I understand that the contemporary Talmud writings speak of Christian-Jewish relations, which I take was bad blood on both sides.
That Jews created a creed for a suspect christian-jew to recite to make sure he is not a follower of Jesus.
It is interesting what information can be gleaned from these testimonials.
There are no contemporary Talmudic writings on Jesus or the first few generations of Christians. There are writings from several centuries later, which are of questionable historical veracity, and are mostly useful in determining Jewish attitudes towards Christianity.
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I’m rather reminded of Salman Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses.
godspell said
“There are writings from several centuries later, which are of questionable historical veracity, and are mostly useful in determining Jewish attitudes towards Christianity.”
Jewish attitudes toward Christianity cannot be understood without taking into account the Holocaust, the Spanish Inquisition, pogroms, forced conversions, and countless atrocities committed in Christianity’s name.
Information related to the first post of this thread can be found at ** you do not have permission to see this link **. The recitation referred to is one of the blessings of the Shemoneh Esrei; Birkat HaMinim. It is a later insertion meant to make it difficult for a heretic (minim) to pronounce.
In my personal Siddur (the Koren Siddur, pg 218), it reads:
“For the slanderers let there be no hope,
and may all wickedness perish in an instant.
May all Your people’s enemies swiftly be cut down.
May You swiftly uproot, crush, cast down
and humble the arrogant swiftly in our days.
Blessed are You, Lord,
Who destroys enemies and humbles the arrogant.”
The point I am wanting to make by posting this portion of the prayer is the last full sentence. “Blessed are You, Lord, Who destroys enemies and humbles the arrogant.” The destruction of the enemies of our people is left solely in the hands of Hashem, and not in our own hands. It is not even the place of any Jew to humble another person. That is all in that hands of, and according to the will of G-d.
In the face of countless persecutions, executions, humiliations and atrocities committed in the name of Christianity, our prayers remind us that it is solely in the hands of the Eternal our G-d to humble the arrogant and destroy our enemies. That is not ours to do.
This is what our prayers and our writings teach us.
godspell said
That’s precisely what I meant, and not sure how dgorden concluded otherwise.Sadly, one of the things Christianity inherited from Judaism is the notion of collective guilt, even though Jesus himself seems to have rejected it.
My apologies for the confusion. I read the word “contemporary” and extrapolated that to current times. (My bad).
There was some personal zeal raised from the posting due to the all too common misunderstanding that the Talmud and other Jewish writings contain a hatred of non-Jews (especially Christians) which includes such ridiculous accusations as instructions on how to make matzah using the blood of christian babies. (I am not accusing anyone here of any such beliefs or of promoting such ideas).
I would like to comment on “one of the things Christianity inherited from Judaism is the notion of collective guilt.” I think Christianity did a good job of this on its own. Judaism does not believe in original sin, that the sin of Adam is passed on to all mankind. On the contrary, in Judaism everyone is born with a perfectly clean slate and no atonement is needed because of Adam.
Judaism believes in personal guilt and in personal repentance; it is not an idea unique to Jesus or Christianity.
One hand can’t wash the other, dgorden. Christianity’s many sins are its own burden to carry, but let’s not pretend that at least some if its worst tendencies don’t come from the Old Testament writings they appropriated–and did not entirely misunderstand. The OT is not, in the main, about forgiveness and tolerance–even towards other Jews who disagree with its authors.
Don’t talk about what all members or this or that group believe (religious or otherwise). It’s never true. Speak for your own Judaism, not other people’s. It is self-evident Jews believe many conflicting things, as Christians do–and that both groups contain both very good and very evil people.
I consider Jews of good will my brethren more than the many Catholics lacking it. But I suppose we must acknowledge that regardless of religion and race, we are all one deeply dysfunctional family, and none of us is in a terribly good position to throw stones. (And what was with all the stone throwing back then, if I might kvetch?)
My apologies; it is not my intent to castigate people on this site or cast all persons of any label as being monolithic in their beliefs, habits, actions or attitudes. I think an examination of history will bear out that most people who committed atrocities did so wearing a religious label and not adhering to the tenets of the faith they claim to hold. (enough said. We are closer to being on the same page than you may imagine.)
“The OT is not, in the main, about forgiveness and tolerance–even towards other Jews who disagree with its authors.”
This would be a great topic for another thread. It is my understanding that Marcion even went so far as to claim that G-d of the Old Testament was not the same as the G-d of the New Testament because of what he saw as harshness in the Scriptures.
