Steefen said
He robbed/plundered other churches, plural.What is this singular Macedonian church (the Macedonians) you bring up?
Patron – Client = Church – Preacher means preach what we want you to preach, what we pay you to preach.
No, that does not sound like an arrangement Paul would honor. You listen to what I want to say. Jesus appeared to me, he did not appear to the patrons.
Macedonian Church and Macedonians are both plural like saying the Catholic Church or the Catholics. 2 Cor 11:9 Paul talks about his friends from Macedonia supporting him and in 8:1 he talks about the churches of Macedonia.
Your comments on the patron/client relationship sound like they could be plausible, but it’s still speculative (unless you have a reference?). I’ll read more on it, but it will take me a while. As far as I know the problem Paul had with the Corinthians to make him not accept their monetary support is not actually mentioned anywhere in his epistles or in Acts.
gmatthews:
I can find nothing that suggest scholars believe Paul is being dishonorable.
Paul is literally plundering the Macedonians, but I do not accept or believe that he took pleasure in it.
stephenoabc:
Plundering is dishonorable not whether or not one takes pleasure in the crime.
Who is stephenoabc?
My point is still that no scholar that I can find has a problem with him saying “plunder”. There’s a nuance here to his statement that I can’t explain.
gmatthews:
“(you say) I was being crafty…”
stephenoabc:
Those who say weren’t the ones doing the plundering, weren’t the ones being crafty. Why couldn’t Paul minister to the Corinthians from his tent-making or leathersmithing? Even you say there was a social norm, he craftily got out from under the social norm.
The patron client relationship definitely should not have existed for Jesus. He had the gift and the listeners payed to be enriched. Paul could see it the same way where the patron-client relationship was reversed. I’m not paid for propaganda as Josephus was, I’m paid for my talent that enriches your life to hear.
The crafty verse didn’t have anything to do with the plundering verse. They’re in different chapters. Paul did minister while he worked at his craft, but I don’t think it was full time, or maybe he stopped doing it at some point (I forget which). For some reason craftsmen were looked down on in Roman society. There’s a quote from Lucian that talks about craftsmen being a little looked down on so society would not have viewed his profession as a worthy occupation. Ironically to us today taking the Corinthians money would have been more honorable back then.
gmatthews:
My point is still that no scholar that I can find has a problem with him saying “plunder”.
stephenoabc or steefen (same person):
Come on, one does not need a scholar to characterize robbing/plundering as bad. Are you throwing out Thou shalt not steal (which includes robbing and plundering) from Christian moral education?
Steefen said
gmatthews:My point is still that no scholar that I can find has a problem with him saying “plunder”.
stephenoabc or steefen (same person):
Come on, one does not need a scholar to characterize robbing/plundering as bad. Are you throwing out Thou shalt not steal (which includes robbing and plundering) from Christian moral education?
I consulted Bart’s textbook on the NT last night and he has about 15 pages on both letters to Corinth and he doesn’t mention it either. No one is mentioning it. Don’t you think if Paul was literally a plundering thief in the way you say someone would be talking about it other than armchair quarterbacks like us? 
By the way, he more or less agrees with your idea on why Paul refused the patron/client relationship with the Corinthians. Bart says Paul saw submitting to their patronage as putting the Gospel up for sale.
Steefen said
Yea, 8: 1. He speaks of the Macedonian churches but there is no epistle to them or is there?
There are probably many letters of Paul that we no longer have. Philippians is believed to be 3 letters in one and 2 Corinthians is believed to be 3 or possibly up to 5 letters edited down to one. The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if Paul didn’t express ideas that these early editors opposed and hence we don’t really know the full scope of what he believed and preached due to their getting rid of the letters that expressed those ideas.
Here’s another way to look at 2 Cor 11:8. The verse in the NRSV is:
I robbed other churches by accepting support from them to serve you.
The emphasis is mine. Paul is saying that the act of accepting support from other churches is in effect robbing them. Using plunder as a synonym is preferable in my opinion because it strengthens what must have been the act he felt he had to perpetuate by necessity. Surely the obligation the Corinthians would have placed him under for accepting their patronage was going to be abhorrent! For some reason Paul was either not working as a tent maker or it wasn’t enough to support himself. Acts 18 says he set up shop in Corinth after arriving there. Silas and Timothy joined him later from Macedonia so maybe he was trying to support all of them and wasn’t able. If we are to believe the way that you want to read the verse it would be worded as:
I robbed other churches to support myself in order to serve you.
Surely the difference is apparent here?
