It is strange to hear someone quote Matthew as if these are certainly the words of Jesus, when that person doesn’t accept the rest of Matthew. Yes, the Jesus in Matthew teaches the keeping of commandments. To whom? And did the Jesus who spoke to Paul tell him to teach the Gentiles the same? If you don’t believe Paul’s Jesus, why believe Matthew’s Jesus?
I have heard a variety of people claim it would have been better if Acts 15 had turned out differently. Then maybe there wouldn’t have been anti-Semitism, maybe Jews and Christians would be one happy family. Then again, if Gentiles had to be circumcised to be Christian, Christianity never would have gotten anywhere. Maybe the world would still be pagan. Maybe Islam would have spread much farther.
Paul teaches his position that the Law saves no one just fine in Romans and elsewhere. This is the argument that won historically. Did God have nothing to do with that? Then who and what is God? It’s a lot to sell unless a person already thinks Paul was not following the Spirit in what he did, along with those who were persuaded by him.
If Christianity is not of God, then what is? Why? Says who? If Jesus in Matthew is the gold standard, then was Jesus of Matthew 28: 18-20 thwarted by Paul? How would that be possible if Jesus truly has all authority “in heaven and on earth”? It’s a lot to sell, no matter what story someone is trying to tell.
kendalynx said
For your consideration on Youtube, Jews For Judaism have interesting perspectives on Christianity, most notably, the formation of the gentile church, which was in opposition to the teachings of Jesus’ disciples.
Thanks for the link. I’m going to find time to watch the entire video. Over the last few years I’ve been leaning more and more to seeing Mark as the gentile church disagreeing with Peter’s messianic ideas in favor of the Son of God interpretation.
Mark has an entire disciples theme that begins with the disciple misunderstanding Jesus’ teachings, it reaches a climax with Peter declaring Jesus as the Messiah and then goes straight downhill with the disciples betraying Jesus, abandoning him and Peter’s three denials. In contrast Mark begins with God declaring Jesus as the Son of God which is repeated in the transfiguration scene and the only person who seems to understand is the gentile centurion. Finally it ends with the empty tomb and the declaration that Christ has risen. Many people develop elaborate heartwrenching ideas of how the disciples and Peter redeemed themselves but Mark says absolutely nothing about this. He ends with the disciples and the women having fled the scene.
drdavid600 said
Then who and what is God?
That’s a great question that would make a great new topic. I’ve just finished Nigel Leaves’ The God Problem which discusses several directions that the question is taking in an age when people are writing about the death of God, a post-Christian era, the end of the church and a non-supernatural world.
Thank you for the post. It does show a view of Jewish perspectives and their thoughts of Jesus and Christianity that I have neither read nor heard previously.That is a powerful lecture and its power lies in a straightforward presentation of what many know but prefer not to squarely face. Despite his conclusion veering into Christianity unraveling and people throughout the world coming to recognize Judaism as the true source of knowledge about God, the rabbi’s entire presentation of the origin of Christianity sounds dead on and unassailable.
Jesus was a traditional Jew who taught obeying the Torah and he did not proclaim his divinity.
His disciples were traditional Jews who taught obeying the Torah and did not consider Jesus God.
The Jerusalem Church were traditional Jews who taught obeying the Torah and did not consider themselves a new religion.
Paul was not a traditional Jew in teaching the end of the Torah.
Christianity as it exists today is a Greco-Roman Gentile church that does not reflect Jesus, his disciples and the Jerusalem Church because of its syncretism with pagan religion and philosophy.
drdavid600 said
It is strange to hear someone quote Matthew as if these are certainly the words of Jesus, when that person doesn’t accept the rest of Matthew. Yes, the Jesus in Matthew teaches the keeping of commandments. To whom? And did the Jesus who spoke to Paul tell him to teach the Gentiles the same? If you don’t believe Paul’s Jesus, why believe Matthew’s Jesus?I have heard a variety of people claim it would have been better if Acts 15 had turned out differently. Then maybe there wouldn’t have been anti-Semitism, maybe Jews and Christians would be one happy family. Then again, if Gentiles had to be circumcised to be Christian, Christianity never would have gotten anywhere. Maybe the world would still be pagan. Maybe Islam would have spread much farther.
