God’s being reborn and resurrected.
Many stories feature a god who dies and often returns to life (Near Eastern Mythologies)
The anthropologist Sir James Frazer compared these dying god mythgs in his multi-volume work The Golden Bough
– Osiris
– Tammuz
– Adonis
– Dionysos
– Jesus
Frazer attempted to define the shared elements of religious belief and scientific thought, discussing fertility rites, human sacrifice, the dying god, the scapegoat, and many other symbols and practices whose influences had extended into 20th-century culture.[2] His thesis is that the most ancient religions were fertility cults that revolved around the worship and periodic sacrifice of a sacred king in accordance with the cycle of the seasons. Frazer proposed that mankind’s understanding of the natural world progresses from magic through religious belief to scientific thought.
Mythicism and Richard Carrier are indebted to The Golden Bough?
Is Vridar’s table accurate?
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What did Carrier say that wasn’t already said by Frazer?
Not much. That’s exactly the problem. Mythicists have an astounding willingness to speak across entire fields of scholarly inquiry without seemingly being aware of the current thinking in them. Frazer is an example of a certain flavor of scholar whose heyday was in the early decades of the twentieth century. (Yes that’s right folks, a hundred frigging years ago.) This was the high age of Comparative Religion, an effort to examine Christianity in the context of the larger ancient world. A noble effort. However looking back what becomes clear is that they were still viewing these other ancient cultures through a mostly Christian lens. And of course when you do that these other traditions are going to wind up looking a lot like Christianity.
This is where the concept of Mediterranean Dying and Rising Gods originated. Yep, Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, Dionysus, Jesus! But in looking at these divine figures through a Jesus lens the inevitable happened. The effort among scholars, especially since WWII, has been to try to see these other ancient cultures on their own terms. And if you do that you begin to see that for the most part these traditions are very different from both Christianity and each other. Paradoxically perhaps, the comparative religion project then becomes interesting!
The short version is the concept of Mediterranean Dying and Rising Gods is no longer taken very seriously, except of course among Mythicists. One scholar, no longer with us sadly, who wrote about and extensively critiqued these ideas, was Jonathon Z Smith. Fortunately he left several books of essays which are attainable at reasonable prices. If anyone is interested see –
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Why are you knocking syncretism?
Christianity definitely could have pulled in Mediterranean dying and rising saviors.
Who is knocking syncretism? Have you read Jonathon Smith? It’s the concept of Mediterranean Dying and Rising Gods itself that is being critiqued. If you actually look at the source material the less and less these other divinities look like Jesus. For example, Osiris died and was made King of the Underworld.
See also the work of Kurt Rudolph and Gerald O’Collins.
MD&RGs is a concept like the Alpha Male and Right/Left brain lateralization that have been discarded in actual scholarly thinking but still haunt popular discourse. It helps to keep up with a field of inquiry before you make pronouncements about it. Steefen, I’m not special. I just pay attention. Then, I had good teachers.
Stephen
It’s the concept of Mediterranean Dying and Rising Gods itself that is being critiqued. If you actually look at the source material the less and less these other divinities look like Jesus. For example, Osiris died and was made King of the Underworld.
Steefen
Very carefully, they began to sew Osiris’s body back together. They worked together night after night. When the body was whole once again, they wrapped it head to toe in strips of linen, creating a mummy. On the night of the full moon, Isis used powerful magic to bring her husband back to life. – Albany Institute of History and Art
You left out the part of Osiris coming back to life.
Osiris was not only ruler of the dead but also the power that granted all life from the underworld, from sprouting vegetation to the annual flood of the Nile River. From about 2000 BCE onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death. This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the next world and through one’s descendants on Earth. In this universalized form Osiris’s cult spread throughout Egypt, often joining with the cults of local fertility and underworld deities.
– Britannica, online reference tools and encyclopedia search engine
The most complete ancient work in existence of the myth of Osiris which we know is that of Plutarch, in his ‘De Iside et Osiride’ [1] . We know the stratagem used by Seth and his associates, and we know how the conspirator, having locked Osiris precisely by guile in a chest made to his measurements, threw it into the sea, an episode which Plutarch is the only one to relate [2], began the mourning and the quest of Isis. Then (Isis and Osiris, 14-18) who returned to Byblos to look for the chest containing her spouse’s body.
