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Paul - another strike
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 26, 2023 - 12:23 am

And appeal to Caesar
Why historicism and mythicism fails?

Mythicism is defined and developed by biblical scholars and suffers from the same problems as historicism.
The first and biggest problem is looking for answers to questions that go beyond biblical studies, ancient philology or general history. Questions that require a detailed understanding of the essence of the matter. Such questions require careful extra-biblical research.
The description of Paul’s appeal to the emperors is an invented narrative by the author who does not understand the mechanisms of law enforcement. The appeal to the emperor was handled by the judge as part of the procedure. A convicted citizen could appeal to the emperor, and this appeal was ordered by the local judge who sentenced him. He had to accept the convict’s appeal, describe it, attach the case files to it and send it by imperial mail to Rome (curcus publicus). This was the end of his role until the answer authorized by the emperor’s office or the authorized court was received. The convict was either in custody or was forbidden to leave his place of residence and was subject to control. No one was sending anyone to the emperor. This whole thread of reference to Acts can be dismissed as a literary invention.

Another thing is Ignatius and his letters. Here the biblical scholars insisted on deciding which of his collection of letters is historical: short, medium or long recenssion. It is a pity that they forgot to check what is the point of sending an insignificant prisoner from Syria, halfway across the Mediterranean, to die in Rome.
Was Ignatius defeated in battle, or did he take over Syria killing thousands of legionnaires before losing? Is Ignatius the second Vercingetorix, Antony to be transported to the capital for a public show. “Here is our great enemy and we will kill him for the glory of Rome.” Really? How a local leader of an unknown and illegal religious movement was to serve the Empire’s propaganda purposes in its capital. Ignatius is a nobody recognizable in the scale of the Empire and such a journey and a martyrdom in the arena would only serve to promote an unknown illegal movement.

The 1st and 2nd centuries saw the rise of the religion of Serapis. This can be seen from Vespasian’s visit to Serapion in Alexandria, which ended with the miraculous healing of a blind man. On the occasion of his journey to the East and the Jewish War, Vespasian stopped by Serapion to settle one of his many errands. Successive emperors built serapions and took care of religion under the powers of Pontifex Maximus.
Rome dealt with all foreign religions in exactly the same way. First, he preemptively condemned them and refused to recognize them. They were treated as foreign superstitions and persecuted. If they survived this stage and continued to develop, they were gradually included in the current system of Pax Deorum. The same was true of Isis and Dionysus. Neos Dionysus is one of the titles reserved for emperors. They used it or they didn’t. A political decision.
The religious logic of the Empire determined the importance of the Roman commune, which raised its importance through historical policy by attracting Peter and Paul to Rome with various writings.
The study of the historicity of literary works ignores or underestimates the goals of early Christian historical policy.
Mythicists, like their opponents, simply make the same mistakes. What counts for them is a specific text, not the purpose for which it was written.
Limiting yourself to the texts alone leads to hasty conclusions.

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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 26, 2023 - 12:41 am

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Porphyry

1834 Posts
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July 26, 2023 - 1:38 pm

I’m really dying to know what you thought the enya music would add to the thread.

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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 26, 2023 - 1:45 pm

Mood

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Steefen
7641 Posts
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July 26, 2023 - 10:16 pm

Jarek
Neos Dionysus is one of the titles reserved for emperors. They used it or they didn’t. A political decision.

Steefen
From Julius Caesar to Marcus Aurelius, please identify the emperors who accepted the title Neos Dionysus and provide some sources.
Thank you.

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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 27, 2023 - 1:21 am

Dionysus and legitimisation of Imperial Authority by myth in first and second century Rome: Caligula, Domitian and Hadrian. (2021)
Dionysus and Politics Constructing Authority in the Graeco-Roman World (ed. F. Doroszewski, D. Karłowicz), 2021

Religions of Rome John North, Mary Beard, Simon Price

You welcome.

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Robert
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July 27, 2023 - 6:36 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 28, 2023 - 5:00 pm

Questions that need to be answered when analyzing the case of Ignatius’ martyrdom journey:
1. How widespread was the knowledge of Ignatius and his crimes in the Empire, in Rome?
2. Was he a threat to the public order of the entire Empire?
3. What did Rome gain from his execution in the capital?
4. What conditions must be provided to a prisoner in order to deliver him alive?
5. Condemned to death for writing and religious activities, writes while traveling and visiting friends?
Ask yourself these questions and if you come up with an authentic story and genuine correspondence, then maybe think again.
This story doesn’t make any sense.

Unfortunately, when it comes to my parents, only my memory of them is alive. Thanks for the good words.

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Robert
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July 28, 2023 - 6:24 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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July 28, 2023 - 11:37 pm

I am just trying to present the method with a simple example. My method is not to set artificial paradigms. My method is to ask legitimate questions. Then answer them and recreate a possible scenario. Then use SWOT to evaluate it. Most often throw away because it will not pass the SWOT analysis. And create another one
It is neither difficult nor time consuming to follow my example. What is the basis of the assertion of the authenticity of Ignatius’ letters? The existence and journey of Ignatius. What makes you take it for granted that the emperor funded a trip for him in the conditions in which bishops traveled to the Council of Nicaea: stage transport, escort, good food, extensive social life, support for literary creativity. What is supposed to be the goal: to be eaten by wild beasts after explaining who this old man is with a face like no one else. Ignatius? I don’t know

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Robert
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July 29, 2023 - 7:12 am
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Steefen
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July 29, 2023 - 6:59 pm

Steefen
From Julius Caesar to Marcus Aurelius, please identify the emperors who accepted the title Neos Dionysus and provide some sources.
Thank you.

Jarek
Dionysus and legitimisation of Imperial Authority by myth in first and second century Rome: Caligula, Domitian and Hadrian. (2021)

by S Poloczek / Academia.edu

You welcome.

Steefen
“You welcome.”

= = = =

Caligula.

Dionysus: the god of wine-making, orchards and fruit, vegetation, fertility, festivity, insanity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, and theatre.

Jarek
Neos Dionysus is one of the titles reserved for emperors. They used it or they didn’t. A political decision.

Steefen
“Insanity” constructs and legitimizes an emperor’s authority.
Oh, but of course: “they used it or they did not–a political decision.”

Caligula, but not Nero with Seneca, not Vespasian, not Titus.

Ptolemy XII Neos Dionysus was a king of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt who ruled from 80 to 58 BC and then again from 55 BC until his death in 51 BC.
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