Here’s some other online commentary that offers a slightly different view: ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
I’ve also checked Paul: A Short Introduction by Morna D. Hooker (one of today’s experts on Paul) and A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by Bruce Metzger and neither address 2 Cor 11:8 so to them it must have not been a big deal. In Metzger’s book he offers a short commentary on many, many verses in the NT so to skip that one I think says a lot (and, no, I don’t think it means he was afraid to address it!).
gmatthews said
Steefen said
gmatthews:My point is still that no scholar that I can find has a problem with him saying “plunder”.
stephenoabc or steefen (same person):
Come on, one does not need a scholar to characterize robbing/plundering as bad. Are you throwing out Thou shalt not steal (which includes robbing and plundering) from Christian moral education?
I consulted Bart’s textbook on the NT last night and he has about 15 pages on both letters to Corinth and he doesn’t mention it either. No one is mentioning it. Don’t you think if Paul was literally a plundering thief in the way you say someone would be talking about it other than armchair quarterbacks like us?
“the way you say”
The way I say? Those quotations are from Bibles – not my translations.
I think you’ve forgotten what you said. You should re-read everything you posted to this topic. Regardless, I’ve said everything I need to on this topic. I’ve stated my position and I don’t think you’re going to find any scholars who read these verses from your perspective.
gmatthews said
I think you’ve forgotten what you said. You should re-read everything you posted to this topic. Regardless, I’ve said everything I need to on this topic. I’ve stated my position and I don’t think you’re going to find any scholars who read these verses from your perspective.
Paul speaks for himself. He used the words robbed and/or plundered. If you and selected scholars want to water down his exact words, you and selected scholars are in error.
The New American Bible Revised Edition uses the word plundered. I’m quite sure the NABRE scholars carefully chose the word plundered.
Second, Josephus tells a story of men who asked a woman for money and used the money for a different purpose. Here is Paul doing the same thing.
cheriq said
My impression is that Paul was whining (again!). I’ve noted that several times he protests that he is not lying. Shakespeare would lift an eyebrow and say something like, “Me thinks thou protesteth over much.”
Actually, no Paul isn’t saying this in the same instance or at the same time. Me thinks you manufacture over much. Way way to much is made of Paul’s oaths. Guess what? often people who aren’t lying say they aren’t lying IMAGINE THAT! and they tend to say it even more if they are being accused of lying. Galatians is probably a perfect example. Paul is in a heated exchange about
whether following the laws of Moses is necessary for salvation. Each group thinks the other is fundamentally wrong about something as important as where you end up for eternity. Such disagreements usually get heated and all kinds of accusations get made
gmatthews said
Regarding Paul’s description of plundering or robbing other churches, ie. the Macedonians, in 2 Cor 11:8, no scholar I can find makes an issue of Paul’s choice of words. That is, I can find nothing that suggest scholars believe Paul is being dishonorable. As I will describe in a moment Paul is literally plundering the Macedonians, but I do not accept or believe that he took pleasure in it.
Are we sure Paul is not being sarcastic here. as in yea right I plundered those churches even though I didn’t take any money from you nor did my people. Is Paul ridiculing the charges here?
spiker said
gmatthews said
Regarding Paul’s description of plundering or robbing other churches, ie. the Macedonians, in 2 Cor 11:8, no scholar I can find makes an issue of Paul’s choice of words. That is, I can find nothing that suggest scholars believe Paul is being dishonorable. As I will describe in a moment Paul is literally plundering the Macedonians, but I do not accept or believe that he took pleasure in it.Are we sure Paul is not being sarcastic here. as in yea right I plundered those churches even though I didn’t take any money from you nor did my people. Is Paul ridiculing the charges here?
That’s one of the things I initially thought and posted, but look above at post #27 where I explain what he was really saying (notwithstanding the conspiracy theorists).
@G.
I think your first instinct was right.How else do we explain the crafty line?
Anyway, its instructive that some people here think Paul is telling people he ripped them off? If he was, why admit it!? IN WRITING NO LESS!!? It’s mind boggling that they think Paul ripped off some churches, got away with it and not only confesses, but does so in a way that can get him thrown in Jail?
I have some sub prime mortgages for them to invest in.
Why they could more than quadruple their investments because as we all know, the housing market will just go up forever.
Possibly, but maybe not. The whole thing is just matter of Paul’s choice of words and the translator’s choice of English words (in my opinion). I couldn’t find any scholarly hand-wringing over this verse which would indicate that the academics were uncertain of the meaning of the verse.
Lawyerskeptic said
I’m sure you’ve all read Dr. Ehrman’s May 21 post regarding missing New Testament documents. Does the subject discussed in this thread fall within the category of things we would understand a lot better if we had letters by Paul’s opponents?
Interesting question. No doubt if we had a back and forth between Paul and his opponents.
BDEhrman
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