One of the reasons I am on this site is due to my own exploration of the theme of forgiveness and atonement in the Scriptures. Many Christians who have tried to convert me (no I am not talking about anyone on this site, in this forum or connected to anyone here in any way) have confronted me with their perception that forgiveness is not even possible outside of Christianity. I have been so fascinated by their personal conviction that I have been learning all I can about how different religions view sin, forgiveness and atonement.
Anyway, enough said on my part and I sincerely hope that I am not ruffling feathers or sounding argumentative.
I didn’t feel castigated, just misunderstood, but no doubt I also have misunderstood on many occasions. (Not as many as some here might think, and maybe they should worry about the log in their own eye, as should we all.)
I am not a big fan of Marcion, based on what little I’ve read about him, and this fatuous remark of his does nothing to change my opinion.
I am by no means saying that there isn’t a strain of forgiveness and reconciliation in the OT, but it exists alongside a much harsher self-seeking strain of belief, hardened by centuries of conflict with neighboring peoples and within the Jewish people themselves.
This is almost certainly true of all traditions–once something attracts enough adherents, all the basic personality types will be found within it. Sheep and goats, wheat and chaff. But nobody ever thinks of themselves as the chaff.
This was Jesus’ critique of Judaism, his own faith, the one he died believing in, the one he believed came closest to what God intended, but still he found much to disparage among his fellow Jews, including some who held high positions. (I think it likely the gospels tend to exaggerate this divide, but of course so do the later Talmudic writings about Jesus. Evil begets evil.)
In the end, he trusted the character of individuals more than the character of groups. Being a Jew is no guarantor of righteousness, being gentile is no guarantor of its absence (Vad Yashem alone has provided ample evidence of this eternal truth). Our beliefs are far less important than how we act upon them. Our true nature is revealed not in profession but in praxis. Your neighbor is the the one who helps you, or even more importantly, whoever needs help you can give.
Good enough?
dgorden said
Good enough? Certainly. As I said before, I am certain that we are closer together than you think.I still think sin, forgiveness and atonement contrasted in the testaments would be a fascinating thread.
Jesus didn’t invent forgiveness, nor did monotheists in general.
It is a religious concept, though. There is little basis for it in a purely Darwinian universe. Though I think some of the other social animals do practice it (without conceptualizing, which might be better, I sometimes think).
One hand can’t wash the other…
How the hell else can you do it?
I have a close friend who only found out her mother was Jewish when she was already in her twenties. (She was raised Roman Catholic.) When she and her husband were planning for their first child she made the mistake of asking me whether or not she should raise the kid Christian or Jewish. I told her to raise her kid Jewish because Judaism is much less batshit crazy than Christianity but then I am hardly objective, having been raised by hardcore fundamentalists.
There’s nothing original In Jesus’ pronouncements. It always pays to have good writers. Like Isaiah.
Obviously not referring to hands attached to the same body–man, this is a nitpicky forum even by internet standards. 🙄
There’s nothing original, period, if originality means “Nobody ever said anything remotely like this before.” And plenty of threads here insist the OT borrowed everything. Usually based on a very bad understanding of both the OT and the supposed influences. As you have demonstrated here. (And not very originally.)
And my sympathies for the lousy childhood, but suppose you’d been raised by followers of Meir Kahane? Not that he’s the worst case scenario, by any means. Might have been preferable to Madolyn Murray O’Hair, but you’d have to ask her son, the Right Reverend William J. Murray. Her other scion is unavailable for questioning in the realm of the living. Charming family.
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Snark not, lest ye be snarked.
😀
JoshuaBl said
Niv,What do you mean? The Talmudim famously contain very little information on both Jesus and Christianity. However, what material there is tends to be quite derogatory.
See Peter Schaefer’s Jesus in the Talmud for the best summary.
He left two things out.
I.
Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 105a. This should have been added to his coverage of Jesus and Ancient Egyptian magic/sorcery. Ancient Egyptian creation myths are related to Sanhedrin 105a. Here, Balaam is Jesus because after reading Numbers chapters 22-24, it would not be the Balaam of the Torah who was practicing Egyptian sorcery but Jesus.
II.
Rabbi Simeon ben Lakish said: Woe unto “him who makes himself alive by the name of god.”
Rabbi Johanan (ben Zakkai) replied: Woe to the nation that attempting to hinder the Holy One when he accomplishes the redemption of his children: who would throw his garment between a lion and a lioness when these are copulating?
– Talmud IV Sanhedrin 106a
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