Having been grounded on the beach, he had been enveloped by a bush (tamarisk or erica) become a tree so marvellous that the king, dazzled by its beauty, had made a column for his palace of it. After many adventures, the goddess finally recovered the body, embraced it and lamented over it. Then, wanting to go with her son Horus, she deposited the chest in a place distant from the Delta. It is there that Seth found it, “one night when he hunted with his pack to the moonlight” and cut him into fourteen pieces which he dispersed in the swamps (Isis and Osiris, 18). Isis then undertook a new quest and, recovering the pieces of the body of Osiris one by one, buries them in the different cities of Egypt.
The narrative of Plutarch thus comprises the following elements:
*The “first death”, inferred, since Osiris is locked alive in the chest then thrown into water, from where the conclusion, commonly supposed, is that he had died by drowning. [6]
*The first collection of Isis, as far as Byblos, in search of the body.
*The “second death” of Osiris, cut in pieces by his brother Seth, pieces once again thrown into the Nile.
*The second quest of Isis in which she collects the pieces of her spouse’s body and buries them separately or together, according to tradition (Isis and Osiris, 20-21).,/I>
Along the way, “from a posthumous union of Osiris with Isis, was born a child come before term and weak in the lower members, Harpocrates “ (Isis and Osiris, 19), without knowing the precise moment that the birth took place, nor what the relationship is between this young Harpocrate (“Horus the child”) and the small Horus “raised in nearby Buto” of where Isis had gone, abandoning the chest, that fatal night when Seth discovered the corpse.
[1] Quoted translation in the article by B. MATHIEU, in the present number.
[2] See the article by B. MATHIEU.
[3] III, 19-5. J. VANDIER, Le papyrus Jumilhac, Paris, 1961, p.136-137.
[4] See J.-Cl. GOYON, “Momification et recomposition du corps divin : Anubis et les canopes” (“Mummification and recomposition of the divine body: Anubis and the canopics”), Funerary Symbols and religion, Essays dedicated to Professor M.S.H.G. Heermavan Voss, Kampen, 1988, p.34-44. On the pieces of the body of Osiris and the relics preserved in the different sacred places, see H. BEINLICH, Die ‘ Osirisreliquien’, ÀgA¹ 42,1984.
[5] See the reflections of B. MATHIEU, in the present number, on the length of the reign of Osiris.
[6] The belief to the drowning of Osiris rests on the sense of the verb mhj. It has been discussed by P. VERNUS, “Le Mythe d’un mythe : la prétendue noyade d’Osiris. – De la dérive d’un corps à la dérive du sens” (“The Myth of a myth, : the supposed drowning of Osiris. – Of the drift of a body in a directional sense”), Studi di egittologia e di Antichità funiche (Univ. of Bologna) 9,1991, p.19-34. According to him, it doesn’t mean “to drown (himself)”, but “to bathe, immersed”, then “to dive, to drift”.
-Osirisnet, online Egyptology site curated by scholar Thierry Benderitter, Member of the International Association of Egyptologists (IAE).
Chat GPT:
Osiris’s wife, Isis, along with her sister Nephthys, searched for and reassembled his body. With the help of the god Anubis, they mummified him, and Isis, using her magical powers, temporarily revived Osiris long enough to conceive their son, Horus.
After this act, Osiris did not return to the land of the living. Instead, he became the god of the underworld and the judge of the dead. His death and subsequent transformation into the ruler of the afterlife symbolize the eternal cycle of life, death, and rebirth in Egyptian religion.
Steefen:
Isis, using her magical powers, temporarily revived Osiris long enough to conceive their son, Horus.
Jesus was temporarily revived long enough to spend 40 days on Earth.
Jesus did not stay in the land of the living.
Again, Osiris was revived. A living Osiris helped conceive Horus.
You left out the part about Isis using her magical powers to bring Osiris back to life
bring Osiris back to life
to conceive a son.
The oldest known depiction of Osiris dates to approximately 2300 BCE.
The Book of the Dead can date to 1550 BCE.
Plutarch is 46 CE to 120 CE.
You, Stephen, brought up Plutarch.
The Book of the Dead may be considered a primary source.
I do not consider a non-Ancient Egyptian a credible primary ssource in this case.
The earliest mentions of the Osiris myth are in the Pyramid Texts, the first Egyptian funerary texts, which appeared on the walls of burial chambers in pyramids at the end of the Fifth Dynasty, during the 24th century BCE.
How many centuries are you skipping over to grasp for a White male to give primary credence to Osiris?
…to grasp for a White male to give primary credence to Osiris?
