And to be fair, I will go ahead and say that even if a Joseph (who in the earliest nonbiblical source is the leader of the expedition OUT of Egypt), existed as a leader in Egypt in the Hyksos period, the idea of the 12 sons is nonsense since the original 12 tribes probably did not include Judah and possibly not Benjamin. Think Gilead as one of the original 12 tribes, as listed in Judges.
There are just so many levels on which the Exodus story is nonsense, despite the fact that it clearly reflects a very clos relationship to Egypt. Who knows, it may have even been written in Egypt!
Written in Egypt, with zero mention of pyramids?
Everybody in that part of the world had some concept of Egypt. It had been a dominating presence for so long, and would continue to be for many subsequent centuries. In some ways, still very dominant, if only because of its huge population for a Middle Eastern state.
Egypt is an attractive place to set a story. You will get more attention, more readers, because people like reading about Egypt. There would also be many stories originating in Egypt that could be incorporated into a story about some dispersed Jews seeking to return. And in fact there do seem to be many elements in Exodus that are borrowed from earlier Egyptian sources, just as the story of Noah was probably adapted from earlier stories inspired by historical floods.
As early as the gospels were written, we can clearly see elements in there that clearly did not come from any authentic memories of Jesus, but are rather borrowed from earlier stories (though rarely if ever the stories Mythicists talk about). With Exodus, the process went on for centuries longer, until the original core memories that the story rests upon were mostly lost.
godspell said
No, there’s no concession regarding something that can’t possibly be proven or disproven. Nor is there any evidence of a large Jewish population in Egypt from this era. Though if there was, that still wouldn’t prove Exodus is history. Might as well say the discovery of Troy proves the existence of a huge wooden horse.The New Testament is mythologized history.
Exodus is historicized mythology. It did not happen. Period.
Uninformed. Willful ignorance. Denier. Period. Erroneous reaction to ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE.
Second, this thread is NOT about The New Testament.
Third, at this point in time, the discussion is about Jacob/Israel and his son, Joseph who became second in command to a pharaoh, and his 11 other brothers.
Just stop speaking up in any of my conversations. Your contributions are of very poor quality, as exemplified.
FocusMyView said
Do you have any photos of this multi colored coat? I have only seen a pale yellow on a part that might be the face.
See page 88, figure 63, figure 64; page 110, figure 84, page 112, figure 87; page 113, figures 88 (2 photos) and figure 89 …
“Amazingly, because the fragments had been buried in the ground for three thousand years, the paint on the surface of the statue was still visible. This showed that the man was yellow skinned. Now Egyptians were always depicted with a dark brown or reddish skin color. Women were shown with pale yellow skin … as were Asiatics from the north. So our official buried in this tomb was an Asiatic or Semite.
This is confirmed by the fact that, in his right hand, he holds across his right shoulder a throw stick as his insignia of office. These throw sticks (shaped a little bit like a boomerang) were weapons employed for hunting fowl and were regularly used by Egptian artists to depict Asiatics. In fact, the hieroglyphic determinative for the word Aamu (“Asiatic”) is the sign for the throw stick. There is no doubt therefore that the statue represents a high official of the Egyptian state who was of Asiatic origin.
page 115 of Exodus: Myth or History
FocusMyView said
And to be fair, I will go ahead and say that even if a Joseph (who in the earliest nonbiblical source is the leader of the expedition OUT of Egypt), existed as a leader in Egypt in the Hyksos period, the idea of the 12 sons is nonsense
Clearly, a response not based on evidence.
Joseph: leader of the expedition OUT of Egypt? What nonsense is this? You cannot even put forth what appears in the Bible!
godspell said
Written in Egypt, with zero mention of pyramids?
The Descent of Joseph into Egypt was to a Delta kingdom, not to Memphis or Thebes. There is no need to mention the Pyramids of Giza, Dashur, or anywhere else.
An Exodus from the Delta city of Avaris would not need to go south to Giza or Dashur–again, no need to mention the pyramids.
No point made–not a valuable contribution to the discussion.
FocusMyView
Do you have any photos of this multi colored coat? I have only seen a pale yellow on a part that might be the face.
Steefen (continued)
Page 116, Fig. 92
The rear right shoulder of the Joseph statue with faint traces of vertical stripes down the back and horizontal stripes representing an Egyptian collar around the neck.
Although the colors here are very faded, I could just make out a series of vertical stripes, above which were curved stripes wrapping around the nape of the neck. This statue was wearing an Egyptian collar and a multicolored coat.
