Stephen (and Robert):
Paul in the Pauline Letters grows out of the historical Paul in the works of Josephus…
Wait…what? I missed a step. Paul is in Josephus? Can someone help me here? A relevant passage perhaps?
Steefen:
Yes, Stephen, when I read the second passage after the TF, I thought of Paul. Robert is referring to Joseph Atwill saw the first passage after the TF referring to Jesus as well as the TF obviously referring to Jesus. Joseph Atwill did not tell me to think of Paul when I read the second passage after the TF. If Atwill saw what I or anybody else can see, good for him.
Then, in the last three or four years, Lydia and purple cloth and Paul in Acts gave me more reason to see the second passage after the TF was referring to Paul.
** you do not have permission to see this link **Necessity #4: The Wicked Man Who Left His Own Country for Rome in the Third Passage of the Testimonium Flavianum
The Jewish Affairs Passage, The Third Passage of the Testimonium Flavianum Three-Part Set
There was a man who was a Jew but had been driven away from his own country by an accusation laid against him for transgressing their laws and by the fear he was under of punishment for the same; but in all respects a wicked man. Living at Rome, he professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses.
He procured three other men, entirely of the same character with himself to be his partners.
These four men persuaded Fulvia, a woman of great dignity, and one who had embraced the Jewish religion, to send purple and gold to the Temple at Jerusalem. When the men had gotten the purple and gold, they employed them for their own uses and spent the money themselves (on which account it was that they at first required it of her).
Tiberius [who reigned 14-37 C.E., during the time of the ministry and crucifixion of the biblical Jesus Christ] was informed of the situation by Fulvia’s husband Saturnius [the name of Paulina’s husband in the prior passage]. Tiberius desired inquiry, then ordered all the Jews to be banished out of Rome. The two highest, annually elected, political officers of Rome listed four thousand men of all the Jews to be sent to the island of Sardinia but punished a greater number who were unwilling to become soldiers on account of keeping the laws of their forefathers. Thus, were these Jews banished out of the city by the wickedness of four men.
Josephus translated by William Whiston, The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18,
Chapter 3: “Sedition of the Jews against Pontius Pilate; Concerning Christ, and What Befell Paulina
and the Jews at Home,” Section 5, Lines 81-84, p. 481.
The Life of the Historical Paul
When we reached Jerusalem, the brothers welcomed us warmly.
The next day, Paul accompanied us on a visit to James, and all the presbyters were present.
He greeted them, then proceeded to tell them in detail what God had accomplished among the Gentiles through his ministry.
They praised God when they heard it but said to him, “Brother, you see how many thousands of believers there are from among the Jews, and they are all zealous observers of the law.
They have been informed that you are teaching all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to
abandon Moses …
… [T]he Jews from the province of Asia noticed him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd, and laid hands on him,
shouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us. This is the man who is teaching everyone everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and, what is more, he has even brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this sacred place.”
The whole city was in turmoil with people rushing together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the gates were closed.
While they were trying to kill him, a report reached the cohort commander that all Jerusalem
was rioting.
Three days after his arrival in the province, [Porcius Festus, procurator: 60-62 C.E.] went up from
Caesarea to Jerusalem
where the chief priests and Jewish leaders presented him their formal charges against Paul.
They asked him
as a favor to have him sent to Jerusalem, for they were plotting to kill him
along the way.
Festus replied that Paul was being held in custody in Caesarea and that he himself would be
returning there shortly.
He said, “Let your authorities come down with me, and if this man has done something improper, let them accuse him.”
[Paul had a hearing. Paul appealed to Caesar. Paul went to Rome.]
When [Paul] entered Rome, [he] was allowed to live by himself, with the soldier
who was guarding him.
Three days later, he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had gathered, he said to them, “My brothers, although I had done nothing against our people or our ancestral customers, I was handed over to the Romans as a prisoner from Jerusalem.
After trying my case, the Romans wanted to release me because they found nothing against me deserving the death penalty.
But when the Jews objected, I was obliged to appeal to Caesar, even though I had no accusation to make against my own nation.