Yeah that must be it.
Steefen my friend I can see that further argument with you on this is pretty useless. The fact you don’t grasp the importance of Plutarch tells me all I need to know. But on the off chance there might be somebody out there who sincerely wishes to find out about this stuff from real experts who seldom if ever appear on YouTube, allow me-
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I’ve been hip deep in the ANE for a while so I still have the older Faulkner translation but this second edition of James P Allen’s translation and commentary from 2015 is the way to go. Pricey, alas, but you can look around for a used copy or just go to the library.
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Faulkner’s classic doesn’t seem to have been superseded. Folks this is what you would get assigned if you were studying Egyptology in a university. Consequently, pricey. But this is a critical translation and commentary.
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Folks there are various inexpensive paperback versions of this one but if you can possibly swing it get a copy of the large format hardback version. The scans of the original papyrus are stunning and gorgeous. Beautiful to gaze upon.
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There are cheaper versions of Frank Cole Babbit’s translation available but think how impressed your friends will be when you whip out a volume from the Loeb Library!
Here’s a newer online translation of part of Plutarch’s text.
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Folks if you find all this heavy going and want a useful introduction to Egyptian concepts of the afterlife see the work of scholar Erik Hornung.
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The waters are deep. Enjoy the swim. But don’t make these folks say what they didn’t say. Let the ancient dead speak! Through the power of the active imagination their words come alive in your mind and you are transformed. The only resurrection possible.
Steefen you just don’t get it. So let me explain it as clearly and briefly as I can.
No one has claimed that Plutarch was the earliest and exclusive source for the Osiris myth. The problem is that the earlier Egyptian sources are in many cases fragmentary and contradictory. What’s more they are funerary texts, part of liturgies and magical utterances, addressed both by and to Osiris as Lord of the Underworld. Meaning that they assume an already existing body of knowledge they do not feel the need to explicate.
The importance of Plutarch is that his account is the only comprehensive and complete description of the entire myth that survives from the ancient world, which he claims he got from Egyptian sources in his travels.
Sorry if Plutarch’s ethnicity discombobulates you so much but it’s what we have.
I am not using Plutarch for the Osiris myth.
The Moralia (Latin for “Morals”, “Customs” or Mores”; Greek: Ἠθικά, Ethiká) is a group of manuscripts written in Ancient Greek dating from the 10th–13th centuries but traditionally ascribed to the 1st-century scholar Plutarch of Chaeronea.
Written during the 10th – 13th centuries.
Written during the 10th – 13th centuries.
This gets worse every time you bring this up.
Stop. Stop your explaining just for you to make a case that Isis did not momentarily bring Osiris to life.
I will add to what I’m using:
Many temples dedicated to Osiris or related deities (like the Temple of Horus at Edfu or the Temple of Hathor at Dendera) contain hieroglyphic inscriptions that refer to episodes of the Osiris myth.
I used Plutarch’s writing about Julius Caesar from Penguin’s: Fall of the Roman Republic translated by Rex Warner.
I used Plutarch’s writing about Cato the Younger from Penguin’s Rome in Crisis translated by Kilvert and Pelling.
Plutarch appears six times in my Bibliography and you presume to override my editorial decision to reject Plutarch’s faulty composition on Osiris and Isis.
How many temples along the Nile River did Plutarch visit AND translate how many temple inscriptions?
How many Books of the Dead did he translate?
How great was his writings on the evolution of Osiris to Serapis?
He is a primary source and you say he got his information second hand from an Egyptian priest?
That’s not primary.
= = =
There were NO Temples to Osiris in Ancient Rome. So Plutarch is out.
Did his Egyptian priest tell him to go to Egypt to look at temple inscriptions and other inscriptions?
Was Plutarch part of the congregation of the Temple of Isis?
Was Plutarch part of the congregation of Seaplis in Alexandria?
How much time did Plutarch spend in Alexandria?
Where did he meet this Egyptian priest you mentioned? He was a priest where? At the Temple of Isis? At the Temple of Serapis?
There were no Temple of Osiris in Rome.
There were Temples to Osiris in ancient Egypt.
There were no Temples to Osiris in Ancient Greece, either.
While Osiris was part of the Egyptian religious influence in Athens, primarily through the worship of Isis and Serapis, there were no temples dedicated exclusively to Osiris in Ancient Athens. His veneration was part of a broader Greco-Egyptian religious context rather than a singular cult focused on him alone.