Paul teaches his position that the Law saves no one just fine in Romans and elsewhere. This is the argument that won historically. Did God have nothing to do with that? Then who and what is God? It’s a lot to sell unless a person already thinks Paul was not following the Spirit in what he did, along with those who were persuaded by him.
If Christianity is not of God, then what is? Why? Says who? If Jesus in Matthew is the gold standard, then was Jesus of Matthew 28: 18-20 thwarted by Paul? How would that be possible if Jesus truly has all authority “in heaven and on earth”? It’s a lot to sell, no matter what story someone is trying to tell.
Wow, you’ve thrown out a lot of loaded questions. As Rosekeister pointed out, “Who or what is God?” alone is a huge question, and I don’t think there is a clear answer that does not arrise out of sheer speculation. I think the best we could hope for is to have glimpses of “God” that might look different to different people. One perspective is that of Neale Donald Walsch, author of Conversations with God, who claims “There is nothing that is NOT God.” If, before the creation, there was nothing but God, then what did he/it create the Universe out of, if not himself? For me, all of creation is God, and yet at the same time, God transcends that creation in ways that are beyond my understanding. Remember, we’re just one specieas on a small planet in an average solar system spinning around an average star in a sea of over 100 billion stars that we call the Milky Way. And even then, our Milky Way, with it’s hundred billion stars is but one in a sea of hundreds of billions of Galaxies. And you ask, “who or what is God?” Good luck with that LOL.
kendalynx said
For your consideration on Youtube, Jews For Judaism have interesting perspectives on Christianity, most notably, the formation of the gentile church, which was in opposition to the teachings of Jesus’ disciples.
I’ve seen several of the Rabbi’s videos, and have written to him a couple of times with specific questions. I think his unstanding of the scriptures is bang on, and certainly provides a clear understanding of what Jews believe and, more importantly, why.
I have not heard much from this guy in a while, probably my doing. As I remember there was a movement in the 80’s to make being non Jew more acceptable within Israel. This idea did not set well with many conservative Jews at the time. In Judaism there is a reference to all people being welcomed into the kingdom of god if they abide by The Seven Laws of Noah. I believe this movement was an effort to make supporting Israel more acceptable. However, many conservative Jews seen this as an effort to diminish the faith. This guy has been at this for a couple of decades trying to counter a trend for many to move away from conservative Judaism.
The Paul figure always bears the brunt of their criticism. I am sure many noticed the selective use of Paul’s writings during his talk. I think he is a great example to show Christian apologists what they sound like to other people. I never really appreciated the spectacle of what it is to be Jewish until I witnessed them dawned in phylacteries chanting their scriptures. They probably feel somewhat the same in a Catholic community during Ash Wednesday, or a Muslim one during Ramadan.
Insofar as Paul in early Christianity goes, this offers a very good example of a different perspective. I would love to see this guy, William Craig, Khalid Yasin, and Matt Dillahunty have a debate. They are all convinced that they proclaim the truth and do it with a passion. To state the obvious: They all can not be telling the truth.
I’ve listened to most of his videos on YouTube. Though I might not always agree with his conclusions, he does put thorns in my evangelical fundamentalist thoughts from which my mind struggles to escape. His main focus has been as a campaign against Jews for Jesus. I gather from his teachings, he believes Christianity has taken scriptures from the Tanakh out of context.
Azeus, you have a great proposal. I have had the same thought…a debate with Rabbi Skobac and William Craig would be a great one to watch, especially one on the prophecies of the Messiah or better yet a Triune God.
