DirkCampbell said
Don’t feed the trolls Robert, it just encourages them.
Steefen
Now on ADVESARY LIST TO IGNORE because he calls scholars/authors studying the Bible trolls and calls people who make comments about studying the Bible troll-encourager.
Go on DirkCampbell, show your rudeness and unsuitability to be a member of a discussion group.
Robert said
If you believe Paul the Egyptian invented Jesus, how do you account for the existence of James. Do you not think he was Jesus’ brother?
Steefen
Court is in session, Robert.
If you would like to approach the bench, tell us where in Acts and where in the authentic Pauline Letters, James is specifically identified as James the Just.
Do you have an age difference between James the Just and Jesus who was called Christ?
My search is not coming up with an explicit mention of James the Just in the bible.
If it were there, it would still fall into the category of mentions of John the Baptist and Pontius Pilate. Historical names can appear in historical fiction.
Now, there is the problem of Josephus going farther than the New Testament by explicitly naming James the Just as the brother of the fictional biblical Jesus Christ.
There are a number of Jesuses in the works of Josephus. Could one of those men be the brother? There was a Jesus who became high priest after James the Just was killed. Was that compensation for killing his brother?
= = =
Obviously, Paul as the Egyptian Prophet can go only so far with the limited information available.
One can find the claim Jesus had an Egyptian tattoo and that Paul had the same tattoo or mark of Christ.
One would not have to go to Alexandria or to Egypt along the Nile to get that given Serapis, Osiris, and Isis as gods with cults in the Roman Empire.
Some Egyptians, especially in Alexandria, could speak Greek, so “assumed this to be the case until he heard Paul speak” holds no weight. Egypt was part of the Roman Empire. Octavian won Egypt from Cleopatra and Antony.
Paul changed the subject instead of answering the question. Even if one says he did not change the subject, he did not say, “I remember the Egyptian Prophet and what he did, no, I am not him. Do I look like him? I am a Jew blah, blah, blah as the verse continues.
Furthermore a historian once said there were Egyptians living in Jerusalem. Now, that may be centuries earlier, perhaps 1000 BCE but they probably did not leave in the Babylonian Exile and were there after the Persians conquered Babylon and set the Jews free.
The Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) speaks of Jesus being an Egyptian magician. See the book Jesus in the Talmud.
Galatians 6:17 From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.
If the Roman Cohort Was Right about Paul Being the Egyptian Prophet at the Mount of Olives, Then What? ! ?
Answer:
Paul the Egyptian Prophet was not welcomed in Jerusalem (could not peaceably gain entrance into Jerusalem) if he needed to break into Jerusalem with a bunch of people.
But that is in line with the biblical Paul’s reputation–not being welcomed in Jerusalem. Of course, the Bible does not mention Paul tried to forcing himself on Jerusalem. Jesus tried forcing his way on Jerusalem by overturning tables in his father’s House of Prayer. Jesus, also, was not welcomed in Jerusalem.
Steefen said
Robert
But Paul certainly does speak of God as his father (eg, 1 Thes 1,1.3 3,11.13 Rom 1,7 1 Cor 1,3 8,6 15,24, 2 Cor 1,2 Gal 1,3 4,6 Phil 1,2 4,20 ** you do not have permission to see this link **).
Victor Paul Furnish, PhD
Wrede carries forward Wendt’s insistence that Paul was essentially rabbinic in his theological background and impulses, contrasts this with Jesus’ Pharisaic background, and criticizes both Wellhausen and Harnack for regarding Paul as Jesus’ expounder and successor. Wrede believes that Jesus’ emphasis on the fatherly providence of God ” scarcely finds an echo in Paul,” and doubts “whether the Pauline picture of the future can be considered a propagation of the original thoughts of Jesus.” Also with respect to morality and ethics Wrede finds Paul departing from Jesus’ teaching.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
page 350
Steefen said
Steefen
Now on ADVESARY LIST TO IGNORE because he calls scholars/authors studying the Bible trolls and calls people who make comments about studying the Bible troll-encourager.Go on DirkCampbell, show your rudeness and unsuitability to be a member of a discussion group.
Congratulations DirkCampbell!
Getting put on Steefen’s ADVERSARY LIST is a significant rite of passage here on the blog. You have truly arrived! Unfortunately there are no accompanying prizes so you’ll have to be satisfied with a feeling of pride in a job well done.
Steefen
Both Jesus and Paul speak of God as father; but, Wrede is speaking of Jesus’ view of the fatherly providence of God whereas Paul does not speak of the fatherly providence of God.
Steefen
Okay, let’s check this out then.
Providence:
the protective care of God or of nature as a spiritual power.
“they found their trust in divine providence to be a source of comfort”
Next we will take a look at the translation Robert provided.
Wrede’s point in context:
Many lines of connection may unquestionably be drawn from the one to the other;
but these by no means suffice to demonstrate an influence of Jesus on Paul.
Steefen
Insufficient evidence for demonstrating an influence of Jesus on Paul?
Wrede’s point in context:
Both men belong to the Judaism of the same age. It is then self-evident that their religion must of necessity exhibit a number of features in common.
Must we, for instance, look to the preaching of Jesus for an explanation if Paul calls God ‘our father’ or glories in being a child of God?
Long before Jesus, Judaism was acquainted with the divine name ‘father’ and thought of God not only as the father of Israel, but of each individual man.
It is not even true that Jesus was the first to set this name in the forefront.
In the same way Judaism counted childhood or sonship of God among the essential benefits of religion.
But there is a special aspect of God which Jesus associates with “Father”.
Steefen (leaning in)
What is THAT?
Wrede
Jesus associates the name of “Father” a Father-God who
directs and governs all
cares with inexhaustible kindness for each
counts the very hairs of our head
Jesus continues with the exhortation: “Trust in God.” One scarcely finds an echo in Paul. [even in the list of father verses Robert provided for the Pauline Letters]
Steefen said
Robert
Here’s an English translation of Wrede’s point in context:
Steefen
Please state the source so we do not have to backtrack.
Maybe this:
Paul, trans. Edward Lummis (London: Philip Green, 1907)
Let’s see if amazon shows a book by Wrede entitled Paul.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
B. Marold
Reviewed in the United States on December 11, 2006
This work is in the public domain in the United States of America, and possibly other nations. Within the United States, you may freely copy and distribute this work, as no entity (individual or corporate) has a copyright on the body of the work.
Dr. Bart Ehrman
I don’t think that Paul is at all weak on the Father. And I think most of Paul’s theology does not come from jesus.
Steefen
William Wrede
Many lines of connection may unquestionably be drawn from Jesus to Paul;
but these by no means suffice to demonstrate an influence of Jesus on Paul.
Steefen
Insufficient evidence for demonstrating an influence of Jesus on Paul?
Wrede
Both men belong to the Judaism of the same age. It is then self-evident that their religion must of necessity exhibit a number of features in common.
Must we look to Jesus’s preaching for an explanation if Paul calls God ‘our father’ or glories in being a child of God?
Before Jesus, Judaism was acquainted with ‘father’ and thought of God not only as the father of Israel, but of each individual man.
In the same way Judaism counted childhood or sonship of God among the essential benefits of religion.
But there is a special aspect of God which Jesus associates with “Father”.
Steefen (leaning in)
What is THAT?
Wrede
Jesus associates the name of “Father” to a Father-God who
1) directs and governs all
2) cares with inexhaustible kindness for each
3) counts the very hairs of our head, and
4) Jesus continues with the exhortation: “Trust in God.”
One scarcely finds an echo of this in Paul. [even in the list of father verses in the Pauline Letters.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)