How do we know when Paul died, and therefore, when he stopped writing?
I’ve seen it argued that he died between the fire of Rome (64) and the death of Nero (68) — I presume the assumption is that he was killed in Nero’s persecution.
But do we even have reliable evidence that he was killed, let alone killed in Rome under Nero during Nero’s persecution of christians?
If we take early christian stories seriously–which I wouldn’t do blindly, but that seems to be the only reason to think he was martyred in Rome–, we have early authors saying (or at least implying) he made it to Spain as planned.
It seems like we date things by reference to Paul all the time, but do we actually have a good idea for when he was writing?
Porphyry said
How do we know when Paul died, and therefore, when he stopped writing?I’ve seen it argued that he died between the fire of Rome (64) and the death of Nero (68) — I presume the assumption is that he was killed in Nero’s persecution.
But do we even have reliable evidence that he was killed, let alone killed in Rome under Nero during Nero’s persecution of christians?
If we take early christian stories seriously–which I wouldn’t do blindly, but that seems to be the only reason to think he was martyred in Rome–, we have early authors saying (or at least implying) he made it to Spain as planned.
It seems like we date things by reference to Paul all the time, but do we actually have a good idea for when he was writing?
Heroes like Paul never die. Don’t trust made up stories.
There are hints at the end of Acts and in the Didache and a couple other places of knowledge of Paul’s fate but who knows? I’ve always been sympathetic to the idea that Paul simply disappeared into the wilds of the west. What I always wondered about was how completely Peter disappears. Even the two letters supposedly written by him are in fact heavily Pauline in theology. It’s entirely possible Peter went back to Galilee after the crucifixion where he lived out his span and died as an old man.
Stephen said
There are hints at the end of Acts and in the Didache and a couple other places of knowledge of Paul’s fate but who knows? I’ve always been sympathetic to the idea that Paul simply disappeared into the wilds of the west. What I always wondered about was how completely Peter disappears. Even the two letters supposedly written by him are in fact heavily Pauline in theology. It’s entirely possible Peter went back to Galilee after the crucifixion where he lived out his span and died as an old man.
The thing about Peter is that we know from Paul he continued to be active in the early Church; he was one of the pillars, and Paul places him in Antioch and Jerusalem. So I don’t think retiring to a quiet private life in Galilee after the crucifixion is likely.
Porphyry said
Stephen said
There are hints at the end of Acts and in the Didache and a couple other places of knowledge of Paul’s fate but who knows? I’ve always been sympathetic to the idea that Paul simply disappeared into the wilds of the west. What I always wondered about was how completely Peter disappears. Even the two letters supposedly written by him are in fact heavily Pauline in theology. It’s entirely possible Peter went back to Galilee after the crucifixion where he lived out his span and died as an old man.
The thing about Peter is that we know from Paul he continued to be active in the early Church; he was one of the pillars, and Paul places him in Antioch and Jerusalem. So I don’t think retiring to a quiet private life in Galilee after the crucifixion is likely.
It is possible that many members of the Jerusalem congregation died in Jerusalem during the Roman siege.
Some of them may have died before it at the hands of their fellow Jews like James and Stephen.
Papias apparently claimed that was the fate of John — death at the hands of his fellow Jews, presumably in Jerusalem.
Some were take as Roman slaves after the fall of the city, too.
The thing about Peter is that we know from Paul he continued to be active in the early Church; he was one of the pillars, and Paul places him in Antioch and Jerusalem. So I don’t think retiring to a quiet private life in Galilee after the crucifixion is likely.
Well after the major contretemps recorded in Galatians Peter drops out of the historical record. (When we can check Acts against the historical record it is mistaken. It’s not an unreasonable extrapolation that even when we can’t check it is mistaken as well.) I suppose if I have a point it’s simply that we have no hard and fast evidence that either Peter or Paul was actually martyred. I like to imagine Paul being carried off by uncomprehending cannibals in the west and Peter on his deathbed still boring the crap out of his relatives with stories about the old days.
