In the NT, there two ways of describing dying with Jesus and going to Paradise: Narrative and direct experience.
1. Narrative
All four gospels narrate accounts of criminals being crucified with Jesus, but Luke alone has Jesus saying these memorable words to one of those criminals : “Today I tell you, you will be with me in Paradise.”
“Two others, who were criminals, were also led away to be executed with Him (σὺν αὐτῷ ἀναιρεθῆναι). When they came to the place called The Skull, they crucified Him there, along with the criminals, one on His right and the other on His left…. One of the criminals who hung there heaped abuse on Him. “Are You not the Christ?” he said. “Save Yourself and us!” But the other one rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same judgment? We are punished justly, for we are receiving what our actions deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise (μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ Παραδείσῳ).”
— Luke 23:32-43
2. Direct experience of an altered state of consciousness, interpreted in religious terms.
Paul writes of having been personally transformed by having been co-crucified with Christ (Gal. 2:20, Paul’s very word, συσταυρόω, “co-crucified” is used in all of the Gospels–except Luke–to describe the situation of the criminals who died with Jesus!). Paul also (in third person, mystical autobiography) writes of knowing “a human being in Christ” who was raptured into “Paradise”. Paul’s Paradise discourse is probably best understood as a first century Jewish “religiously interpreted altered state of consciousness” (as Alan Segal suggests). Here are Paul’s words, in the Greek:
…ἐλεύσομαι δὲ εἰς ὀπτασίας καὶ ἀποκαλύψεις Κυρίου.
οἶδα ἄνθρωπον ἐν Χριστῷ πρὸ ἐτῶν δεκατεσσάρων, —
εἴτε ἐν σώματι οὐκ οἶδα,
εἴτε ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος οὐκ οἶδα,
ὁ Θεὸς οἶδεν,
—ἁρπαγέντα τὸν τοιοῦτον ἕως τρίτου οὐρανοῦ.
καὶ
οἶδα τὸν τοιοῦτον ἄνθρωπον —
εἴτε ἐν σώματι εἴτε χωρὶς τοῦ σώματος οὐκ οἶδα,
ὁ Θεὸς οἶδεν,—
ὅτι ἡρπάγη εἰς τὸν Παράδεισον
καὶ
ἤκουσεν ἄρρητα ῥήματα ἃ οὐκ ἐξὸν ἀνθρώπῳ λαλῆσαι.
…καὶ τῇ ὑπερβολῇ τῶν ἀποκαλύψεων.
διὸ ἵνα μὴ ὑπεραίρωμαι,
ἐδόθη μοι σκόλοψ τῇ σαρκί,
ἄγγελος Σατανᾶ,
ἵνα με κολαφίζῃ,
ἵνα μὴ ὑπεραίρωμαι.
ὑπὲρ τούτου τρὶς τὸν Κύριον παρεκάλεσα, ἵνα ἀποστῇ ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ.
καὶ εἴρηκέν μοι Ἀρκεῖ σοι ἡ χάρις μου·
ἡ γὰρ δύναμις ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ τελεῖται.
Ἥδιστα οὖν μᾶλλον καυχήσομαι ἐν ταῖς ἀσθενείαις,
ἵνα ἐπισκηνώσῃ ἐπ’ ἐμὲ ἡ δύναμις τοῦ Χριστοῦ.
–2 Corinthians 12:1-9
I have included the “thorn in the flesh” ordeal with the Paradise account because the two are connected by the idea of keeping Paul from being overly lifted up by the revelations he had experienced.
Although it is not said directly, I think Paul probably thought of the rapture to “Paradise” as being an account of his co-crucifixion with Christ. I further suspect that the Gospel writers were probably familiar with Paul’s direct experience account, and it influenced their narrative.
3. Bodily Felt Sense
Now to the point I would like to focus on: Paul’s language of experience “in the body” (ἐν σώματι), “in the flesh” (τῇ σαρκί) and “in weakness” (ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ).
I think that this is supposed to connect with “human” experience of bodily felt sense. Although it is rare, many humans report times of being “out of body” or even of being lifted up forcibly, levitated, as by some spiritual being. Such a journey can leave a person with a sense of having tasted perfection, of having new beginning, of receiving a fresh start by sheer grace. Reintegration into ordinary life after such a journey to heaven can be difficult–if you will, thorny. Humans also have experience of literal “thorns” that pierce the flesh (Cf LXX Numbers 33:55, “thorns in your eyes”). In this case, it is a metaphor and the meaning of the metaphor is unclear. I interpret it not as a physical illness, but rather as a forbidden desire, with Paradise as a backdrop (think, Eve and the serpent). As for “weakness”, (i.e. lack of strength) the term has a whole range of meanings in Paul’s discourse, but in the immediate context, I think these words of the Lord on “power in weakness made perfect”. These words can be spoken, (unlike the “unutterable words” heard in Paradise). Paul’s ministry of becoming “weak with the weak” has to do with his journey to Paradise, his subsequent experience moral temptation of desire–like that of a criminal, symbolized by a painful “thorn in the flesh”, perhaps involving Gentile vice. Ugh: We have all felt it–that sense of wanting to do something we know to be vice, then doing it, then regretting it. Such vice is what other people do, the people we look down on. Paul’s Gentile mission as “weak with the weak” was based on his experience of being united with the Lord who was “crucified in weakness” (2 Cor 13:4) and, who, having been raised, was also able to speak a word of power to people who–not unlike Paul himself–experience of moral weakness and temptation.
