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Did anyone notice Paul clashed with the twelve apostles?
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Jarek

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July 9, 2023 - 5:34 pm

Interestingly, Tertullian does not mention Paul’s first visit to Jerusalem. Tertullian only mentions the second visit known from Galatians 2:1-10 as the only visit.

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Parables

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July 9, 2023 - 9:14 pm

At think at some point you have to look at the situational evidence in early Christianity to see whether or not a schism between Paul and the Jerusalem church existed. A review of first and early second century Christianity does reveal historical records of that conflict.

“Those who are called Ebionites (Hebrew for Poor) agree that the world was made by God… They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the Law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the Law” (Irenaeus Adversus Haereses Book 1, Chapter 26)

You do see evidence of this form of Torah compliant Christianity within Acts. Insomuch as the author of Acts either didn’t know about or took pains to conceal the table fellowship incident between Peter and Paul (Galatians 2:12) and may have heavily sugarcoated the narrative of early Christianity to present a more positive story for the reader and the leave out mention of too much intra-brotherhood frictions and any gory depictions of Paul’s decapitation in Rome, he nevertheless is one of the few sources of information for early Christianity. Sometime before Galatians was written “certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved. Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders about this question.” (Acts 15:2). There really shouldn’t have been a question in the first place much less dissension and dispute unless the Judean believers in Jesus practiced a form of Christianity that required circumcision and followed the Torah. Does the Vatican need to hold a council with all the bishops present to decide if Muslim converts need to follow the Mosaic Law?

The storyline continues “some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed (in Jesus) rose up, saying, ” It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the Law of Moses” (Acts 15:5). Why would these Jesus believers demand that? They themselves must have kept the Law of Moses. After the different sides make their appeals, if the version in Acts is to be trusted (there is contention in the scholarship), James concluded that “I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.” (Acts 15:19-20). From this rough summary of his letter, it’s unclear if “blood” is referring to dietary restrictions or the sexual purity commandments concerning menstrual bleeding in the Mosaic Law.

One does have to note though that James follows this concession to ease the burden on Gentile converts with the reiteration that “For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” (Acts 15:21). There is a possibility that Acts 15:19-20 was a scribal insertion by the author of Acts as Acts 15:21 flows much more smoothly if it were to directly follow Acts 15:18: “Known to God from eternity are all His works.”

I’m inclined to believe that the early Jerusalem Church was not too strict with the earliest Gentile converts as Galatians 2 noted that “not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.” (Galatians 2:3). They probably wanted him circumcised voluntarily, but were going to physically hold him down to do so.

However, Acts also records an incidence were someone was circumcised according to the Law of Moses. Concerning “Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed…Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew his father was Greek” (Acts 16:3). But since his mother was Jewish, Timothy was technically partially under the jurisdiction of the Mosaic Law compliant faction of Christianity.

In another part of Acts, James reports “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law, but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs (of the Law).” (Acts 21:20-21). James ordered Paul to undergo a Nazirite purification ritual of repentance per the dictates of Numbers 6:13-18 and to cover to the (very significant) costs of 4 other Nazirite initiates, presumably as atonement: “so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the Law.” (Acts 21: 23-24). There’s a remarkable amount of silence from Paul, given his vocal resistance in his epistles, so I can only conclude that whatever source the author of Acts used didn’t have more information concerning Paul’s side of the argument during his second visit to Jerusalem, but I’m sure Paul had his objections.

I think Galatians 2 best alludes to the different gospels that Paul preached and that James and the other apostles preached: “when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter. For He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles…that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. They desired only that we should remember the Poor (scholars have argued that this refers to the Ebionites as that was the self-epithet for the group), the very thing which I also was eager to do.” (Galatians 2:9-10)

The gospel of Peter was effective amongst the Jews because it was a Mosaic Law compliant gospel and the Jews were already “zealous for the Law” (Acts 21:20). The gospel of Paul was effective amongst the Gentiles because I can’t imagine many first century non-Jews were enthusiastic about circumcision without anesthesia.

