposite is true. Believing in what is demonstrably and logically wrong doesn’t make me honorable, only gullible like ancient people who didn’t know any better. Again, this is how I feel for my own life. I can’t speak for others, nor would I want to.
Michael7 said
I can only speak for myself, but becoming like a child who chooses to believe in something that goes against reality is no longer something I can believe in or have child like faith for. I know many fervent believers take refuge in such sayings and others like it, “professing to be wise they became fools,” but for me at least the opposite is true. Believing in what is demonstrably and logically wrong doesn’t make me honorable, only gullible like ancient people who didn’t know any better. Again, this is how I feel for my own life. I can’t speak for others, nor would I want to.
Michael7 said
I can only speak for myself, but becoming like a child who chooses to believe in something that goes against reality is no longer something I can believe in or have child like faith for. I know many fervent believers take refuge in such sayings and others like it, “professing to be wise they became fools,” but for me at least the opposite is true. Believing in what is demonstrably and logically wrong doesn’t make me honorable, only gullible like ancient people who didn’t know any better. Again, this is how I feel for my own life. I can’t speak for others, nor would I want to.
Personally, living by Jesus’ sayings seems the only way. It allows me at times to be better than I would naturally be. And I see others striving to follow those teachings. Of course, it’s not for everyone. Just those of us who want to love others as we love ourselves.
We all have to live according to what works best for us. Christianity served its purpose for me at the time I needed it and it certainly does give some people a meaning to life or a standard to live by. Of course there are many believers who are sincere and find comfort in the bible and the Christian God. For me, I don’t believe there is only one way as far as belief is concerned. I also know many sincere and good Buddhists. In fact, I find some of the Buddhist teachings to be very helpful because, in my opinion they are more realistic and seek to deal with things as they are not as we want them to be. Working from there just makes more sense and there isn’t the guilt factor associated with Christianity.
Michael7 said
We all have to live according to what works best for us. Christianity served its purpose for me at the time I needed it and it certainly does give some people a meaning to life or a standard to live by. Of course there are many believers who are sincere and find comfort in the bible and the Christian God. For me, I don’t believe there is only one way as far as belief is concerned. I also know many sincere and good Buddhists. In fact, I find some of the Buddhist teachings to be very helpful because, in my opinion they are more realistic and seek to deal with things as they are not as we want them to be. Working from there just makes more sense and there isn’t the guilt factor associated with Christianity.
I could not agree more. In fact, the longer I remain a member of this wonderful blog, the more I find myself questioning whether I am a true Christian. But God is real to me and I love Jesus. I try to follow His teachings. I do not believe He rose from the dead or that His death took away my sins. So, am I still a Christian?
I would say not an orthodox one. lol. I don’t know if you’ve read James Tabor’s book The Jesus Dynasty but at the end he gives a summary of Jesus’ teachings (Tabor’s take on them, anyway) as reconstructed from the Q sources, the Gospel of Thomas, the prophets, minus the theological views attached to him in the gospels and by traditional viewpoints. If found it to be very nicely constructed and like its focus on doing good and loving god. You may want to check it out.
Michael7 said
I would say not an orthodox one. lol. I don’t know if you’ve read James Tabor’s book The Jesus Dynasty but at the end he gives a summary of Jesus’ teachings (Tabor’s take on them, anyway) as reconstructed from the Q sources, the Gospel of Thomas, the prophets, minus the theological views attached to him in the gospels and by traditional viewpoints. If found it to be very nicely constructed and like its focus on doing good and loving god. You may want to check it out.
Will read that book! Thanks.
Jimmy said
The question is why you except or reject the claims of Christianity ? I find the topic of Christianity and other religious claims fascinating . Critical examination of the text, and all arguments for or against them is good thing to understand. The main reason I do not believe is because the claims are not credible. I am an atheist and any claims of miracles, god ,sin and the like seem too incredible for me to believe them. Just because people/text make claims that is not enough evidenced to except them. To me, even if the accounts were written by eyewitnesses the next day I will not believe them unless there is extraordinary evidence for them. I know there are different reasons why different people except or reject Christianity ( Bart cites The problem of suffering as one of his reasons) what is your reason ?
Bart mentioned elsewhere how the problem of suffering led him away from his faith. Presumably, for instance, if there was a loving, caring, personal God who watches over us and has a plan for our lives, there wouldn’t be tragedies like three year old children dying of cancer. But this really isn’t evidence against God, just evidence against an omnibenevolent God (God may still exist, and just be malicious, indifferent, or impotent in the face of wanting to help us). And calling cancer evil is like calling polio evil. Polio is no longer the source of suffering it was because we found the vaccine. If God isn’t only thought of as a parent, but also a teacher who’s viewpoint is not just the individual’s suffering, but also to give the human race a sense of itself of identity, accomplishment and overcoming, the problem of suffering vanishes. What would we be as a historical people if not for adversity? The core of humanity is in flourishing in the face of adversity. Maybe one day we will terraform the planet, cure disease, and conquer death. God as a “teacher” fits in the portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel of John as “rabbi,” which means “teacher.” And even if you don’t agree with this, Christians I know (I’m an atheist) believe in justice in the next life, not in this life.
john76 said
Bart mentioned elsewhere how the problem of suffering led him away from his faith. Presumably, for instance, if there was a loving, caring, personal God who watches over us and has a plan for our lives, there wouldn’t be tragedies like three year old children dying of cancer. But this really isn’t evidence against God, just evidence against an omnibenevolent God (God may still exist, and just be malicious, indifferent, or impotent in the face of wanting to help us). And calling cancer evil is like calling polio evil. Polio is no longer the source of suffering it was because we found the vaccine. If God isn’t only thought of as a parent, but also a teacher who’s viewpoint is not just the individual’s suffering, but also to give the human race a sense of itself of identity, accomplishment and overcoming, the problem of suffering vanishes. What would we be as a historical people if not for adversity? The core of humanity is in flourishing in the face of adversity. Maybe one day we will terraform the planet, cure disease, and conquer death. God as a “teacher” fits in the portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel of John as “rabbi,” which means “teacher.” And even if you don’t agree with this, Christians I know (I’m an atheist) believe in justice in the next life, not in this life.
On the other hand, the atheist in me doesn’t know why people defend God. It’s the whole “God is to thank for everything, but blame for nothing.” I’m agnostic, but my thoughts on God are that if I was a prosecutor of the divine, I would prosecute God for “depraved indifference” to human life. In United States law, depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder, is an action where a defendant acts with a “depraved indifference” to human life and where such act results in a death. In a depraved-heart murder, defendants commit an act even though they know their act runs an unusually high risk of causing death or serious bodily harm to someone else. If the risk of death or bodily harm is great enough, ignoring it demonstrates a “depraved indifference” to human life and the resulting death is considered to have been committed with malice aforethought. The example that comes to mind for me is God creating a world with earthquakes, which have killed millions over our history. On the average about 10,000 people die each year as a result of earthquakes. God could have easily created our world without earthquakes.
There simply isn’t sufficient evidence for the God of the bible, or any other I’ve heard suggested. God as a concept doesn’t seem to have any explanatory power that could answer as-until-now unanswered questions about our reality.
My first serious seeds of doubt were planted in a biblical exegesis class in high school. Clearly the “word of God” had some help. I did find the subject interesting but haven’t really got back to it since more recent years.
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