“power in weakness made perfect”
But there is a disturbing undercurrent of sadomasochism in some strains of Christianity. It makes me wonder what aliens would think of a community whose central image is of a man being tortured to death and whose meeting places are decorated with hideous images of this torture?
Stephen said
“power in weakness made perfect”But there is a disturbing undercurrent of sadomasochism in some strains of Christianity. It makes me wonder what aliens would think of a community whose central image is of a man being tortured to death and whose meeting places are decorated with hideous images of this torture?
Ouch. I don’t like that word: “sadomasochism.” I stay away from that. That said, I can sympathize with a tendency to see this talk of “co-crucifixion” as somehow similarly something to stay away from!
As for me, at some point, I opted to pay attention to such difficult texts as these, and it has become something I enjoy (some of the time). But it has taken a lot of time, and research. I experience it is a calling.
I checked last evening, and in my red letter KJV that my parents gave to me when I was baptized, there are only two passages in the Pauline epistles that is printed in red letters. The first is from 1 Corinthians 11:24-25:
“Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me…
This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.”
The second is from 2 Corinthians 12:
“My grace is sufficient for thee, for my strength is made perfect in weakness.”
I come from Old Order Amish roots. I have a letter from a four times great Grandfather, an early settler in Indiana where I now live, where he prayed that his children and grandchildren would (among other things), understand the meaning of the saying from 1 Corinthians 2:9 in the Luther bible.
Das kein Auge gesehen hat und kein Ohr gehöret hat und in keines Menschen Herz kommen ist,
das Gott bereitet hat denen, die ihn lieben.
I don’t know German, but my Grandpa did, and he felt called to leave the Amish, join the Mennonites (as a preacher), and teach his children (including my dad) to read the bible in KJV English.
I was unusual in my family in that I went to seminary and thus, became familiar with the basic tools for reading the NT Greek. I wrote a Masters thesis titled “Paul as a wonder-worker in Luke-Acts…”
It was after graduation (and after an ordeal of walking with my wife through infertility, and coming out “childless”) that something anomalous happened, an Alternative State of Consciousness that I relate to Paul’s ascent to Paradise.
The ASC was a “rapture” of a particular sort– three stages up, and one down.
It happened in sleep paralysis–body asleep, mind awake. Stage one was “…in the body, I do not know!”. It felt like I was being physically levitated upward from the bed by something like “fire.” I was terrified and thought I must be dying. I struggled to no avail. I was not in control. Stage two was “out of the body, I do not know! (God knows).” It felt like my “soul” was rising up out of my body and it felt like pure pleasure–heavenly whole-body, out of body climax. Stage three, I will call “the third” heaven. In this distinct third stage of the ascent there was nothing but thought in a perceptual void. It was pure intellectual bliss. “Oh, so this is what the Neo-Platonists were talking about” I said to myself.
Looking back, the third “heaven” stage of the ascent was the last conscious stage. Next came something like “sleep”–“soul sleep”. When I awoke from that heavenly sleep, back on my in bed, the first moment of reorientation came with a question: “Where was I?” Was “I” here “in my body” the whole time, or was I –this is impossible, I know, but nevertheless, it seemed perceptually true to wonder–was I for a time “without a body”. It was as if my material body transformed into spiritual energy and then reconstituted into something I will call “Paradise” on earth–my body awareness was strangely absent of “desire.” I wanted for nothing. My mind was clear. There was no background noise of hunger or pain. I knew it was temporary, but for the next twenty minutes or so, I was at Rest–Earthly Rest–in some perfect sense of the word.
That was back in ’95. I’m older now, 59, and have some distance. About 6 years ago, I began wondering about the next part of Paul’s Third Heaven story: How might my experience of mystical ascent help me understand Paul’s “thorn”? I’ve spent the last four years pondering Paul’s “in the flesh” language, together with his “weakness” language. And I’ve made some discoveries that I think are “objective”! It is this “objective” part that has brought me here.
It does not take anomalous experience to see what I’ve discovered in the letters of Paul (particularly, starting with a grammatically ambiguous phrase in Galatians 4:14–τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου). Thus, I’ve come here thinking maybe I might find an appropriate space to 1) share some of what I seem to have discovered, objectively, in the texts, using historical critical methods, and 2) get some useful feedback.
Your thoughts?
My parents were drunkards, so I am a drunkard. My parents were Christians, so I am a Christian. What does this have to do with me?
Your previous experience belongs to the past. And does not bear any meaning to Paul. Who was, by the way, a lier and a scoundrel.
And would have happily fucked you over if you crossed his way.
The only thing objective here is narcissism and very little usefulness.
It’s just a bunch of sophists who are so detached from reality that they will cease to exist at the end of any sentence.
Your previous experience… does not bear any meaning to Paul. Who was, by the way, a lier and a scoundrel… And would have happily fucked you over if you crossed his way.
I wonder if these words could properly be called “persecution” in the sense that Paul used the term when he said: “I persecuted the church and tried to destroy it.”?
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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