With Jesus Gone, Why Would Followers of Jesus in Judea and Galilee and Churches outside of Judea and Galilee Need to Be Persecuted by Pharisees?
Pros
#1 If they were remembering him by re-enacting the Last Supper – violation of Leviticus 17: 10-11
#2 The only problem with Jesus was that he was advocating a kingdom within Judea and Galilee unauthorized by the Roman Empire.
That kingdom may have been seen to be larger than the Roman Empire, a global kingdom preceded by Judgement of all individuals in the world.
This also had the seeds of insurrection which Jewish leaders wanted to avoid with the Roman Empire.
#3 Look at the gospel verses that say, “from that point on, they plotted to kill Jesus.”
#4 Followers of Jesus were taught to go beyond externalities, public appearances, before respecting people and institutions as holy.
This taught people to question authority: pharisees, Temple authorities, Rome.
#5 Following the Son of Man or the Son of God upset the status quo and how the religious institutions of Ancient Judaism set up their hierarchy:
Torah and Temple, not Torah, Temple, and Messiah. Advancing Judaism as Jesus did and incorporating innovative ways of Jesus was not going to be endorsed.
#6 Jesus likely would be proven to be a false apocalyptic prophet (Deut. 18: 20-22). Just let there be no Great Judgment after Tribulation or no Glorious Kingdom after Tribulation and Great Judgment, Jesus himself would be judged as misleading the “children” of Abraham.
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Are there reasons why followers of Jesus should not have been persecuted by pharisees, for example, Saul?
You might as well ask, with Jesus gone, why did he still have followers? Had the movement died with Jesus, it would have been a very different matter. The persecution was presumably intended to try to make the movement go away and to try to prevent from happening precisely what did happen — that is, the growth of the movement.
With Jesus Gone, Why Would Followers of Jesus in Judea and Galilee and Churches outside of Judea and Galilee Need to Be Persecuted by Pharisees?
Pros
#1 If they were remembering him by re-enacting the Last Supper – violation of ** you do not have permission to see this link **
#2 The only problem with Jesus was that he was advocating a kingdom within Judea and Galilee unauthorized by the Roman Empire.
That kingdom may have been seen to be larger than the Roman Empire, a global kingdom preceded by Judgement of all individuals in the world.
This also had the seeds of insurrection which Jewish leaders wanted to avoid with the Roman Empire.
#3 Look at the gospel verses that say, “from that point on, they plotted to kill Jesus.”
#4 Followers of Jesus were taught to go beyond externalities, public appearances, before respecting people and institutions as holy.
This taught people to question authority: pharisees, Temple authorities, Rome.
#5 Following the Son of Man or the Son of God upset the status quo and how the religious institutions of Ancient Judaism set up their hierarchy:
Torah and Temple, not Torah, Temple, and Messiah. Advancing Judaism as Jesus did and incorporating innovative ways of Jesus was not going to be endorsed.
#6 Jesus likely would be proven to be a false apocalyptic prophet (** you do not have permission to see this link **). Just let there be no Great Judgment after Tribulation or no Glorious Kingdom after Tribulation and Great Judgment, Jesus himself would be judged as misleading the “children” of Abraham.
New:
#7 A convicted and crucified Jesus should not be venerated as a Jewish messiah.
Why should God resurrect him? [I would add, Why should God resurrect someone who disobeyed Leviticus 17:10-11.]
#8 There should have been no more followers after Jesus’ conviction and crucifixion.
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The plot against Jesus was settled before the Last Supper: God rejected Jesus before the Last Supper disobedience–in the Synoptic Gospels, not in gospel of John, Jesus was insisting literal consumption of body and blood.
So, with the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus must have done something bad for the Owner of the Vineyard to allow his Son to be killed by the Wicked Tenants.
Answer: Apocalypticism was a failed hypothesis, so too the God concept and theology of apocalypticism.
The Leviticus 17:10-11 disobedience cannot be presented if the Apocalyptic notion of God is faulty: a God who loves his Messiah would not allow his son to fall victim of a capital punishment plot.
The Jesus prayer for his disciples in John just does not work: God loves his Son and those he gave to his Son.
Really? No.
Steefen said
Answer: Apocalypticism was a failed hypothesis, so too the God concept and theology of apocalypticism.The Leviticus 17:10-11 disobedience cannot be presented if the Apocalyptic notion of God is faulty: a God who loves his Messiah would not allow his son to fall victim of a capital punishment plot.
