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The Non-Authentic Letters of Paul Were Written before AD 70 because None of Them Refer to a Gospel of Mark?
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Steefen
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September 7, 2021 - 1:55 am

The Non-Authentic Letters of Paul Were Written before AD 70 because None of Them Refer to a Gospel of Mark?

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Steefen
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September 7, 2021 - 2:03 am

Thirteen letters are attributed to Paul
(The seven that are “authentic” have an asterisk.)

Romans   *

1 Corinthians   *

2 Corinthians   *

Galatians   *

Ephesians

Philippians   *

Colossians

1 Thessalonians   *

2 Thessalonians

1 Timothy

2 Timothy

Titus

Philemon   *

= = =

Ephesians – AD 62

Colossians – AD 62

2 Thessalonians – 51-52 AD or 80-115 AD

1 Timothy – the late 1st century or the first half of the 2nd century AD

2 Timothy – 64 or 65 AD

Titus – 64 – 65 AD

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Steefen
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September 7, 2021 - 2:05 am

So, scholars who date 2 Thessalonians 80-115 AD see references to Mark?

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Stephen
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September 7, 2021 - 3:31 pm

Why would you expect the Pauline forgeries to refer to Mark?  

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Steefen
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September 7, 2021 - 9:39 pm

Stephen said
Why would you expect the Pauline forgeries to refer to Mark?  

  

Yes, you are on vacation. The line of reasoning in this thread discusses a possible reference to gospels IF the non-authentic letters date after the gospels.

There is possibly one:

scholars who date 2 Thessalonians 80-115 AD see references to Mark?

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Stephen
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September 7, 2021 - 10:56 pm

The line of reasoning in this thread discusses a possible reference to gospels IF the non-authentic letters date after the gospels.

And my line of reasoning is that the Pauline forgeries cannot be prior to the First Revolt and the fact they don’t refer to Mark is irrelevant.  

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charrua

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September 8, 2021 - 5:32 pm

About 2 Thess:

 

2 Thess 1:6-9

“God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you  and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.”

“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.”

“They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord.”

 

This is not Paul, that’s Revelation language ,2 Thess was probably forged in those times.

 

2 Thess 2:1-2

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us”.

 

They forged 2 Thess suggesting that 1 Thess was forged.

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Steefen
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September 8, 2021 - 6:01 pm

Stephen said
The line of reasoning in this thread discusses a possible reference to gospels IF the non-authentic letters date after the gospels.

 

And my line of reasoning is that the Pauline forgeries cannot be prior to the First Revolt and the fact they don’t refer to Mark is irrelevant.  

  

Your line of reasoning is that the Pauline forgeries cannot be before AD 70.

The dates I provided seem to be based on scholarly dating of the non-authentic letters.

Tell us or remind us why those dates were rejected.

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Steefen
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September 8, 2021 - 6:03 pm

Guillermo Mondon said
About 2 Thess:

 

2 Thess 1:6-9

“God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you  and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.”

“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.”

“They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord.”

 

This is not Paul, that’s Revelation language ,2 Thess was probably forged in those times.

 

2 Thess 2:1-2

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us”.

 

They forged 2 Thess suggesting that 1 Thess was forged.

  

Thank you for the reply.

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JAS

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September 9, 2021 - 6:14 am

I fully understand that it is commonly done, and much accepted scholarship is based on the practice, but it can be very problematic to assign authorship purely based on style. In literary circles, similar studies have often been done to try to assign the authorship of unsigned material. With such an approach, many years ago, a number of works were very prominently announced as being by Shakespeare, all of which ultimately had to be retracted (but not until after the scholar in question got promotion and collected a fair amount of money for publicizing the idea). For my own specialty, we know that a certain author wrote many (often short) unsigned items based on purely external (and more reliable) evidence, but stylistically they are not all that similar. One item that is stylistically very much like this same author is generally dismissed because the author himself said it was not his in a surviving letter of unquestionable authenticity. (The claim, however, may not be what it appears to be since it may have been self-serving for other reasons. It is also possible that this author had started the item, which is a review published in a magazine where he had been an editor, and that it was completed by someone else after he had left, meaning that it may be his and not his at the same time.) The bottom line is that these things are complicated, and it turns out that authors, particularly those who write a lot, often write in different styles (or even sets of styles) for different purposes. This difficulty may be more true of people who write for a living, and in a more modern context.

And maybe Paul was just in a bad mood when he wrote the letters that sound less like him. People are not machines, and we are often simply not consistent. The answer must often be that here is the argument (or arguments), but we cannot be sure. If we could be sure, most of the time, many professional scholars would essentially be out of a job (or at least find it harder to publish).

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Robert
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September 9, 2021 - 8:45 am
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JAS

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September 9, 2021 - 9:06 am

Robert said
The deutero-Pauline letters are not merely stylistically different but also presuppose an historically later church structure and evidence differing theological concerns. 

  

And all of those arguments would be much more interesting than questions of style.

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