Important Temples and Sacred Sites Dedicated to Osiris:
1. Abydos (Temple of Osiris at Abydos)
Abydos was the most important cult center for Osiris. The Temple of Osiris at Abydos became one of the holiest places in Egypt. Ancient Egyptians believed that Osiris was buried at Abydos, and they made pilgrimages to this site to honor him. The annual festival of Osiris, which reenacted his death and resurrection, was held here.
The Osireion, located at the rear of the Temple of Seti I at Abydos, was a symbolic tomb of Osiris, emphasizing his role as the lord of the underworld.
2. Philae (Temple of Isis and Osiris)
While the Temple of Philae is primarily dedicated to Isis, it also includes shrines and chapels devoted to Osiris. The triad of Isis, Osiris, and their son Horus was worshipped together at this site, and Osiris was integral to the religious activities carried out here.
3. Dendera (Temple of Hathor)
The Temple of Hathor at Dendera has a chapel dedicated to Osiris. Though this temple primarily honors Hathor, the Osiris chapel within it contains reliefs and decorations that depict Osiris in his role as the god of the afterlife. Rituals celebrating his death and rebirth were performed there.
4. Edfu (Temple of Horus)
The Temple of Horus at Edfu, one of the best-preserved temples in Egypt, is associated with the story of Osiris, as Horus is Osiris’s son. Reliefs within the temple recount the myth of Horus avenging his father’s death and fighting against Set, making it a site connected to the Osirian myth.
5. Busiris (Abu Sir)
Busiris, a town in the Nile Delta, was another major center for the worship of Osiris. In ancient texts, it was often referred to as the city of Osiris, though its archaeological remains are less extensive than those at Abydos.
I disagree with you on this and you have failed to persuade me.
Plutarch’s essay on Osiris is not important to me, especially 1) when it comes to whether or not Isis temporarily brought him back to life and 2) since the great museums with Egyptian wings or Egyptian museums can compile what they have found from primary sources.
What is known about the Egyptian priest who helped Plutarch write about Osiris?
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
Plutarch, the Greek historian and philosopher, wrote about Osiris in his treatise “On Isis and Osiris” (part of his work Moralia). While he provides detailed insights into Egyptian religion, including the Osiris myth, he never explicitly names an individual Egyptian priest as his source. However, it is widely believed that Plutarch must have drawn on the knowledge of Egyptian priests and possibly other learned Egyptians to gather accurate information about the complex religious system.
What We Know About Plutarch’s Sources:
Plutarch’s Acknowledgment of Egyptian Priests:
In On Isis and Osiris, Plutarch mentions that much of his understanding of Egyptian religion comes from Egyptian priests and their interpretations of sacred mysteries. Though he doesn’t name a specific priest, he implies that his knowledge was enriched by those well-versed in Egyptian religious traditions.
Plutarch refers to Egyptian traditions with a combination of admiration and skepticism, indicating that he was interested in both the spiritual and allegorical interpretations of the myths, often engaging with Egyptian priests who would have been familiar with these deeper meanings.
Access to Priestly Knowledge:
By the time Plutarch wrote On Isis and Osiris in the 1st century CE, Egypt was under Roman rule, and there was a high level of cultural interaction between Egypt and the Greco-Roman world. The priesthood of Egyptian temples, particularly those devoted to Isis and Osiris, were still active and maintained traditional knowledge. Priests would have been key custodians of the religious texts and oral traditions that preserved the Osirian myth.
The Priestly Tradition and Esoteric Knowledge:
The Egyptian priests were known to preserve secret or esoteric knowledge, especially when it came to the mysteries of life, death, and the afterlife, all of which were central to the Osiris myth. Plutarch himself mentions in his work that some aspects of the mythology were regarded as mysteries revealed only to the initiated.
Egyptian priests had extensive training in religious and philosophical thought. Their knowledge was transmitted orally as well as through temple inscriptions and sacred texts, such as the Pyramid Texts and Coffin Texts, which recorded the mythological and theological underpinnings of Osiris’s role in the afterlife.
Egyptian Influence on Hellenistic Thought:
Egyptian priests were involved in the exchange of religious and philosophical ideas with Greek scholars, especially in the Hellenistic period. The famous Egyptian city of Alexandria, home to the Library of Alexandria, was a melting pot of Greek and Egyptian learning. Although Plutarch himself was not Alexandrian, it’s likely that his contact with Egyptian priests occurred in similar cultural contexts, perhaps during his travels to Egypt or through networks of Egyptian scholars living in the broader Roman Empire.