“… But we should like to hear you present your views…”
So, they arranged a day with Paul and came to his lodgings in great numbers. From early morning until evening, he expounded his position to them, bearing witness to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus from the law of Moses…
Acts 21: 17-21, 27-28, 30-31; 25: 1-5; 28: 16-19, 22-23
Paul speaking:
I was crafty and got the better of you by deceit.
2 Corinthians 12: 16
COMMENTARY
The Law of Moses
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers;
only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death.
When you reap the harvest in your field and overlook a sheaf there, you shall not go back to get it;
let it be for the alien, the orphan or the widow that the Lord, your God, may bless you in all your undertakings.
When you knock down the fruit of your olive trees, you shall not go over the branches a second time;
let what remains be for the alien, the orphan, and the widow.
When you pick your grapes, you shall not go over the vineyard a second time;
let what remains be for the alien, the orphan, and the widow.
Deuteronomy 24:16, 19-21
Fairness and Mercy
[Excessive and severe punishment is disgraceful.]
You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out grain.
[Let it feed itself a little bit while it works. Do not be excessively greedy.]
Deuteronomy 25: [3]-4
In the passage following the Testimonium Flavianum, Josephus tells us a man exploited the pious for sex, a pious woman. In the passage after that he tells us a man, who could be the biblical Paul, exploited the pious for money, a pious Jewish woman.
The Life of the Biblical Paul
Am I saying this on human authority, or does not the law
also speak of these things?
It is written in the law of Moses [at Deuteronomy 25: 4],
“You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out grain.”
Is God concerned about oxen,
or is he not really speaking for our sake?
It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope
and the thresher in hope of receiving a share.
If we have sown spiritual seed for you, is it a great thing that we reap a material harvest
from you?
If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we still more?
1 Corinthians 9: 8-12
By misinterpreting the law of Moses at Deuteronomy 25: 3-4, the biblical Paul is doing as the Pauline figure had done in the second passage after the Testimonium Flavianum, and that is: exploiting the pious for a material harvest, money.
It would have been better if he had used Deuteronomy 24: 14-15
You shall not defraud a poor and needy hired servant, whether he be
one of your own countrymen or one of the aliens who live in your communities.
You shall pay him each day’s wages before sundown on the day itself, since
he is poor and looks forward to them. Otherwise, he will cry to the Lord against you,
and you will be held guilty.
Josephus has described Paul and has criticized Paul’s character. Paul misinterprets Hebrew scripture for material gain.
What has also been displayed is the lack of integrity in pulling scripture from Judaism into Pauline Christianity.
These four men persuaded Fulvia, a woman of great dignity, and one who had embraced the Jewish religion, to send purple and gold to the Temple at Jerusalem. When the men had gotten the purple and gold, they employed them for their own uses and spent the money themselves (on which account it was that they at first required it of her).
Josephus translated by William Whiston, The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18,
Chapter 3: “Sedition of the Jews against Pontius Pilate; Concerning Christ, and What Befell Paulina
and the Jews at Home,” Section 5, Lines 81-84, p. 481.
During [the] night Paul had a vision. A Macedonian stood before him and implored him with these words, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.”
When he had seen the vision, we sought passage to Macedonia at once, concluding that God had called us to proclaim the good news to them.
We set sail from Troas, making a straight run for Samothrace, and on the next day to Neapolis,
and from there to Philippi, a leading city in that district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We spent some time in that city.
Then, on the Sabbath day, we were walking outside the gate, beside a river, where there seemed to be a prayer gathering. And sitting down, we were speaking with the women who had assembled.
One of them, a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth, from the city of Thyatira, a worshiper of God, listened, and the Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what Paul was saying.
After she and her household had been baptized, she offered us an invitation, “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my home,” and she prevailed on us.
When they had come out of the prison, they went to Lydia’s house where they saw and encouraged the brothers, and then they left.
Acts of the Apostles 16:9-15, 40
Robert said
Steefen said
Who is Valentino Gasparini?Some Italian archaeologicst you cited here years ago as supporting your interpretation of Josephus. I guess you’ve forgotten him.
Well, he didn’t make it into my book or my ToDo pages for the second edition.
And I can see why not if he is saying Paul is connected to Paulina.
With Decius Mundus (savior of the world, Jesus) taking advantage of Paulina,
Then Decius Mundus (savior of the world, Jesus) took advantage of Paul.
