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Jarek, Darek & Marcion walk into a bar ...
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 21, 2023 - 2:07 am

Robert. At last. Look how brilliant your analysis is. Two sentences that hit the spot perfectly. You used the right criteria, without looking at any analyzes of specialists from the Software Quality Assurance Department. Bill took what was available to him and did what he planned.
I always knew you’d understand me someday.
Bill himself protected himself from such clever actions and patented everything he could so that no one would surprise him in the same way. Blocked theft and copying. And what ? There will always be another way.
Google made Android violating Bill’s patent rights and made it available for free to smartphone manufacturers. Google paid, is paying and will pay Bill $5 for every Android installation. On a tablet, on a laptop, on a smartphone, on a TV. On all devices made by anyone, anywhere, anytime.
Some can’t be stopped.
Once you fully appreciate your own analysis and transfer its mechanism to Marcion and the Orthodox, you will love the word benchmark.
The favorite game of the human species is Power Struggle. Some run around with guns as mercenaries, some fight in UFC cages and some do it at their desks.

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Robert
7064 Posts
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July 21, 2023 - 8:41 am
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 21, 2023 - 12:10 pm

You know them better than I do. They are among the masses of early Christian rubbish. You will bring them to the top if you change the filters. They will flow out, like particles of gold from a ground mountain of stones.
The research returned to the Platonic concept. First, thinking, creating a concept and then checking it with available data. Expectations collided with results? Another concept…

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Robert
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July 21, 2023 - 1:07 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 21, 2023 - 2:02 pm

I know that. Maybe someday you’ll decide to sift this mountain of stones that you see in your own way. It is fun I assure you

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Robert
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July 21, 2023 - 2:37 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 21, 2023 - 3:19 pm

From all the information about Marcion, from all the testimonies, I choose different things than you. You are guided by the theological accusations of his enemies written after his death, which I completely reject as unbelievable. Because the fact that a large part of them is a lie is obvious immediately after reading them.
I choose only those elements that fit the decisions he has made and the goals he has achieved. Marcion conquered the world with Christianity just like Gates with Windows. He tried to buy and convince the competition, already having his own canon and structure that worked so effectively that everyone else, regardless of where they came from, fought against it. They were copying him. They introduced the canon, and on top came the banker and the first financial scandal.

We look at the same data and see a completely different person. We’re just making different choices from this heap of stones.

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Robert
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July 21, 2023 - 3:46 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 21, 2023 - 4:04 pm

But like most biblical scholars, you give theological polemics enormous importance. When did this polemic start? When he donated money and books, when he sat in Rome for 5 years and discussed with them? Suddenly their benefactor is mad? Just like Valentinus – at first he behaves normally, then when he loses the pope’s position, he changes his views? Can’t you see what’s going on here?

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Robert
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July 21, 2023 - 4:08 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 21, 2023 - 4:42 pm

You go back to Marcion’s theology every time there’s talk of him. I think you should try to understand the situation where someone becomes a generous funder, establishing a good relationship with the other party with generous gestures, only to unexpectedly spoil it. Create possible answers and choose one. All the authors I know focus on theology. Somehow, no one answers the question of what else Ireneusz could write to whom Marcion founds churches and takes students under his nose? Because he couldn’t tell the truth. It was he who invented theology in opposition to the one that was successful in his area against his will. He could not write that the enemy is better organized and managed

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Robert
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July 21, 2023 - 4:50 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 21, 2023 - 6:25 pm

Let’s compare something. Short text of the anonymous prologue to the Gospel of St. John. What information does it carry for you?

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Robert
7064 Posts
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July 21, 2023 - 7:01 pm
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TTHorne56

172 Posts
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35
July 21, 2023 - 9:09 pm

I have to ask, what in the prologue to GJohn indicates that the author was aware that Marcion (or anyone else) had collected letters attributed to Paul?

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Robert
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July 21, 2023 - 9:21 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 22, 2023 - 12:33 am

The prologue is a very important propaganda text because it was attached directly to the gospel. Who is it directly intended for? For own newly acquired staff. This is evidenced by the information about letters and writings that are completely indifferent to the masses of the faithful. Old staff lie to new staff. This is to set them critically to the competitive structure and prevent them from moving into the enemy’s camp. Marcion is rejected personally by the apostle, by the Pontic milieu, and he did not own the collection of letters and writings he delivered. It’s all a lie, but there’s only one conclusion.
Apart from the money, Marcion donated a collection of writings and letters that did not have to be returned to him because … they were not his. What was there – is not known.

This text shows the absolute desperation of its authors against an enemy who teaches practically the same thing – his teaching is indistinguishable to the end user.
So lies were invented and an evangelist was put to the dirty work.

It is worth adding that this text is ignored by almost all biblical scholars. Because the anonymous and ahistorical thread about Jan – probably the author didn’t know what he was writing. He knew exactly what he was writing.

As you can see my conclusions are not radical. They are different.

But if we do analyzes for 10 testimonials and then draw general conclusions from all of them, we will certainly be very different. Whether Paul’s letters are authentic and whether they contain a historical account in the narrative layer is a completely separate issue.

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Robert
7064 Posts
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July 22, 2023 - 11:25 am
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 22, 2023 - 1:18 pm

I took the prologue so you’d see I’m careful with my conclusions. But my conclusions are different because I put emphasis on other things. Marcion hardly wrote anything. He took something from the market because he saw that it worked. He copied something else because it also worked. He knew what to do about it. Anyway, this authorship is irrelevant because no one could sign it. Anonymity and “open” access to the literature was part of the game.

He didn’t have much of a choice judging by the reconstructions of the Apostolikon and Ev. Before he came to Rome, his organization was copying books for mission purposes, and they were probably known for that. I do not share the views of Vinzent and Detering as to his authorship of the gospels and letters.
As for Paul, both my position and your position are equivalent due to the inability to verify the text. Whether it is a historical account or an invented tradition. Neither you nor I have any evidence. You are guided in your argument by the premises resulting from the text of the letters. I believe that everything can be written, but not everything can be done.

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Robert
7064 Posts
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40
July 22, 2023 - 1:29 pm
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