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Sin sacrifice
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jakejones

223 Posts
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June 3, 2022 - 5:29 am

If my memory is correct, Dr Ehrman said that the historical Jesus did not see himself as a sin sacrifice. 

 

how did the sin sacrifice idea come about?

 

from being martyred to becoming an offering for sin? 

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Robert
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June 7, 2022 - 8:33 am
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Stephen
4490 Posts
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June 7, 2022 - 9:58 am

One can’t help but wonder how far back these ideas go into a darker age of human sacrifice.  If we take the hints in the Hebrew Bible this practice lasted for a long time.  ** you do not have permission to see this link ** One of the insights from these scholars is that the term Moloch, traditionally described as a divinity to whom folks sacrificed their first born, was instead a type of human sacrifice devoted to several ancient near eastern divinities, including it appears – yikes! – Yahweh himself.  They also show how the practice of circumcision probably originated as a substitute for sacrifice.  This is all still very controversial in some quarters but then so is the idea that the religious practices of ancient Israel came out of an ancient near eastern context.  

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JAS

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June 7, 2022 - 2:02 pm

Speaking for myself, that seems like a fair trade. Of course, I am also the youngest in my family rather than the oldest, but that sacrifice would be okay too.

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Jarek

936 Posts
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June 7, 2022 - 2:21 pm

Stephen said
One can’t help but wonder how far back these ideas go into a darker age of human sacrifice.  If we take the hints in the Hebrew Bible this practice lasted for a long time.  ** you do not have permission to see this link ** One of the insights from these scholars is that the term Moloch, traditionally described as a divinity to whom folks sacrificed their first born, was instead a type of human sacrifice devoted to several ancient near eastern divinities, including it appears – yikes! – Yahweh himself.  They also show how the practice of circumcision probably originated as a substitute for sacrifice.  This is all still very controversial in some quarters but then so is the idea that the religious practices of ancient Israel came out of an ancient near eastern context.  

  

The deity of Moloch, however, never existed, and the name arose from a misinterpretation of the Hebrew group “lmlk”.
“lmlk” – “to molek” meant the kind of sacrifice made by the king outside the city.
The “lmlk” seals, on the other hand, were on measuring jugs used to collect tax in kind for the king.

One should appreciate the depth of religious confidence and piety dictated by devotion that characterized people willing to sacrifice their children to God. It is no coincidence that the sacrifice of children or the willingness to make such sacrifice is often considered a glory in the Bible: this is the case of the sacrifice of Isaac (Genesis 22: 1-18) or the sacrifice of the daughter of Jephthah (Judg 11: 30-40). The molk sacrifice site, called tofet, was located outside the city walls in the Valley of Hinnom (see Map 10) and therefore away from the Temple, indicating its distinctiveness from the Temple worship. It is possible that the reason he was “led out” of the city was the habit of killing children:

Łukasz Niesiołowski-Spanò, Krystyna Stebnicka. History of the Jews in Antiquity. From Thotmes to Muhammad (Kindle Locations 3693-3698). Polish Scientific Publishers PWN.

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danceswithwombats

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June 9, 2022 - 11:10 pm

Robert said
Stanley Stowers and others in the Paul within Judaism school point to the importance of martyrdom as a kind of sacrifice that purifies others in Judaism, for example, in 4th Maccabees, which was written around about the time of Paul’s letters. This is a discourse about the story of resistance against Antiochus Epiphanes’ attempt to introduce pagan customs in the temple. Seven brothers, their mother and the elderly Eleazar suffer martyrdom instead of eating pork sacrificed to idols. In Eleazar’s prayer he says, “You know, O God, that though I might have saved myself, I am dying in burning torments for the sake of the law. Be merciful to your people, and let our punishment suffice for them (ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν). Make my blood their purification (καθάρσιον), and take my life in exchange for theirs (ἀντίψυχον αὐτῶν)” (4 Macc. 6:27-29). The author concludes that “because of them our enemies did not rule over our nation, the tyrant was punished, and the homeland purified (τὴν πατρίδα καθαρισθῆναι) – they having become, as it were, a ransom (ἀντίψυχος) for the sin of our nation. And through the blood of those devout ones and their death as an expiation (τοῦ ἱλαστηρίου), divine Providence preserved Israel that previously had been afflicted” (4 Macc. 17:20-22).

  

Could this martyr Eleazar be a source for the Lazarus in Luke’s parable and/or John’s miracle?

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JAS

948 Posts
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June 10, 2022 - 6:21 am

In Cannibals and Kings, Marvin Harris makes some arguments for infanticide having been used as a means of population control, but I seem to recall that he was mostly talking about female infanticide. It has been a long time since I read the book, and I am not sure how well his theories have aged.

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Robert
7064 Posts
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June 10, 2022 - 6:45 am
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