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Letter to Bart Ehrman about Paul and St. Augustine about Original Sin
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Steefen
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June 13, 2026 - 1:28 pm

I just searched Recent Posts for “Original Sin.” I didn’t find anything. Google says, “Jesus did not talk about original sin because the specific term and formal doctrine did not exist during his lifetime.” But Paul was the first biblical author to put that in Early Christianity. Then St. Augustine put it in his theology.

Did Paul read Genesis and Jesus didn’t? What in the world is going on here?

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Stephen
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June 13, 2026 - 2:04 pm

Paul’s later interpreters took some of the statements he made and created the doctrine. They then read it back into Paul & Genesis. Find a Jewish exposition of early Genesis.  You will be surprised.  Read Paul’s seven authentic letters in the context of Jewish apocalypticism. 

Paul believed Sin & Death were cosmic powers that entered & dominated the cosmos because of Adam’s disobedience. These demonic powers are what the Son of Man will destroy at the Parousia to establish God’s earthly kingdom.  This is not Original Sin but the idea that was used to create the Doctrine of Original Sin.  There is no “personal salvation” in Paul’s view.

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Steefen
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June 13, 2026 - 10:28 pm

Stephen said
Paul’s later interpreters took some of the statements he made and created the doctrine. They then read it back into Paul & Genesis. Find a Jewish exposition of early Genesis.  You will be surprised.  Read Paul’s seven authentic letters in the context of Jewish apocalypticism. 
Paul believed Sin & Death were cosmic powers that entered & dominated the cosmos because of Adam’s disobedience. These demonic powers are what the Son of Man will destroy at the Parousia to establish God’s earthly kingdom.  This is not Original Sin but the idea that was used to create the Doctrine of Original Sin.  There is no “personal salvation” in Paul’s view.
  

Steefen:

Neither Adam nor Eve were disobedient.

There is no “personal salvation” means what if individual persons repent?

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BJH1960

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June 14, 2026 - 12:31 am

Paul’s later interpreters took some of the statements he made and created the doctrine. They then read it back into Paul & Genesis. Find a Jewish exposition of early Genesis. You will be surprised. Read Paul’s seven authentic letters in the context of Jewish apocalypticism.

Yes, reading the Jewish view of the story in Genesis is eye-opening.  

And although original sin is definitely the majority position in Christianity, it is not accepted by the Eastern Orthodox Church:

** you do not have permission to see this link **

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Stephen
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June 15, 2026 - 5:14 pm

BJH1960 said

Paul’s later interpreters took some of the statements he made and created the doctrine. They then read it back into Paul & Genesis. Find a Jewish exposition of early Genesis. You will be surprised. Read Paul’s seven authentic letters in the context of Jewish apocalypticism.

Yes, reading the Jewish view of the story in Genesis is eye-opening.  
And although original sin is definitely the majority position in Christianity, it is not accepted by the Eastern Orthodox Church:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
  

Reading Jewish interpretations is liberating.  The presumption of Christians while telling Jews what their scriptures “really” mean is staggering.  

Back when I was searching (rather than merely being lost) one of the things that attracted me to Eastern Orthodoxy was its rejection of Augustine and Original Sin, an idea which still strikes me as sick. (See my Bad Ideas thread.) I also liked the eastern emphasis on theosis, divinization, becoming by grace what god is by nature.   The aspect that astounded me most when I first attended a service at a church was the utter absence of grim creepy Christs hanging on crosses.  (See any Ingmar Bergman movie.)   I was attracted by the sensuosity of the service, the light and the music.  (And the Icons.) 

I nearly took a trajectory being traced now by many jumping ship from Protestant denominations.  It is a remarkable process that is going on.  The Orthodox church in America is holding its own largely because of converts out of Protestantism. The cost of this is the, what’s a word? “de-ethnicizing” of the church.   Traditionally it was associated with eastern communities but the American church is really in flux.  There is a lot of agitation as these converts do like all converts do when they come from outside the tradition.  They want to bring some of their old ideas along with them.  I guess you could say they want to practice a “Protestant” Orthodoxy.  And of course everything gets “Americanized” eventually.  But the paradox is that converts are usually super-zealous so you have this situation where they’re anxious for ardent practice but filtered through their own sensibilities.   What will come of it?  

