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Are Paul, Cephas/Peter, James & John Fictional Characters?
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Robert
7063 Posts
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March 1, 2023 - 12:00 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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March 1, 2023 - 12:48 pm

The last time I wrote some code, it turned out that international calls were free over the weekend. I don’t know what’s the problem of running the patch with the code for everyone but apparently it has to be.
It seems that ἀναγκάζω is translated once to compell, once to force and once to made somebody. One universal word (G315). As in Polish – to force. I don’t think nuance in English matters.

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Jarek

936 Posts
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March 1, 2023 - 1:21 pm

From philological research around the gospel of Mark, I have picked up the following. Marek is a consistent admirer of colloquial dialect with intentional errors. At the same time, he is an absolute master of literary composition. So I will draw two conclusions.
Marek wrote a fascinating story because that was his task. Marek gave his story a noble patina, suggesting the colloquial, simple language used, that the document is older and comes from the times of … Marek. It was written by someone with the strange Jewish manner of adding kai at the beginning of a sentence. And the lament over the Temple is to convince the reader that it really is an old document. All in all, simple tricks and effective at the same time. A product prepared in this way can be safely sold as the first gospel

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Porphyry

1834 Posts
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March 1, 2023 - 1:34 pm

“I suspect many of the early pagan converts to ‘Christianity’ were drawn from among these God-fearers.”

Do you think we could place the author of Mark among them, or at least, place him in a community originally formed around them (Mark is late enough he may have been a second-generation Christian)?

Do you think these were the gentiles that Paul principally drew his converts from?

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Stephen
4489 Posts
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March 1, 2023 - 2:35 pm

Robert said:

I manually add the HTML codes. But, not to worry, you are not compelled to do so. If anyone is telling you now that you should or must use HTML codes, just tell them that Stephen never has from the beginning, even when it was much easier to do so. Even when everyone else was using the HTML codes automatically, no one ever compelled Stephen to do so. No one even expected him to do so. No one even brought up the issue.

Well there’s a first time for everything. Ha!

Actually I’m such an elitist and feel so full of entitlement that it offends my sensibilities to have to do it manually.

The recipients of his first letter to the Corinthians seems to have included some intellectual types, but they were not in the majority (cf 1,26).

Demonstrated by the fact that somebody in the community can read and write letters. Unfortunately friends the timeframe here, the first couple decades of the existence of the Jesus movement is what we know the least about. We can imagine how we think it might have happened but our facts are sparse. There does appear to be a pre-Pauline mission to the gentiles. Some of these early communities outside of Palestine appear to consist of both Jewish and gentile converts. Paul’s innovation seems to be that gentile converts do not need to be Torah observant to be part of the movement.

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Robert
7063 Posts
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66
March 1, 2023 - 2:40 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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March 1, 2023 - 4:49 pm

Fortran was my first experience in the first year of the Faculty of Electronics. Punched cards for the first couple of months, then terminals for the George III system on a mainframe called ODRA 1305. That was a great time, 1984 – I can’t remember it, but I’ll never forget it!

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Robert
7063 Posts
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March 1, 2023 - 5:44 pm
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Robert
7063 Posts
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March 2, 2023 - 2:29 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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March 15, 2023 - 8:49 am

Gal 2 is devoted to the Council of Jerusalem, for a few reasons. First – to obtain confirmation of the correctness of Paul’s gospel and to conform exclussive rights to the uncircumcised market. Second to place Paul’s competitors in a invented for this purpose construct called circumcised Christianity. Third – to spread mere insinuations, some anxiety, about false brothers, about cicrcumcision party, James and Cephas. Nothing proves better the cunning of the author than Gal 2. A brilliant trick – he saw that his hero had no chance in a clash with other heroic figures – disciples and brother of Jesus, so he organized their joint meeting, later called the Council of Jerusalem.
The theme of the Council is developed by Luke in Acts 15, and you can see the complete dependence of his bizarre account on Gal 2. What is the difference between Gal 2 and Acts 15? The characters’ views are synchronized – Peter talks like Paul and Paul talks like Peter. And James has nothing to do with cicrcumcision party. Nice touch.
But not so right. Luke writing about the circumcision of Timothy in Acts 16:3 writes complete nonsense.
“Because there were some Jews who knew his father was Greek.” A complete aberration and a problem turned on its head. If Timothy tried and convinced the Jews that he respects Jewish laws and customs, that he limited contacts with his family and friends or relatives and adapted those contacts to halacha, only then someone would honor him and circumcise him. And anyway, some Jews would not recognize this fact and for them he would still be a gentile, only without the foreskin. Others, more open, would like to repeat the circumcision (a drop of blood), but they would not allow him to marry their daughters. Others would accept, and he could become their son-in-law. In the end there would be those who would say “You got circumcised? For what?”
This whole situation is fictional. Paul met with the pillars to show that his gospel was accepted by them unlike his flock which remained unclean. Why did he meet? Because he is in a lost position – there are direct witnesses, companions and the Lord’s brother. And he’s just a big mouthed guy after the epiphany.
Thanks to the meeting, he could say that he got what he wanted and claimed victory. Denying the figures of Cephas and James would be counter-effective because they already functioned in the religious imagination. So he got them into some nonsensical made-up Christianity so different from what he was offering. This Christianity lives only in him and in Luke, who later synchronizes our heroes in Acts.

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Robert
7063 Posts
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March 15, 2023 - 9:52 am
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Stephen
4489 Posts
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March 15, 2023 - 3:56 pm

I have zero interest in Jarek’s mythicist fantasies but the so-called “Jerusalem Council” is endlessly fascinating. So I started a sperate thread.

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Jarek

936 Posts
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March 15, 2023 - 4:53 pm

Yes please. As if you could connect the threads. I thought about it and opened a new topic unnecessarily.

Some sects in Galilee or Judea may have existed. No one knows what the ethnic composition of these groups was. But these are not the groups described by Paul and Luke. This is purely a literary construct. Circumcision and Hellenistic communities lived together for hundreds of years in North Africa and the cities of the Levant. There were ethnically and culturally mixed groups and there were separatists.
Neither James nor Matthew mentions the word circumcision once. Mateusz sets himself up against Paul’s position because that’s the only thing he’s interested in.
He defends the Law, he defends the Prophets against Paul, but also against the Jews.
Radio Mary was founded by Father Rydzyk and after 2 years Radio Joseph appeared, founded by the Episcopate. What Rydzyk was saying all the time until the competitor fell – Don’t listen to them. They’re not Catholic.

This is the key to understanding the Council of Jerusalem

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Robert
7063 Posts
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March 15, 2023 - 5:47 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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March 15, 2023 - 6:34 pm

I’m glad you’re happy, but you’re skipping important questions. Who and when converted them? There were many groups that practiced and still practice circumcision in North Africa. Did these groups reject the uncircumcised or were they culturally closed? Circumcision to this day is common to Christians, Jews and Muslims living there. There is no single answer here. And in Gal 2 the world is black and white. They want to enslave you again, and I defend you. Luke turns the tables – Paul circumcises Timothy to please his competitors. Peter and James – Circumcision of the Greeks ? Eh, let’s give it up. It is not necessary. Paul says Jesus overthrew the law, Matthew says Jesus fulfilled the law. This is how they define their position. This is the strategy and logic of competing competitors in the same market.
Donald Trump was the first president who agreed to deploy a US Army contingent in Poland. But the war broke out under Binden’s presidency. And what is Trump saying today. He positions himself against Binden, contrary to his previous policy.

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Robert
7063 Posts
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76
March 15, 2023 - 6:53 pm
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