It is possible that many members of the Jerusalem congregation died in Jerusalem during the Roman siege.
That’s entirely possible. The legend of the so-called ** you do not have permission to see this link ** may have originated as a way to establish a lost link between the early Jerusalem community and the later gentile church. Many scholars think that’s what Acts is attempting to do. When I get my time machine, after I go back and prevent the murders of John Lennon and Bruno Schulz there’ll be a lot of ancient mysteries to solve.
Robert said
Stephen said
… When I get my time machine, after I go back and prevent the murders of John Lennon and Bruno Schulz there’ll be a lot of ancient mysteries to solve.
So, are you going to kill Hitler as a baby and prevent the whole Holocaust, or just save Bruno Schulz as an individual? How will you make sure that you do not so drastically alter the timeline such that you yourself are never born to go back in time in the first place? And if you’re never born and thus unable to go back in time thus preventing you’re own birth, then will you in fact be born? Being a devotee of science fiction, you’ve surely thought this out, right? Multiple parallel universes, I suppose?
Death of Peter.
John 21 says Jesus told Peter he would stretch out his hands and be dressed and led to where he did not want to go, foreshadowing how Peter would die to glorify god.
What does this mean?
When, where and how did Peter meet his maker?
Apparently crucifixion, if there is any historicity behind this manner of death for Pete.
Did he try to flee Jerusalem during the siege, resulting in Roman capture and crucifixion, a fate many fleeing residents are said to have suffered?
Was he crucified in Rome?
I don’t buy his inverse crucifixion in The Acts of Peter.
What does it mean that they dressed him?
Thoughts?
Robert said
Stephen said
… When I get my time machine, after I go back and prevent the murders of John Lennon and Bruno Schulz there’ll be a lot of ancient mysteries to solve.
So, are you going to kill Hitler as a baby and prevent the whole Holocaust, or just save Bruno Schulz as an individual? How will you make sure that you do not so drastically alter the timeline such that you yourself are never born to go back in time in the first place? And if you’re never born and thus unable to go back in time thus preventing you’re own birth, then will you in fact be born? Being a devotee of science fiction, you’ve surely thought this out, right? Multiple parallel universes, I suppose?
I have a healthy respect for the space-time continuum. In most cases I would be content to merely observe. Trying to prevent WWII would be overreach but cracking one sob gestapo officer in the back of the head and substituting his worthless life for a beautiful genius like Bruno Schulz should not be too disruptive I would think. Same calculation for Chapman and Lennon. I freely accept any charge of arbitrariness. But then it’s my imaginary time machine right?
Actually I’m a pretty thoroughgoing determinist. I doubt it’s that easy. To quote Charles Fort, it steam-engines when it’s steam-engine time. Even if Hitler had died someone like him would come along and something like WWII would have taken place. (Same with Jesus and Christianity by the way.)
Robert said
CEJ said
Death of Peter.
John 21 says Jesus told Peter he would stretch out his hands and be dressed and led to where he did not want to go, foreshadowing how Peter would die to glorify god.
What does this mean?
When, where and how did Peter meet his maker?
Apparently crucifixion, if there is any historicity behind this manner of death for Pete.
Did he try to flee Jerusalem during the siege, resulting in Roman capture and crucifixion, a fate many fleeing residents are said to have suffered?
Was he crucified in Rome?
I don’t buy his inverse crucifixion in The Acts of Peter.
What does it mean that they dressed him?
Thoughts?
This is similar terminology as found in Epictetus for ‘those stretching oneself out as the ones being crucified’ so it might refer to Peter being crucified. As for being ‘dressed’ this is more literally ‘being girded’, which could be related to someone being bound to a cross, ‘though this is not found in non-Christian sources. It may just be a more general reference for Peter being taken where he does not want to go (contrast Peter girding himself earlier in this chapter [21,8]), which could be a figurative reference to being killed or just a general reference to being taken captive. That’s the most that I would make of this. There’s no indication here that this would have taken place in Jerusalem or Rome.
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