Google AI Overview
- Analysis of Josephus on Social and Religious Issues: Gasparini has analyzed Josephus’s narratives regarding cultural identity and religious practices, such as his work on “Against Apion” concerning1 cultural identity.
- The Paulina and Decius Mundus Narrative: Gasparini has conducted research into the story of Paulina and Decius Mundus (as told by Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews 18.65–80), which involves deception, the cult of Isis, and the actions of priests, framing it within the context of “negotiating the body” and religious investment.
- Religious Agency and Cults: He has studied the role of religious agents, specifically examining the cult of Anubis in the Roman Empire.
And as we said earlier, the connection is Josephus to Paul in Acts of the Apostles.
So, back to Comment 18
Paul in the Pauline Letters grows out of the historical Paul in the works of Josephus…
Steefen:
Paul in Josephus
(to Paul in the Pauline Letters)
to Paul in Luke’s Acts of the Apostles
(I have to go somewhere. I’ll try to check what you all responded later.)
Steefen said
And as we said earlier, the connection is Josephus to Paul in Acts of the Apostles.
So, back to Comment 18
Paul in the Pauline Letters grows out of the historical Paul in the works of Josephus…
Steefen:
Paul in Josephus
(to Paul in the Pauline Letters)
to Paul in Luke’s Acts of the Apostles
(I have to go somewhere. I’ll try to check what you all responded later.)
Steefen, isn’t there a bit of circularity here, perhaps even a smidgeon of question begging?
Seems to me you do not derive your view from the sources so much as approach them viewpoint already intact. You are assuming a relationship between the sources without demonstrating it. A claim is not evidence. A claim requires evidence.
Steefen said
And as we said earlier, the connection is Josephus to Paul in Acts of the Apostles.
So, back to Comment 18
Paul in the Pauline Letters grows out of the historical Paul in the works of Josephus…
But the question is whether the evidence regarding the connection between Josephus to the Paul in Acts of the Apostles supports the Paul in the canonical Pauline epistles growing out of the historical Paul in the works of Josephus.
Their existence could, for example, simply be additional elaborations as the redactor/author of canonical Luke/Acts shows off that he has deeper historical knowledge than the redactor/author of rival proto-Luke.
This is, after all, one of the flaws of the AI slop style of “biblical controversies get clicks” youtubes … to provide (sometimes sketchy) evidence that something is possible, and then treat it as proven and build up the story (composed as if it was an argument) from that point on. Youtube selects for that, because the process of elaborating as many equally or more plausible alternative possibilities as can be worked out and then slowly going through whatever weak and shaky evidence can be brought to hand to point to a weak and shaky possibility of having a first among equals explanation, is not going to generate heaps of clicks.
The reasonably strong evidence that canonical Luke and canonical Acts both know Josephus is remarkable because reasonably strong evidence is so hard to find in this field … but while it is reasonably strong evidence regarding the front edge of the composition time window, if trying to use it for more than composition chronology, care is required that more likely explanations compatible with the same evidence has not been overlooked.
Stephen
Steefen, isn’t there a bit of circularity here, perhaps even a smidgeon of question begging?
Seems to me you do not derive your view from the sources so much as approach them viewpoint already intact. You are assuming a relationship between the sources without demonstrating it. A claim is not evidence. A claim requires evidence.
Steefen:
Paul is in the second passage after the TF.
Paul is in the Pauline Letters.
Paul is in Acts.
= = = =
Put these statements in chronological order. That must be done.
Comment 26
Bruce:
Does the evidence regarding the connection between
Paul in Josephus to the Paul in Acts of the Apostles
support the Paul in the canonical Pauline epistles?
Steefen:
It’s not supposed to. Paul in the Paulne epistles comes before Paul in the Acts of the Apostles.
Paul in the Pauline epistles is not reacting to Paul in the Acts of the Apostles.
Paul did not read Acts of the Apostles and reacted to it by writing autobiography to set the record straight.
Labergemann said
I am looking for good recommendations for an up to date critical scholarly commentary on Romans. None of the apologetics stuff. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance
Whatever commentary you pick, it must post-date the so-called “New Perspective on Paul”. If it does not cite E.P. Sanders, it is not worth reading.
