if jesus’ punishment appeases justice, then jesus DESERVED punishment
thom stark wrote :
Paul identifies the death of Jesus as a “hilasterion” (Rom 3:25), which is a propitiatory sacrifice meant to appease an angry deity. Moreover, in the Gospels Jesus himself regularly cites the Isaian Suffering Servant as predictive of his death, investing it with a sacrificial, propitiatory meaning
if an angry diety is appeased only by the VIOLENT bloody execution of himself and thinks his violent punishment atones for sins, then in my opinion, the romans who punished him CANNOT be guilty of sinful actions
GUILT
noun
1.
the fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law; culpability:
He admitted his guilt.
are christians willing to admit that the crucifixion of thier god was a crime? are they willing to admit that something which appeases thier god and atones for sins = wrong? was god nailing himself using roman actions? if yes, then romans cannot be GUILTY of crime, right?
I think your question is very difficult answer. Do you mean that the Romans committed some legal crime? If so, which one? Some Christian lawyers claim that Jesus was unjustly prosecuted. You can find an old book on the subject at ** you do not have permission to see this link **. The details of Roman or Jewish law seem beside the point to me. Jesus was charged with a crime, and he did not defend himself. It is hard to blame the Romans for finding him guilty.
Do you mean a moral crime? By modern standards, crucifixion would violate anyone’s human rights, but I don’t think that is your point.
but it is the christians who are changing crucifixion to divine punishment. they say only divine punishment can appease a diety because human punishments are done by sinful humans. so does this mean god converted roman punishment acts into divine acts?
That is a theological question and therefore above my pay grade. Christian apologists say: “Jesus had to be very careful about when and where he revealed his deity so that he could accomplish his mission of sacrificial atonement. If he had been too overt with his claims and miraculous proof, they might not have killed him. But if he had been too reserved, there would have been little proof that he was really God, and he may not have attracted a large enough following to spread his message.” Norman L. Geisler & Frank Turek, I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist 349 (Crossway 2004).
Seems to me that, if Jesus had to carefully plan for the crucifixion to happen, then he should accept responsibility for it. But it is still a theological question, and I do not know how many angels can dance on the head of a crucifixion nail.
Luke (23:34) has Jesus say, “Father, forgive them, *for they know not what they do.*” So, if they did not realize they were killing a divine being, or an innocent man, whichever Luke believes he was, the Roman soldiers could not be morally guilty of something they didn’t know they were doing. But crucifixion was an especially brutal act and I think any Jew would have considered it a sin to crucify anyone and then deny him a decent burial.
“Seems to me that, if Jesus had to carefully plan for the crucifixion to happen, then he should accept responsibility for it. But it is still a theological question, and I do not know how many angels can dance on the head of a crucifixion nail.”
have you ever heard born again christians say that we are all guilty of killing jesus? i started the op because i was trying to address this strange claim of theirs.
if a god went willingly to die for crimes of past, present and future rapists, thieves, murderers etc then there was nothing in my power and control to prevent such a god from brutally dying. and if such a god has already atoned for me in killing him, then there is nothing to be guilty about.
Some Christians believe babies go to hell. “As for the justice of God according to this view, it is argued that God justly condemns the whole human race because of Adam’s sin (Romans 5:12-21). We are all sinners by nature (Ephesians 2:3), who deserve eternal hell.” Norman L Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics 361 (Baker Academic 2007). Therefore, Jesus had to sacrifice himself in order to save us.
I’m certain there other Christians who believe babies do not go to hell, but it is still our fault that Jesus had to die on the cross. I really don’t care.
Bert discussed that the earliest manuscripts did not have this pray in Luke forgiving them.
I seek truth here which is why I am hearing what Dr. Ehrmen is researching. To me the question is was he God himself or not? Paul’s scriptures are all near the council of Nicea which is the view of evangelicals today so I do not know if I can trust them.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert