Hi Bart,
Markus, if you want to directly address Prof Ehrman put your comments under RECENT POSTS.
You might also want to check out ** you do not have permission to see this link ** if you don’t already know of it.
Paul was clearly an ecstatic, acquainted with visionary states of consciousness. It seems to have been part of his apocalypticism. (One can’t help but wonder about Jesus.) But there doesn’t seem to be any evidence in Paul’s authentic letters that he used drugs to stimulate these experiences. What fans of “entheogens” don’t seem to realize is that using the proper techniques one can have any experience available without drugs. And of course there are prodigies whose brains seem wired in such a way that they have a talent for such experiences. These folks tend to either be locked up or become saints, or be locked up and become saints. All I can say is that while it’s well and good to use these substances to get a glimpse of the summit of the mountain, the one who climbs the mountain knows something about the mountain and the summit and himself that the occasional visitor will never know.
Stephen said
. . . What fans of “entheogens” don’t seem to realize is that using the proper techniques one can have any experience available without drugs. . . .
I recall that a number of artists/creative-people who experimented with drugs remembered that while under the influence of the drug, they felt wildly creative, doing their best work and even as if they were blazing new territory, but once they came out of that state and saw what they had made, it was total junk. The drugs did not so much enhance their creative abilities as it did suppress their judgement.
Well I’m no puritan. If folks like to get high why not just admit that instead of couching it in some dubious mystical “quest”? It is interesting that when the ancients used these substances it seems to have been under carefully controlled circumstances, thoroughly ritualized. There doesn’t seem to have been a concept of recreational use although one imagines there must have been some kind of abuse. It was Homer after all who introduces us to the abiding image of the Lotus Eater. And I’m no hypocrite. Growing up in the 1970s I enjoyed all the pleasures available without regret. I live in Washington DC and possession of cannabis is now legal and they have begun to allow non-medical walk-in businesses like in Colorado. Surely a situation preferable to the mind-numbingly stupid war on drugs.
To each his own. The study of ancient cultural practices is fascinating as is the modern research here at Johns Hopkins using psilocybin to treat alcoholism and clinical depression with amazing results.
While I think we should stop destroying people’s lives for smoking some weed to get high (or whatever the more current terminology might be), I am not really in favor of full legalization. Surely it should, at the very least, still be illegal for underage use, much as alcohol is. Indeed, people keep saying that it will be just like alcohol, and I agree, but also add that alcohol is already a major problem and I am not thrilled to add something else to the list. It is not such a destructive force for all users, but I don’t mess around with my brain. I consider it my primary asset, and I have no sense of a need to “get high.” The fact that so many people do feel such a ” need” is a complicated question, and all too often a serious problem. (I see a very different set of issues for people who are using it for legitimate medical reason, such as those on chemotherapy, where it seems to help with nausea and appetite issues. I certainly endorse medical research, which might result in treatments apart from the “getting high” part. It might even be interesting to know if anyone wants to use it without those other parts.) I expect that the business and taxing opportunities will make it inevitable.
I suppose one thing to be said in favor of weed is that few people smoke it and commit intentionally violent acts, unlike alcohol. As long as they stay home and away from driving or operating heavy equipment. On the other hand, there is really no such thing as second hand drinking, even if the effects may often fall on others in terms of the actions taken. it is a bit annoying for people to talk about weed as if it is some purely benign natural and safe indulgence. It is not at all like eating kale.
I believe Cary Grant credited careful use of LSD with keeping him from committing suicide. Life is certainly complicated.
evidently i can’t comment on blog posts and this seems to be the closest i can get to the current topic of why saul didn’t quote or seem to care about jesus’ life. all the given reasons completely miss the concept of occam’s razor–that the simplest reason is usually the correct one. so what is the simplest reason?
because saul started his ‘career’ working for the jewish priests terrified by the new pseudo-jewish movement later called christianity and killed or at least helped to kill christians. one example (stephen) is given in the nt, but there’s no reason to believe saul wasn’t much more active than this. but saul was no dummy and he realized fairly quickly that killing christians one at a time was futile so he decided to go mole–in other words he faked an epiphany and got taken into the brotherhood pain free.
and since his goal was to kill christianity itself (which he succeeded at brilliantly!) he cared not a jot or tittle about jesus, thus his indifference to his life or what he said. this is the simplest and most logical explanation but no one can seem to make this leap because they’ve been brainwashed with saul as the object of worship and it also explains why christians profess to follow jesus, but indeed have no use for his ‘liberal’ stances on everything so they worship saul instead.
/guy
Robert said
silverlocke said
evidently i can’t comment on blog posts …
Welcome, silverlocke. Let me know what happens when you try to comment on blog posts. I’d like to get that fixed for you.
As for your theory about Paul trying to destroy Christianity from the outside, there’s another member here who has a very similar theory. Let me see if I can remember who and direct you to his thread on this topic.
thanks for the welcome robert! i’ve followed dr ehrman for many years but only recently found my way to the blog and just discovered this forum today.
i’m on the lowest tier subscription and it evidently doesn’t allow commenting. which is ok–i rarely have any comment worthy of the name anyway. but i grew up in a literalist sect, so sometimes i feel i have biblical knowledge to share upon occasion. 🙂 but, as you might surmise given my screen name, i’ve found paganism relatively recently (and teach at an online pagan school) and escaped fundamentalism many decades ago.
and i’ve never known anyone who shared my theory about saul so i’d really welcome being able to read their version of it.
tks agn, /guy
If he’s drugged, not impossible of course but how is he traveling from land to land putting in absurd levels of personal effort to win over converts?
I agree he’s extraordinarily creative. To have developed such a novel theology in such a short time testifies to his creative brilliance. Not sure if drugs are needed for that.
Re. destroying Christianity from the inside i suppose i just don’t get that argument. What would his motive be for basically sacrificing his life to do so? The way he talks about Jews, bitterly castigated them for murdering the prophets and Christ-its seems to me he genuinely hates them and loves Jesus and seeks out a happier new world where the evils of sin and death have been eliminated.
Perhaps a lot of creativity a lot of effort and a deeply rooted dream can combine to look like that.
BTW this is the single most popular view among my fellow Muslims. Hard for me to bring across that I definitely think he was making things up as he went, and also that he seems to have clearly believed the stuff he made up as he went along. The clearest examples are his waffling changing answers about how soon christ is going to return and what to do in the meantime!!! But the very fact that he doesn’t expect those questions is what convinces me he believes himself. A truly deceptive liar would have planned contingencies.
BDEhrman
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