Well, Azeus and kendalynx, I have to agree. A debate between Skobac and Craig would be terrific. As I have exchanged a few emails with the Rabbi in the recent past, I have taken it upon myself to write him and suggest he pursue such a debate. Personally, I would like the subject of the debate to be whether or not Jesus fulfilled OT Messianic prophecies (or even if the alleged prophecies were prophecies to begin with.) In any event, I sent him an email this morning, and if and when he replies, I will post his comments.
UPDATE!
Well, the Good Rabbi has replied. He said this: “Thanks for your email. I am familiar with Prof. Ehrman and have read a number of his books. I am honored that you would think of having me debate Dr. Craig. However, as a matter of educational philosophy and policy, I don’t engage in debates. I am an educator and find debates to be more entertainment/persuasion than educational. I am always willing to lecture to any audience that would be interested in hearing what I can share.”
Well, ok, but all is not lost. Apparently, Rabbi Tovia Singer does not share Rabbi Skobac’s reluctance to debate. In fact he has already debated Bill Craig, although I can’t find a link to the entire debate. As coincidence would have it, Rabbi Singer debated Craig Evans just 2 days ago on the subject of “Was Jesus the Promised Messiah.” ** you do not have permission to see this link ** for details. Hopefully that debate will become available sometime soon. In any event, if you want the Jewish perspective as it relates to various Christian beliefs, simply go to either Rabbi’s website and find volumes of information, videos etc.
David, thank you for your efforts….
Back to the topic of “Jesus Christianity versus Pauline Christianity,” I recently read historian Reza Aslan’s Zealot. An alternate perspective with a faith-based Muslim thought melded into the gospel story, Aslan presents a table-turning, Jewish Jesus, rather than the milk-toast, gentile Jesus: Hebrew “revolutionary” to “Hellenistic demigod.” Using scripture for argument, Aslan lambasts Paul. Paul is accused of creating his own “heretical” version of Christ. It prickles my preconceived and indoctrinated thought patterns. Again, engaging to take a different view is quite a mental exercise. Any thoughts?
Bart said
Please let me clarify. I was not going to allow this post because I do not want the forum to be used to attack other religions. But when I opened up the link I saw what it was. It is not actually an attack on Judaism. It is a very moving and important staging of a book by Elie Wiesel, a committed Jewish author himself, God on Trial (Azeus: am I right about that?). It’s an extremely important and eye-opening book and this video is worth watching, not because it attacks Judaism but because it raises important questions about how there can be suffering in the world if God in fact is in charge. These are Jewish thinkers discussing the question in a concentration camp during the Holocaust.
Thank you for allowing the post. It most assuredly is not intended as an attack on anyone. All of the video’s in this post are provocative and challenge us to consider another perspective. Wiesel’s book was the source of this screen play. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, something often overlooked. His parents and youngest sister did not survive the Holocaust. Using anything he has ever said or done to attack someone would be an affront to everything he stands for.
I openly invite challenges to my views. I should have worded the initial post more carefully. Considering others views seriously can be threatening to our own sometimes. I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that you actually took the time to vet the post with careful consideration. That is a great testament to the efforts you put into this blog. Best Regards.
What was the mindset of early Christianity? What was so motivating that it caused an explosion of early Christian promulgation? The utter destruction of everything they held holy must have been devastating.
They were suffering, of that there is no doubt. Epicurius expresses it succinctly:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
Written centuries before them, it may very well express the sentiments of a people desperate for hope. Their God was not good. But, they loved their God. All the hope they had rested in a prophecy of Christ.
A religion that was exclusive to others destroyed their faith. Paul offers the inclusion of all. Jew and Gentile alike could enter the kingdom of God. The Christ had already come. Was that true? I assure you Θεόφιλος, the Christ had already come. Philo received that letter post festum. He had already laid the foundation for an apocalyptic faith that offered salvation through vicarious redemption. If a Jesus story with a Pauline attestation did not exist, it most certainly would have been created.
