If you have not read the book Exodus: Myth or History, god misspelled, you are wasting people’s time with your nonsense.
If you are not going to address Josephus’ claim that the Hyksos Expulsion factors into the Exodus story, you are wasting people’s time with your nonsense.
I don’t have to provide counter-evidence where there’s no genuine evidence to counter. It’s like saying that if somebody says aliens landed in the capital yesterday, I should have to provide direct evidence they didn’t.
Nor do I have to concern myself with your displeasure.
I am a mite concerned over your various logical nonsequiturs–how precisely does one specialize in generalities?
I’ve given this discussion (which is mainly you responding to yourself) more time than it’s worth.
godspell said
I don’t have to provide counter-evidence where there’s no genuine evidence to counter. It’s like saying that if somebody says aliens landed in the capital yesterday, I should have to provide direct evidence they didn’t.Nor do I have to concern myself with your displeasure.
I am a mite concerned over your various logical nonsequiturs–how precisely does one specialize in generalities?
I’ve given this discussion (which is mainly you responding to yourself) more time than it’s worth.
Archaeological evidence is genuine evidence, so yes you do have to provide counter-evidence. People can see you ignoring evidence and can see you interrupting dialogue with willful ignorance.
Yes I and others would be so pleased if your give your time to other pursuits because you add no value here.
You do not concern yourself with the displeasure of others. Well, get off the team of people who want to have a quality team meeting about this topic. Stop coming into the meeting room where this is being discussed.
You are the reason why a moderator is needed.
You do not concern yourself with the pleasure of society. Then you need to be pulled over by police.
You specialize in generalities, platitudes. You have quantity but no quality.
You have given this discussion more time that it is worth ? ? ? Good. Good bye. Do not come back with disruptions until you have done your homework and a deportment where you care about the pleasure of others–meeting ground rules.
Now, in reference to the question, “Did the Exodus Happen?” Bart responds:
My guess is that there was a small group of immigrants from Egypt who settled in Canaan and over the years, decades, and centuries their background stories came to be exaggerated hugely, leading to the accounts in Exodus.
Steefen
Exaggerated hugely, how?
Respectable scripture criticism and the answer to that question would involve considering whether or not the Avaris Asiatic community Exodus historical account has been conflated with the Hyksos Expulsion historical account, not simply overstating or mythologizing the Avaris Asiatic community Exodus with no regard for the Hyksos Expulsion.
Conflating two historical accounts is different from exaggerating one historical account, yes?
Archaelogical evidence is only evidence when discovered, examined, and interpreted by qualified archaeologists. None of whom are saying what you’re saying.
Do you have a right to spout nonsense here? Of course. Does anyone have to listen? Clearly very few people do. Which is why you’re mainly talking to yourself. And responding to me as if I’m your pesky superego. Well, that’s not a job I want. Unless it pays well. What benefits do you offer? 😉
Saying your volcano evidence moves the timing of the Egyptian pharaohs. Traditionally, the Egyptian peak was near the time of Moses. Instead of Canaan being dominated by Egypt. There was one good campaign by Ramses mentioned by the Bible as Shishak.
Where does that leave the Armana letters, which have been identified by dating methods and show Egyptian rule?
godspell said
Isn’t the credibility of this guy a bit damaged simply by the fact that Steefen can chat with him more or less at will?
godspell, it’s sad when you come across as such a bear toward many here. Why not skip over comments made by whoever holds no interest for you or is annoying?
It’s sad when pseudo-scholarship gets held up as the real thing. And that’s what this is. Steefen posts this stuff here because he’d never get away with it on the main blog. He has the right to do his opinion, but not the right to suppress the opinions of others in response to his opinion. That’s an old internet fallacy–that your right to free speech is impinged upon by others exercising theirs.
godspell said
It’s sad when pseudo-scholarship gets held up as the real thing. And that’s what this is. Steefen posts this stuff here because he’d never get away with it on the main blog. He has the right to do his opinion, but not the right to suppress the opinions of others in response to his opinion. That’s an old internet fallacy–that your right to free speech is impinged upon by others exercising theirs.
Will send pm in little while.
godspell said
Archaelogical evidence is only evidence when discovered, examined, and interpreted by qualified archaeologists. None of whom are saying what you’re saying.Do you have a right to spout nonsense here? Of course. Does anyone have to listen? Clearly very few people do. Which is why you’re mainly talking to yourself. And responding to me as if I’m your pesky superego. Well, that’s not a job I want. Unless it pays well. What benefits do you offer? 😉
Show us evidence that arcaheologists are refuting the findings of Austrian archaeologists that Rohl reports.
You’re so quick to make unsubstantiated claims. Be quick to substantiate.
FocusMyView said
Saying your volcano evidence moves the timing of the Egyptian pharaohs. Traditionally, the Egyptian peak was near the time of Moses. Instead of Canaan being dominated by Egypt. There was one good campaign by Ramses mentioned by the Bible as Shishak.
Where does that leave the Armana letters, which have been identified by dating methods and show Egyptian rule?
I am not saying that.
I said the Jericho evidence requires one of the Moses stories to predate the fall of Jericho.
godspell said
It’s sad when pseudo-scholarship gets held up as the real thing. And that’s what this is. Steefen posts this stuff here because he’d never get away with it on the main blog. He has the right to do his opinion, but not the right to suppress the opinions of others in response to his opinion. That’s an old internet fallacy–that your right to free speech is impinged upon by others exercising theirs.
Erroneous.
You are in error.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I know, this is the internet, people say all kinds of ****, much worse than you, and get away with it. You feel picked on. But this is a forum started by one of the best scholars in this field. To be honest, it’s a kind of ilghtning rod to keep crap like this way from the main blog, and I guess it’s working.