They’ll encounter one of the most culturally and politically reactionary communities you’ll ever see.  I said that I “nearly” took this trajectory.  Eventually the darker, more disturbing aspects of Orthodoxy presented themselves.  I heard someone boast that the church had not changed a single idea since the seventh century!  And that was to be admired.  Of course it’s blatantly false but tradition is heavy.  Politically they hold on to the idea that church and state must be intimately entwined and over the years this has enabled the church to support some awful regimes.  Today, the Russian Orthodox Church is one of Putin’s biggest supporters hooraying the war in Ukraine as part of the Holy War against western decadence, liberalism and satanism. 

Then there’s the institutional misogyny.  And sexual attitudes little better than those of my own family. 

It wound up that I was attracted by all the aesthetic aspects but repelled by the actual core of belief. I’m like a lot of people I’m sure.  I want the magic and the gods but not the obligations.  Could we create a religion that focused on the aesthetic parts and the community, that saw itself as some kind of communal metaphysical theater and performance art but ditched the gimcrack doctrines and the antiquated prejudices?  Maybe this kind of thing already exists?   But until we can convince the folks that require order and discipline and stringent commitment to unwavering convictions that they should be content to do their own thing and leave the rest of us alone, paradise will be out of reach.

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BJH1960

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June 16, 2026 - 1:20 am

Reading Jewish interpretations is liberating. The presumption of Christians while telling Jews what their scriptures “really” mean is staggering.

It really is.  Perhaps, the only thing more astounding is Islam’s remake of Judaism and Christianity.

Back when I was searching (rather than merely being lost)

I think all of us who were one-time Christians made an attempt to stay in one way or another. 

When I finally gave up trying once and for all, it was because of Mark 9:1 and my unwillingness to distort it to my liking.

I live in a Greek Orthodox dominated environment, and my impression is that many (most?) Greeks view the church more culturally than religiously. The difference between what is believed by the priest and the parishioner is significant, and they are not much bothered by it.  

It wound up that I was attracted by all the aesthetic aspects but repelled by the actual core of beliefs.

I enjoy certain things – lighting a candle, the stained glass windows, the architecture, and the icons.  

Could we create a religion that focused on the aesthetic parts and the community, that saw itself as some kind of communal metaphysical theater and performance art but ditched the gimcrack doctrines and the antiquated prejudices?

Not sure how accurate this observation is, but it certainly seems that as they move towards what at least I would consider enlightenment they ditch the aesthetics.

I’m rather fond of Reform Judaism (allowing a wide range of beliefs or lack of beliefs, for that matter) and so can imagine  attending services in a beautifully constructed building with ** you do not have permission to see this link ** depicting the wonderful stories, prophets, and poetry of the Tanakh. When we’re back in the Twin Cities, perhaps we’ll visit one. I think the only time I was ever in a synagogue was when I met with a rabbi to talk with him when I was considering a semester in Israel in the early 80s.

I rather got a kick out of reading ** you do not have permission to see this link **

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Steefen
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June 16, 2026 - 12:04 pm

Steefen said
I just searched Recent Posts for “Original Sin.” I didn’t find anything. Google says, “Jesus did not talk about original sin because the specific term and formal doctrine did not exist during his lifetime.” But Paul was the first biblical author to put that in Early Christianity. Then St. Augustine put it in his theology.
Did Paul read Genesis and Jesus didn’t? What in the world is going on here?
  

BDEhrman said:

Genesis does not speak about “original sin.”

The doctrine of original sin depends in part on a particular interpretation of Genesis.

Paul’s view was not at all Augustine’s view.

Steefen:
Interesting.

Genesis has all humans outside of Eden after the knowledge-evolution phase, so we do all suffer something.

Jesus did not speak of Original Sin, so his crucifixion doesn’t follow from that.

Paul’s view: he made it up so he can always have all humankind as his audience–the manipulator/exploiter of the pious.

Augustine: (I have to see what he said exactly.)

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