The Jesus prayer for his disciples in John just does not work: God loves his Son and those he gave to his Son.
Really? No.
So, Christianity did not grow to be one of the most successful religions in history? I really think you are missing the whole point.
JAS said
Steefen said
Answer: Apocalypticism was a failed hypothesis, so too the God concept and theology of apocalypticism.
The Leviticus 17:10-11 disobedience cannot be presented if the Apocalyptic notion of God is faulty: a God who loves his Messiah would not allow his son to fall victim of a capital punishment plot.
The Jesus prayer for his disciples in John just does not work: God loves his Son and those he gave to his Son.
Really? No.
So, Christianity did not grow to be one of the most successful religions in history? I really think you are missing the whole point.
You are missing the point of integrity.
Christianity would be successful if it fulfilled its initial claims: Tribulation followed by Judgement followed by Glorious Kingdom on Earth.
Steefen, this is bizarre argumentation even by your standards. I doubt that there is a single Christian on the planet who shares your concerns. It is you who is missing the point.
If you want to argue that the claims made by Christianity seem to you to be untrue, you are perfectly entitled to express your personal response. But to say that Christianity as a movement hasn’t been wildly successful, in any meaningful sense of the word, is simply denying reality.
JAS said
Steefen, this is bizarre argumentation even by your standards. I doubt that there is a single Christian on the planet who shares your concerns. It is you who is missing the point.If you want to argue that the claims made by Christianity seem to you to be untrue, you are perfectly entitled to express your personal response. But to say that Christianity as a movement hasn’t been wildly successful, in any meaningful sense of the word, is simply denying reality.
You made your point. It wasn’t missed.
With Jesus Gone, Why Would Followers of Jesus in Judea and Galilee and Churches outside of Judea and Galilee Need to Be Persecuted by Pharisees?
Pros
#1 If they were remembering him by re-enacting the Last Supper – violation of ** you do not have permission to see this link **
#2 The only problem with Jesus was that he was advocating a kingdom within Judea and Galilee unauthorized by the Roman Empire.
That kingdom may have been seen to be larger than the Roman Empire, a global kingdom preceded by Judgement of all individuals in the world.
This also had the seeds of insurrection which Jewish leaders wanted to avoid with the Roman Empire.
#3 Look at the gospel verses that say, “from that point on, they plotted to kill Jesus.”
#4 Followers of Jesus were taught to go beyond externalities, public appearances, before respecting people and institutions as holy.
This taught people to question authority: pharisees, Temple authorities, Rome.
#5 Following the Son of Man or the Son of God upset the status quo and how the religious institutions of Ancient Judaism set up their hierarchy:
Torah and Temple, not Torah, Temple, and Messiah. Advancing Judaism as Jesus did and incorporating innovative ways of Jesus was not going to be endorsed.
#6 Jesus likely would be proven to be a false apocalyptic prophet (** you do not have permission to see this link **). Just let there be no Great Judgment after Tribulation or no Glorious Kingdom after Tribulation and Great Judgment, Jesus himself would be judged as misleading the “children” of Abraham.
#7 A convicted and crucified Jesus should not be venerated as a Jewish messiah.
Why should God resurrect him? [I would add, Why should God resurrect someone who disobeyed ** you do not have permission to see this link **.]
#8 There should have been no more followers after Jesus’ conviction and crucifixion.
New:
#9 The Hellenists likely had the same views as Stephen who angered those who killed him. A man convicted by the Sanhedrin which recommended his death cannot be sitting at the right hand of God.
Robert said
You’re missing what is probably the main reason that Paul and other Jews would have opposed Jesus’ followers. They were proclaiming that a convicted, crucified man, a type of person that God himself cursed in the Jewish scriptures, was the Messiah whom God had raised from the dead.
A. The Jewish community who followed Jesus were proclaiming that a convicted, crucified man, a type of person
that God himself cursed in the Jewish scriptures, was the Messiah whom God had raised from the dead.
B. The Hellenistic community who followed Jesus were proclaiming that a convicted, crucified man, a type of person
that God himself cursed in the Jewish scriptures, was the Messiah whom God had raised from the dead.
C. Both communities …
Robert, which one: A, B, or C?
Question sent to Bart D.E.