Last night I watched the 10 minute video posted on this thread by Azeus, called “God on Trial”.
After the 10 minute video was over, an option appeared on my laptop for watching several related videos, one of which was the full length, 1 hour and 25 minute video of “God on Trial”. Since I had the time, I went ahead and watched it as well.
Quite frankly, this was one of the most powerful videos I have ever seen.
If you watched the 10 minute video and found the discussion on God to be interesting, then you’ll want to watch the full length video if you can find the time.
In the full length video, there were many interesting discussions about God from the various characters in this video. One man was a physicist, who had a scientific view, there was a father and son who each had their own separate views, and there were several other people from various backgrounds who had their own separate views as well. Some of these people were quite knowledgeable on the Hebrew Bible. It was all very interesting.
My thanks go to Azeus for posting this video and to Professor Ehrman for allowing this video at this thread.
The God described in the early books of the Hebrew Bible, was a very jealous, impatient, vengeful, spiteful and angry being.
During the time that the Jewish people were enslaved in Egypt, did God really kill all the first-borns of the all the people who did not cover their doorposts with the blood of a sacrificial sheep. Even the Jewish people, who Moses was trying to liberate from Egypt?
During the time of Saul, did God really want Saul to kill all the Amalakites including all of their: families, wives, children, babies, and animals? Furthermore, did God really reject Saul as King of the Jewish people, because he didn’t do just exactly as God had directed?
Did God really kill David’s firstborn son because David had his wife’s husband killed?
Did God really do all of these things and does God really behave like this?
The reason I’m asking is because I believe that many of the Jewish people at the time of Jesus may have understood and interpreted God in just this way.
However, I believe that Jesus, on the other hand, may have had a somewhat different idea of just who God was, and what God was all about and this can be seen in part of Jesus’s message.
Jesus was always challenging the practices of the Jewish priesthood. For example, in Mark, Jesus tells us that the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
In Matthew, when Jesus was describing what will occur when the Son of Man comes from the clouds in power, he says that the Son of Man will separate the sheep (the good people) from the goats (the bad people). Then those people who are sheep, those people who have helped and supported others, will be invited to live in the Kingdom of God. On the other hand, those that didn’t, will be cast into hell.
This is a somewhat different interpretation of both the Hebrew Bible and what God wants people to do. This interpretation of God wants people to help others; not exterminate their enemies.
Based upon what is written in the Gospels, I believe that Jesus may have felt that one of his purposes was to bring about a new understanding and interpretation of God.
The Law verses Grace, this debate is as old as the NT itself; there are as many opinions on this subject as there are people that takes the time to explain it. I may be one of those, nevertheless I like my opinion to be known, it can do no arm for confusion already reigns supreme. I believe the Law and doctrines laid before believers to observe are meant for religious people, its main purpose is to teach the mentality of faith
These moral laws and doctrines, despite their imperfection, will give the believing men and women the vision, however foggy, of the kingdom of God. For we read in Galatians 3:24: “Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.” Evidently, among those who observe the Law there are many faithful men and women, just waiting to hear the good news of God’s grace and the salvation that comes by faith in him. Therefore, faith in the Law is necessary to mature the believer to have faith in Him. Because we read in John 4:38: “I sent you to reap that for which you have not laboured; others have laboured, and you have entered into their labour.”
This labour of others is seen in the work of John the Baptist, for he came to prepare a people to receive the Lord. Acts Chapter 10 tells the story of Cornelius a devout, charitable and God fearing man, who was well prepared to receive the Word and to be baptised with the grace of the Holy Spirit. A clear example of the importance and the foundation work of the Law obeying church is found in the gospel of Luke 16:27-31: “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house for I have five brothers that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ But he said, ‘No father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’” Next, we read in John 1:17: “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realised through Jesus Christ.” Most of us knows what is the Law; but… what is grace and truth?
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