Now one could make the argument that after the 1st Council of Jerusalem, not all of the Jewish Christians were comfortable with the minimal yoke imposed on the Gentiles, and it appears “false brethen, secretly brought in who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Jesus Christ”(Galatians 2:4) reported back to Jerusalem that Paul’s congregation was flouting their mandates and eating meat sacrificed to idols and committing sexual immorality. To Paul’s credit, he did kick out the congregant who had sexual relations with his mother: “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles- that a man has his father’s wife!” (1 Corinthians 5:1).

But scandals like that probably didn’t reflect well on Paul’s congregation in Jerusalem. One has to wonder if the Jerusalem apostles and elders regretted their leeway as all epistles following Galatians show a steady steam of emissaries hounding Paul and his followers to abide by the Law and the dietary restrictions concerning meat sacrificed to idols and circumcision requirements, in particular.

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Jarek

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July 10, 2023 - 11:29 am

A very neat combination of the writings of various ghost writers, but none of it was real. Gal. 2:1-10 is literary fiction because the author of the letter felt it was best to show Paul’s intellectual, moral superiority over rival apostles lacking an ounce of common sense. On this narrative fiction was built the discussion of “Do we need the LXX and how do we interpret it? There have been no Jews who are orthodox halakha in the Christian movement. It is strange that Paul did not found any church in Hellenized Jerusalem where the Hellenistic Temple of Herod the Great stood. It was not until 66 that Jerusalem was taken over by nationalist insurgents with knives checking foreskins and slitting the throats of their holders
The relationship between Hellenists and circumcised fanatics was never a handshake.

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brenmcg

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July 10, 2023 - 2:00 pm

In Acts 21 it’s not clear James is telling Paul to take the nazarite vow himself. He says there are four men who have taken the vow and Paul should purify himself and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaven. Nothing says Paul should take the vow himself. Also it appears Paul had already taken the vow in Acts 18:18 “At Cenchreae he had his hair cut, for a vow he had taken.” So there’s nothing suggesting a conflict between Paul and James themselves here.

In Acts 15 it is some of the Pharisees who had converted who say the gentiles must follow the law. And it is the apostles and elders who then discuss the matter. So we see the inner group making their own ruling in an attempt to keep the church united. This inner group includes Peter (who ate with and lived like a gentile) and James (who was executed as a law breaker by the sanhedrin).

There are two extremes in the church – but Peter, James and Paul are at neither end. Irenaeus talks about both these extremes in Adversus Haereses

The ebionites at one end who “repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law … practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.”

And the Nicolaitanes at the other who “lead lives of unrestrained indulgence. The character of these men is very plainly pointed out in the Apocalypse of John as teaching that it is a matter of indifference to practise adultery, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.”

What best explains all this is the gospel of matthew as the earliest teaching of christianity. Where although there is no explicit rejection of the law of Moses, the authority of Moses is undermined, all authority is given to Jesus and only his commandments are to be obeyed and preached.

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Stephen
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July 17, 2023 - 4:38 pm

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood self-condemned, for until certain people came from James, he used to eat with the gentiles. But after they came, he drew back and kept himself separate for fear of the circumcision faction.

brenmcg, not sure how any more explicit it could be that James was part, indeed leader, of the circumcision faction? Why would Peter have had the reaction he did if he was not aware of James’ point of view?

The accounts in the Book of Acts are historically suspect because when we can compare them to Paul’s accounts they differ considerably. Acts clearly has an agenda to paper over the differences between the Jewish home church in Jerusalem and Paul’s ministry. The writer of the Gospel of Matthew clearly sides with James on these issues. Mark, with Paul.

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Yes I was taught that somehow this meant that Jesus was doing away with the Law. Instead of just the opposite.

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brenmcg

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July 18, 2023 - 12:43 pm

Here’s how to make it more explicit. “James ordered certain people to go to Antioch and stop Peter eating and living like a Gentile”

As it is it is ambiguous and its certainly compatible with the interpretation given in Acts 15 “since we have heard that certain persons who have gone out from us though with no instructions from us”

Galatians says Peter was afraid of the circumcision group – is there any indication in other source that Peter had reason to be afraid of James?