Steefen said
Uninformed. Willful ignorance. Denier. Period. Erroneous reaction to ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE.
Second, this thread is NOT about The New Testament.
Third, at this point in time, the discussion is about Jacob/Israel and his son, Joseph who became second in command to a pharaoh, and his 11 other brothers.Just stop speaking up in any of my conversations. Your contributions are of very poor quality, as exemplified.
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Technically, the entire forum is devoted to the NT. The OT is essential to understanding the attitudes of Jesus and his followers, so a subheading relating to it is here, but it’s clearly subordinate to the primary interest of the forum. Bart Ehrman has never written a book or paper devoted to Exodus, that I know of.
And you haven’t produced any archaeological evidence. You say you have, but this is based on pseudo-scholarship. Pseudo-scholarship might be gilding the lily, but let’s call it that.
Your opinion of my contributions is irrelevant. What’s the point in giving orders no one is obligated to carry out? “I hereby command Steefen to make coherent arguments!” See? No effect.
Frankly, this entire thread should be deleted, but that isn’t going to happen either.
Also, getting back to Moses leaving Egypt to invade NW Egypt, your response was this notion that Egyptian control fluctuated. This is understood. In the time period of Saul and David, for example, Egypt was fairly weak. But if you put the Exodus at 1450 Bc or 1275 BC, Moses leaves one part of Egypt and settles in another.
You say Rohl changes this by his Egyptian chronology. What are the relevant Pharaohs in charge when Moses left Egypt? What are the dates? Very simple question, I think.
Steefen said
The Descent of Joseph into Egypt was to a Delta kingdom, not to Memphis or Thebes. There is no need to mention the Pyramids of Giza, Dashur, or anywhere else.
An Exodus from the Delta city of Avaris would not need to go south to Giza or Dashur–again, no need to mention the pyramids.
No point made–not a valuable contribution to the discussion.
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I was referring to Exodus. Which refers to a Pharaoh (without telling us which one). The OT does reference identifiable historical figures at times. Not this time. If the original authors had known which Pharaoh it was, they’d have said so. They didn’t. That seems like the kind of thing that would be remembered. But who knows? I do know that where Pharaohs be, there be monuments built to their vanity.
Are these posts your pyramids, Steefen? 😉
FocusMyView said
Also, getting back to Moses leaving Egypt to invade NW Egypt, your response was this notion that Egyptian control fluctuated. This is understood. In the time period of Saul and David, for example, Egypt was fairly weak. But if you put the Exodus at 1450 Bc or 1275 BC, Moses leaves one part of Egypt and settles in another.
You say Rohl changes this by his Egyptian chronology. What are the relevant Pharaohs in charge when Moses left Egypt? What are the dates? Very simple question, I think.
What is your insistence about northwest Egypt? The Negev, Sinai, Canaan was to the east of the Delta.
FocusMyView said
Have I bee saying NW? I am sorry. It should have been NE, as Canaan was NE of Egypt.
So, hopefully we have no more errors or distractions.
The dates please in Rohl’s Egyptian chronology of Moses leaving Egypt.
Rohl puts the Birth of Moses at about 1535 BCE in the Delta.
The princess who finds him marries a pharaoh from south of the Delta.
Moses leaves that part of Egypt at age 40.
He is in exile for 40 years.
Moses returns to his people in the Delta city of Avaris at age 80.
1535 BCE to 1495 BCE is 40 years and 1495 to 1455 is another 40 years.
So, Rohl puts the Exodus at about 1455 BCE.
Steefen said
FocusMyView said
Have I bee saying NW? I am sorry. It should have been NE, as Canaan was NE of Egypt.
So, hopefully we have no more errors or distractions.
The dates please in Rohl’s Egyptian chronology of Moses leaving Egypt.Rohl puts the Birth of Moses at about 1535 BCE in the Delta.
The princess who finds him marries a pharaoh from south of the Delta.
Moses leaves that part of Egypt at age 40.
He is in exile for 40 years.Moses returns to his people in the Delta city of Avaris at age 80.
1535 BCE to 1495 BCE is 40 years and 1495 to 1455 is another 40 years.
So, Rohl puts the Exodus at about 1455 BCE.
40 years in the wilderness to the death of Moses produces 1415 BCE.
The fall of Jericho (once the conquest begins after the death of Moses) is about that time. (Note: this is way before Ramesses the Great. The expectation was that Jericho had to fall at this later time when it was thought the Exodus was from Ramesses the Great wrongfully thought to be the pharaoh of the oppression.)