It’s irritating to me, because I came here for conversation, speculation–about a subject that has impinged, in one way or another, on every person on this planet, in good ways and bad.
And frankly, most of the threads here have not measured up.
But I’ll stop posting on this one. You’ve provided no evidence, no serious scholarship, nothing anyone should take seriously. But you do. Okay, go ahead. I can’t stop you. But could you at least stop and think–what do you have here, really?
You question the existence of Jesus, who we have lots of evidence for, touting an absurd theory that he was a Roman propaganda experiment gone wrong. And you believe Exodus is historical fact, when in fact it’s just as mythical as the Iliad, albeit probably inspired by real-life events occurring a very long time before the tale was written.
You’ve got it backwards, man. And not just here.
godspell said
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I know, this is the internet, people say all kinds of ****, much worse than you, and get away with it. You feel picked on. But this is a forum started by one of the best scholars in this field. To be honest, it’s a kind of ilghtning rod to keep crap like this way from the main blog, and I guess it’s working.It’s irritating to me, because I came here for conversation, speculation–about a subject that has impinged, in one way or another, on every person on this planet, in good ways and bad.
And frankly, most of the threads here have not measured up.
But I’ll stop posting on this one. You’ve provided no evidence, no serious scholarship, nothing anyone should take seriously. But you do. Okay, go ahead. I can’t stop you. But could you at least stop and think–what do you have here, really?
You question the existence of Jesus, who we have lots of evidence for, touting an absurd theory that he was a Roman propaganda experiment gone wrong. And you believe Exodus is historical fact, when in fact it’s just as mythical as the Iliad, albeit probably inspired by real-life events occurring a very long time before the tale was written.
You’ve got it backwards, man. And not just here.
Steefen
Show us evidence that archaeologists are refuting the findings of Austrian archaeologists that Rohl reports.
You’re so quick to make unsubstantiated claims. Be quick to substantiate.
Look at the posted response above!
Steefen said
Now, in reference to the question, “Did the Exodus Happen?” Bart responds:
My guess is that there was a small group of immigrants from Egypt who settled in Canaan and over the years, decades, and centuries their background stories came to be exaggerated hugely, leading to the accounts in Exodus.Steefen
Exaggerated hugely, how?Respectable scripture criticism and the answer to that question would involve considering whether or not the Avaris Asiatic community Exodus historical account has been conflated with the Hyksos Expulsion historical account, not simply overstating or mythologizing the Avaris Asiatic community Exodus with no regard for the Hyksos Expulsion.
Conflating two historical accounts is different from exaggerating one historical account, yes?
Bart responded:
Yes, those are two different kinds of literary and oral activities, closely related in ways.
The Avaris Asiatic community Exodus historical account has been conflated with the Hyksos Expulsion historical account, not simply overstating or mythologizing the Avaris Asiatic community Exodus with no regard for the Hyksos Expulsion.
There was one period in Ancient Egyptian history when Asiatics/Semites were present in Egypt on the scale put forth by the Bible: The Hyksos Era.
There should be archaeological evidence that the cities and towns mentioned actually were destroyed AT THE TIME, but it appears there is no archaeological evidence.
There is archeological evidence of Jericho’s destruction. Hopefully, you will be able to edit your textbook to prevent teaching students inaccuracies. The archaeologists have been to Jericho, Bart. Your claim is false. Aren’t there ethics against willfully misleading students? You say there is no archeological evidence for the destruction of Jericho. That is an error.
Ai (Khirbet el-Makatir) was excavated by Bryant Wood.
= = =
I have named some of the archaeologists showing you are wrong to say there is no verification. Now, to go beyond, explaining why there is no verification at the time many expect the conquest to have followed upon the Wilderness Tradition which followed upon the Exodus. The Exodus was not from Ramesses the Great at Pi-Ramesses. The exodus was from an earlier incarnation of Pi-Ramesses: Avaris.
= = =
Do you want to discuss this matter with the archaeologist David Rohl with the intent to provide students using the college textbook, The Bible: A Historical and Literary Introduction better information?
Reply from Bart: Sorry, that’s not right. Archaeologists have definitively shown that Jericho was not a major walled city at the time described in the book of Joshua. Kenyon simply got it wrong. There are massive publications on this.
My reply is that the description of the citadel is spot on. Second, sure there are massive publications that mistakenly assign the fall of Jericho after Ramesses the Great because the Bible explicitly says the Israelites were building a store house for Ramesses the Great, Pi-Ramesses. Your massive publications and any conclusions drawn from those publications are erroneous because Israelites did not have a big show down with Ramesses the Great. Third, there is a better candidate for the historical Moses than the one you and massive publications are using and this moves the chronology back to 1455 BCE with the fall of Jericho happening at approximately 1415 BCE. No, Kenyon is not wrong. What is wrong is to insist the Bible is accurate about Ramesses the Great is the Pharaoh of the Oppression.
Pi-Ramesses is a later incarnation of Avaris and the writers of the first chapter of Exodus were not specific about using the geographical name at the time when a Semitic quarter of Avaris abandoned their homes after a plague and left in exodus. The archaeological description of Jericho verifies the bible as stated: In between the upper and lower walls of the citadel of Jericho, there were houses representing one of the poor districts of the town, built onto the sloping rampart with narrow stepped streets. Some of these dwellings were not only between the walls but also built into the lower wall so that the fortress wall actually formed the outer, northernmost wall of the houses. This is just as is described in the Book of Joshua where Rahab the prostitute’s house was located “within the wall” of Jericho.
After a prestigious reign of 67 years, Ramesses II dies at the exceptional age of 92. So, can you reply after checking with the British Museum, the Met Museum, or any other museum, that you have support for insisting that Ramesses II was the Pharaoh of the Oppression who drowned chasing the Israelites because Exodus says the Israelites were building his storehouses?
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