Plutarch’s Approach to Egyptian Religion:
Plutarch approached Egyptian religion not merely as a historian but also as a philosopher. He was particularly interested in allegorical interpretations of the myths, especially in how the Osiris and Isis myth might represent philosophical truths about the soul, morality, and the cosmos. This perspective aligned with how Egyptian priests themselves often approached their religion, seeing the myths as containing deeper metaphysical truths.
Conclusion:
While we don’t have a specific name or detailed account of the Egyptian priest (or priests) who helped Plutarch, it’s clear that his work was heavily influenced by the knowledge of the Egyptian priesthood. These priests were custodians of the Osirian tradition and conveyed both the literal and allegorical aspects of the myth to scholars like Plutarch, whose writings became key sources for understanding Egyptian religion in the ancient world.
When was Abydos active as a center for Osiris
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
Abydos, one of the most ancient and sacred cities in Egypt, was active as a center for the worship of Osiris from the Old Kingdom (c. 2686–2181 BCE) through the Ptolemaic period (c. 332–30 BCE) and even into the Roman period. Its significance as a major religious site persisted for over 2,000 years.
Key Periods of Activity at Abydos:
1. Old Kingdom (c. 2686–2181 BCE):
Abydos initially rose to prominence during the Old Kingdom as an important burial site for Egypt’s earliest kings. By this time, Osiris was already associated with kingship and the afterlife, although his role as a central deity in the Egyptian pantheon was still developing.
Early Dynastic Period kings (before the Old Kingdom) were buried in Abydos, and the site was associated with royal necropolises. The association of the dead kings with Osiris, who would become the god of the dead, likely contributed to the city’s sacred status.
2. First Intermediate Period and Middle Kingdom (c. 2181–1782 BCE):
During the First Intermediate Period and into the Middle Kingdom, Osiris fully emerged as the god of the dead and the afterlife, taking on the central role in Egyptian funerary beliefs.
Abydos became the preeminent cult center for Osiris, especially in the Middle Kingdom. Pilgrimages to Abydos were made by Egyptians from all walks of life, as it was believed to be the burial site of Osiris himself. Pharaohs, nobles, and commoners built cenotaphs (symbolic tombs) at Abydos, hoping to partake in the god’s resurrection.
The annual Festival of Osiris, which re-enacted Osiris’ death and resurrection, was an important religious event. This festival involved processions and public rituals, attracting pilgrims from across Egypt.
3. New Kingdom (c. 1550–1070 BCE):
Abydos remained a major religious center during the New Kingdom, a period marked by large-scale temple building and extensive state sponsorship of religious cults.
Seti I (r. c. 1290–1279 BCE) built a grand temple dedicated to Osiris, which became one of the most important religious structures in Egypt. Behind the Temple of Seti I is the Osireion, a symbolic tomb of Osiris. This structure emphasized the city’s association with the god’s burial.
The Temple of Ramses II (Seti I’s son) also contributed to Abydos’s stature during the New Kingdom.
4. Late Period and Ptolemaic Period (c. 664–30 BCE):
Even during the Late Period and Ptolemaic period, Abydos continued to be an important religious center for the worship of Osiris. The veneration of Osiris persisted, though the religious focus in Egypt began to shift toward other cults, including the Isis and Serapis cults, which spread throughout the Mediterranean world.
Pilgrims from across Egypt still visited Abydos to honor Osiris and seek blessings, especially related to the afterlife and rebirth.
5. Roman Period (c. 30 BCE–4th century CE):
During the Roman occupation of Egypt, Abydos remained a site of religious significance, although Osiris worship gradually waned with the rise of Christianity in the later centuries.
The Roman emperors, particularly in the earlier phases of their rule, maintained respect for Egyptian religious traditions, and Abydos would still have been active as a cult center for Osiris.
Abydos’ Role in Egyptian Religion:
Throughout these periods, Abydos was the most important cult center for Osiris. It was believed to house his tomb or at least serve as a symbolic location of his burial. The annual festivals held there were central to the religious calendar, and it was a key pilgrimage site where Egyptians came to participate in rituals associated with death and rebirth, securing their connection to Osiris in hopes of a favorable afterlife.
In summary, Abydos was active as a center for the worship of Osiris from at least the Old Kingdom (c. 2686 BCE) until the Roman period (into the 4th century CE), with its peak as a religious hub occurring in the Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom.
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