Yes, yes, yes. I tell you, your as bad as the Bible. The writer of Exodus refused to tell the name of the pharaoh and so do you!
I get the Moses chronology. That was set before Rohl ever questioned any Egyptian chronology. There have been other suggested dates in order to better sneak in an Exodus possibility, but these other dates were fudging the biblical narrative anyway. I am pretty sure the Biblical narrative has always been nearer 1450 BC. We probably had that figured out since Jesus was born, though they used a different calendar back then. Since Sir Gregor introduced his Gregorian calendar, the very next day some math nerd knew that Moses left Egypt in 1450 BC!
Please try and inform me of the political situation in Egypt at the time of Moses leaving.
FocusMyView said
Yes, yes, yes. I tell you, your as bad as the Bible. The writer of Exodus refused to tell the name of the pharaoh and so do you!
I get the Moses chronology. That was set before Rohl ever questioned any Egyptian chronology. There have been other suggested dates in order to better sneak in an Exodus possibility, but these other dates were fudging the biblical narrative anyway. I am pretty sure the Biblical narrative has always been nearer 1450 BC. We probably had that figured out since Jesus was born, though they used a different calendar back then. Since Sir Gregor introduced his Gregorian calendar, the very next day some math nerd knew that Moses left Egypt in 1450 BC!
Please try and inform me of the political situation in Egypt at the time of Moses leaving.
I’m as bad as the Bible?
Then message somebody else.
I’m supposed to relay to you every page of Rohl’s book. Read the book yourself. The names of the pharaohs are in the book.
If people had that figured out since Jesus, the bibles would have been footnoting that Pi-Ramesses was actually Avaris and that the Exodus did not happen on the watch of Ramesses the Great.
Go insult someone else.
I already gave you the political situation: Egypt was not united under one pharaoh.
I am not replying to you any more.
Apologies. Though it may seem I have pestered you with many questions, there has always only been one. You have offered up a statue of a many colored coat. You have offered up things that no one is questioning in biblical chronology. I have offered up misdirections from NW to NE and yammered on about what I thought you might say next, but it has always, always been about one thing.
What does Rohl say about the Political situation at the time of Moses’s biblical exodus (around 1450 BC)?
You have made four or five posts because you are so impressed by Rohl’s work. I have made plenty of posts as well when something I read excites me, so I get it.
Pardon my laziness. I shall have to research Rohl’s Egyptian timeline for the Exodus on my own. Be well.
FocusMyView said
Apologies. Though it may seem I have pestered you with many questions, there has always only been one. You have offered up a statue of a many colored coat. You have offered up things that no one is questioning in biblical chronology. I have offered up misdirections from NW to NE and yammered on about what I thought you might say next, but it has always, always been about one thing.
What does Rohl say about the Political situation at the time of Moses’s biblical exodus (around 1450 BC)?
You have made four or five posts because you are so impressed by Rohl’s work. I have made plenty of posts as well when something I read excites me, so I get it.
Pardon my laziness. I shall have to research Rohl’s Egyptian timeline for the Exodus on my own. Be well.
FocusMyView (Again, with no variation)
What does Rohl say about the Political situation at the time of Moses’s biblical exodus (around 1450 BC)?
Steefen
Why you cannot inquire: “I hear that Egypt was not united under one pharaoh, but the aspect of the political situation I want you to address is ________________”?
Why tell you anything when all you’re going to reply with is, I already knew that, we knew that since Jesus?
“Since Sir Gregor introduced his Gregorian calendar, the very next day some math nerd knew that Moses left Egypt in 1450 BC!”
If THAT were true, there would be one less problem with how the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament makes a timeline of the Hebrews in Egypt.
Meteorological conditions were affecting the political situation in the Northern/Lower Kingdom. But competing datings of the Thera eruption are not lining up well with Egypt’s weather that was so bad, even an Egyptian political leader was believing god (singular) was displeased with Egypt.
ONE WOULD THINK GOD WAS MORE DISPLEASED WITH CYCLADIC CIVILIZATION–but there is no scripture of a Hebrew prophet lecturing the political leaders of the islands of the Cyclades. To every nation a prophet?
Before Moses went into exile, the Southern Upper Kingdom was in a defensive war. After the Hebrew encampment at Avaris was abandoned, the Hyksos came in.
There appears to have been more than one kingdom in Egypt’s Delta in addition to political centers south of the Delta.
But of course, you could have prefaced your question with those pieces of information as well.
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