I used the search field for “How many followers did Jesus have?”
I did not see the answer I remember you giving a while back. I seem to recall you suggesting the historical Jesus did not have as many followers as the Jesus of the gospels.
You did not divide those followers into Jewish followers and Hellenist followers, like Stephen and the six other leading Hellenists.
There is mention of the exemplary faith of the Roman centurion, but the gospels do not seem to indicate how Hellenists came to be so impressed with Jesus that they would follow him and organize themselves into a community.
Were the Hellenists first proselytes like Queen Helena or were they Gentiles who did not want to convert to Judaism?
TWO QUESTIONS
1) How many followers did you think the historical Jesus have? (Was it less than 100?)
(In the gospels, I knew of the 12 who left their wives behind and the 72 (Luke 10:1) who were sent out ahead of Jesus to every town and place He was about to visit.)
2) Of the followers that would go through the trouble of setting up a Jesus community, approximately, how many were Jewish vs. Hellenist (like Stephen and Prochorus)?
Dr. Ehrman is not your personal research assistant, especially for every crackpot idea that you propose. We can probably be sure that the number was fairly small, but giving precise values is not likely to be practical since there is no census of such a thing, or even a clear definition of who would qualify at that point. There were apparently a fair number of people who had heard Jesus speak, and may have found what he said of interest, but how many would count themselves as followers, or would do so over time? At that point, what would they even be following? You seem to be seeking an unreasonable degree of specificity.
Steefen said
Question sent to Bart D.E.I used the search field for “How many followers did Jesus have?”
I did not see the answer I remember you giving a while back. I seem to recall you suggesting the historical Jesus did not have as many followers as the Jesus of the gospels.
You did not divide those followers into Jewish followers and Hellenist followers, like Stephen and the six other leading Hellenists.
There is mention of the exemplary faith of the Roman centurion, but the gospels do not seem to indicate how Hellenists came to be so impressed with Jesus that they would follow him and organize themselves into a community.
Were the Hellenists first proselytes like Queen Helena or were they Gentiles who did not want to convert to Judaism?
TWO QUESTIONS
1) How many followers did you think the historical Jesus have? (Was it less than 100?)
(In the gospels, I knew of the 12 who left their wives behind and the 72 (Luke 10:1) who were sent out ahead of Jesus to every town and place He was about to visit.)
2) Of the followers that would go through the trouble of setting up a Jesus community, approximately, how many were Jewish vs. Hellenist (like Stephen and Prochorus)?
Bart D.E.
By “followers” do you mean people walking around with him?
Maybe 15-20?
People who were completely committed to his teachings during his lifetime? Surely fewer than 100. Not 13,000 as in the Gospel of Mark! (5000 men fed, not counting the women and children!)
There weren’t any Jesus communities in his day. After his resurrection, the first community was Jewish, in Jerusalem. There may have been others in Judea and Galilee, but there’s not much evidence of it. The ones we know about are primarily or entirely Gentile.
Steefen
1) How many followers did you think the historical Jesus had? (Was it less than 100?)
(In the gospels, I knew of the 12 who left their wives behind and the 72 (** you do not have permission to see this link **) who were sent out ahead of Jesus to every town and place He was about to visit.)
2) Of the followers that would go through the trouble of setting up a Jesus community, approximately, how many were Jewish vs. Hellenist (like Stephen and Prochorus)?
Bart D.E.
By “followers” do you mean people walking around with him?
Maybe 15-20?
People who were completely committed to his teachings during his lifetime? Surely fewer than 100. Not 13,000 as in the Gospel of Mark! (5000 men fed, not counting the women and children!)
There weren’t any Jesus communities in his day. After his resurrection, the first community was Jewish, in Jerusalem. There may have been others in Judea and Galilee, but there’s not much evidence of it. The ones we know about are primarily or entirely Gentile.
Bart does not seem to be calling Stephen and Prochorus proselytes who would be under Jewish religious authority! ! !
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Steefen
15-20 would be 12 disciples, Mary and Martha of Bethany, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus (16).
Inner circle followers: 15-20
Outer circle followers: fewer than 100.
“After his resurrection, the first community was Jewish, in Jerusalem.”
Jewish: I guess Bart is talking about the disciple community in the upper room (gospel of John).
Primarily Gentile: I guess is acknowledging Stephen and Prochorus’s community.
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