James was stoned to death – so whatever it is that James was doing his life was in danger. Peter belonged to the same church. Who is Peter afraid of? James? or the “circumcision group”?

Acts tells the story of how the Jerusalem church was persecuted. How Paul was one of those persecutors but later joined them. And that having joined them he was himself persecuted. That when he went to Jerusalem he was welcomed by James but James warned him that his life would be in danger in Jerusalem. This same James was later executed on the orders of the religious authorities in Jerusalem. Why do think acts has an agenda to paper over the cracks between Paul and the Jerusalem church?

Any reading of Matthew that doesn’t understand it as undermining the authority of Moses and preaching that the commands of Jesus are all that matters is an incorrect one.

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Stephen
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July 18, 2023 - 12:56 pm

brenmcg, I was raised with exactly the same viewpoint you have which interprets Matthew through a Pauline filter which is what Acts is doing. You should let Matthew have his own say.

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brenmcg

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July 18, 2023 - 2:13 pm

“It was also said, Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce. But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery”

“It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but at the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery”

“You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. I however say to you, Do not resist an evildoer.”

“Listen and understand it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles.”

“All things have been handed over to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

“Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.”

“Drink from it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations … teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.”

Surely allowing Matthew to have his own say you’ll hearing preaching a Jesus who contradicts and undermines the authority of Moses and claims all authority to command and make laws now rests solely with him?

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2380

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July 19, 2023 - 10:49 am

I have wondered if Jesus suspected that Josiah forced monotheism and temple worship.if Jesus saw that this had some good but not perfect results on Jews it may have partly been why he seems to have not fully embraced the law or temple authorities.

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Stephen
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July 24, 2023 - 3:42 pm

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

brenmcg, the Jesus of Matthew expects his followers to follow the Torah even more stringently than the Pharisees. That’s clear enough isn’t it?

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brenmcg

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July 24, 2023 - 4:51 pm

Matthew must first be read on his own.

“Do not think I have come to abolish the Law … “

On its own merits how does this line make sense in Matthew’s gospel. Its because Jesus is about to give a series of commands which contradict the torah. However Jesus will be fulfilling the prophecies in the torah about himself. Here Matthew is saying that just because Jesus is the new authority figure it doesn’t mean you can just throw the torah away. You’ll still need it to understand how he is fulfilling the prophecies.

Breaking the least of “these” commandments refers to the commandments he is about to give. The sermon on the mount ends with “whoever puts *these* words of mine into practice will be like a wise man who built his house on rock …”

The pharisees preach the torah – but the followers of Jesus must have righteousness which exceeds the pharisees and scribes.

You must obey the commands of Jesus – nowhere does Jesus say you must obey the torah.

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Stephen
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July 26, 2023 - 1:21 pm

Matthew must first be read on his own.

Precisely. So why do you insist on reading him through a Pauline filter?

Its because Jesus is about to give a series of commands which contradict the Torah.

There is nothing that the Matthean Jesus says that contradicts the Torah. Debates about how best to interpret the Law were continuous. The Pharisees had their views and Jesus was a Jewish sectarian who had his own views.

You must obey the commands of Jesus – nowhere does Jesus say you must obey the Torah.

Except of course where he says it explicitly in the passage I quoted.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I sympathize brenmcg. I was raised to garble this teaching as well. I remember how utterly flabbergasted I was when I finally understood the sense of the passage. The Matthean Jesus believes that one enters the coming Kingdom because of your adherence to the strictures of the Law, not by faith in the salvific effects of his crucifixion which hasn’t even taken place yet and of which Jesus clearly had no anticipation.

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brenmcg

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July 26, 2023 - 3:24 pm

– There is nothing that the Matthean Jesus says that contradicts the Torah

“You have heard that it was said, Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person.”

Contradicts the law

“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

Contradicts the law

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Contradicts the law

“For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Contradicts the law

“What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them”

Contradicts the law

“Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Contradicts the law

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him … Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father … Then the righteous will answer him, Lord”

Contradicts the law

“Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Contradicts the law

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

Contradicts the law

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brenmcg

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July 26, 2023 - 3:31 pm

– Except of course where he says it explicitly in the passage I quoted.

There are 4 sentences in the passage you quoted – which of the 4 is an explicit statement to his followers to follow the law?

“I sympathize brenmcg. I was raised to garble this teaching as well. I remember how utterly flabbergasted I was when I finally understood the sense of the passage.”

You should go back to your earlier understanding of the passage – its the correct one.

” The Matthean Jesus believes that one enters the coming Kingdom because of your adherence to the strictures of the Law, not by faith in the salvific effects of his crucifixion which hasn’t even taken place yet and of which Jesus clearly had no anticipation.”

He predicts his suffering and death three times in Matthew – he says he has come to give his life as a ransom for many. He says his blood is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. He says all those who have left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of his name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

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rickgill

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July 27, 2023 - 5:20 am

richard carrier said that matthew’s quote of “eye for an eye” passage and jesus’ contrast doesnt really contradict.

** you do not have permission to see this link **

There is no rejection of Mosaic law in Matthew 5:38. Jesus is interpreting the law even more harshly than liberal Rabbis did. That is the opposite of rejecting it. He is saying that the Torah is so strict that you risk sinning if you seek Torah-authorized vengeance (because you might sin against the innocently accused or carry out the law incorrectly, for example), so you should avoid doing that.

////

So is jesus’ contrast not categorical denial but circumstantial?

Circumstatial

1
: belonging to, consisting in, or dependent on circumstances

I dont know what the best interpretation , but it does seem that the jesus in the gospels contradict the torah

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Robert
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July 27, 2023 - 8:58 am
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brenmcg

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July 27, 2023 - 5:54 pm

@Robert

*- As Rick has already mentioned, if one understands the law as forbidding unjust or exaggerated retribution, the spirit of the law is not contradicted but embraced even more radically.*

Deut 19:21 “Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.” Lev 24:19-20 “When a man causes a disfigurement in his neighbor, as he has done it shall be done to him, fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has disfigured a man, he shall be disfigured.”

This isn’t about restricting retribution – it’s about ensuring that crime is punished. Jesus’s teaching is in complete contrast to it “If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.”

Also “You have heard it was said … ” is not a particularly respectful way to refer to the torah, and “I however say … ” clearly denotes contradiction.

*- Again, it depends on how one interprets the law. See the debate about divorce law between the schools of Hillel and Shammai.*

It’s the phrasing that matters most here: “Moses allowed you … however it was not this way at the beginning …”. The authority of Moses is being undermined here. The implication is that Moses made this ruling up and it was not received from God.

*- This statement has nothing whatsoever to do with the law.*

The law states that Moses spoke with god face to face and gave him the law/commandments. Here Jesus is saying that no one knows the father except the son (a first century narazene man) and those to whom he will reveal the father to.

*- The same statement is found in the Talmud.*

Are you suggesting the Talmud agrees with Matthew that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath?

*- Not if understood in context*

Lets check with a first century greek speaking christian to see how he understands it in context by looking at the aside he wrote in his second edition to the gospel of Matthew. Mark 7:19 “thus purifying all foods”.

*- Nonsense*

So a first century Nazarene man claiming he will be the Lord and King of Judgement day who will sit on his thrown with all the nations of world before him deciding who will and who wont enter the kingdom prepared by his father is not in contradiction with the torah of Moses?

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rickgill

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July 27, 2023 - 6:03 pm

You quoted the last part of the text but failed to quote what was above it. It mentions ” malacious witness”
And DIgilent inquiry done by the priests…was jesus on about malacious witnesses? was he on about slanderers? Was he on about false witnesses? you talk about slappjng across the face? What has this got to do with false witnesses, malacious witness…?

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rickgill

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July 27, 2023 - 6:06 pm

What is lev saying about injury? Intent to kill? Intent to disable?

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Robert
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July 27, 2023 - 6:20 pm
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