Steefen:
Paul is in the second passage after the TF.
Paul is in the Pauline Letters.
Paul is in Acts.
= = = =
Put these statements in chronological order. That must be done.
It is doubtful that Josephus even knew who Paul was, much less that he had access to his letters.
The seven surviving letters from the historical Paul evince a milieu consonant with the middle of the first century. Jesus’ disciples are still active in Jerusalem. The Temple still stands.
Sometime in the latter third of the first century forgeries began to appear that address issues arising in the generation after the time of Paul.
Late in the first century or early in the second the author of a gospel writes a companion work attempting to elide any breach between the original Jewish community and later gentile converts. He takes as his hero, Paul, although he demonstrates little knowledge of Paul’s actual ideas, casting doubt on any knowledge of Paul’s letters.
That’s what the textual evidence says.
Steefen said
Comment 26
Bruce:
Does the evidence regarding the connection between
Paul in Josephus to the Paul in Acts of the Apostles
support the Paul in the canonical Pauline epistles?
Steefen:
It’s not supposed to. Paul in the Paulne epistles comes before Paul in the Acts of the Apostles.
Paul in the Pauline epistles is not reacting to Paul in the Acts of the Apostles.
Paul did not read Acts of the Apostles and reacted to it by writing autobiography to set the record straight.
You truncated my statement, which was a reference to your statement:
Paul in the Pauline Letters grows out of the historical Paul in the works of Josephus…
Where what I actually wrote was not “support the Paul in the canonical Pauline epistles?”, but rather,
… supports the Paul in the canonical Pauline epistles growing out of the historical Paul in the works of Josephus.
… writing pointing out that your claim at that point was something requiring supporting evidence.
Truncating what I wrote to pretend that I was making my own claim about Paul in the canonical Pauline epistles reacting to Paul in Acts, so that you could rebut that claim — which you fabricated — is not engaging in discussion.
While there may have been some later harmonization, I now tend to view the elaboration of the original Pauline epistles into the canonical Pauline epistles as a 2nd century stage preceding the composition of the extensive additions to the Evangelion that make up the majority of Luke and composition of its new companion, Acts of the Apostles.
Steefen:
Paul is in the second passage after the TF.
Paul is in the Pauline Letters.
Paul is in Acts.
= = = =
Put these statements in chronological order. That must be done.
Stephen said
It is doubtful that Josephus even knew who Paul was, much less that he had access to his letters.
The seven surviving letters from the historical Paul evince a milieu consonant with the middle of the first century. Jesus’ disciples are still active in Jerusalem. The Temple still stands.
Sometime in the latter third of the first century forgeries began to appear that address issues arising in the generation after the time of Paul.
Late in the first century or early in the second the author of a gospel writes a companion work attempting to elide any breach between the original Jewish community and later gentile converts. He takes as his hero, Paul, although he demonstrates little knowledge of Paul’s actual ideas, casting doubt on any knowledge of Paul’s letters.
That’s what the textual evidence says.
Steefen:
Antiquities of the Jews / Josephus certainly knew who Paul was. You know my argument on that.
Josephus was alive in the middle of the first century.
“The author of a gospel who writes a companion work” is a reference to GLuke and Acts.
Textual evidence that is off topic or an attempt to sidestep the issue does not help you.
BruceR’s question is whether the evidence regarding the connection between Josephus to the Paul in Acts of the Apostles supports the Paul in the canonical Pauline epistles growing out of the historical Paul in the works of Josephus.
becomes simply the question BruceR highlighted:
Does the evidence regarding the connection between Josephus to the Paul in Acts of the Apostles
support the Paul in the canonical Pauline epistles (growing out of the historical Paul in the works of Josephus)?
Steefen
Yes. Josephus criticizes the character of Paul. Paul admits
Paul speaking:
I was crafty and got the better of you by deceit.
2 Corinthians 12: 16
Steefen:
Antiquities of the Jews / Josephus certainly knew who Paul was. You know my argument on that.
You made a claim. Not an argument.
Paul speaking:
I was crafty and got the better of you by deceit.
2 Corinthians 12: 16
Read the passage in context. You seem blind to irony.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
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Robert
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