So as far as I can tell, we don’t actually have a mention of Moses per Hecateaus. What is credited as Hecateaus of Abdera from 320 BCE is actually shown to by Theophrastus of Mytilyne of 60 BCE. The quote paraphrases Deuteronomy (29:1?).
So I am pretty sure Dt. 29 was written before 60 BCE!!
I was just on Facebook discovering a YouTube channel that may be a prospect for inviting me to be a guest for having written my paperback book,
Historical Accuracy (Which sad calamity has caused God to turn His face away?).
Russell Grmirkin was suggested as a friend. So, I went to his FB page and discovered MythVision Podcast which interviewed Bart Ehrman, also interviewed him (twice).
Russell Gmirkin
Who wrote Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy? Not Moses, obviously.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
The dismissal is unsubstantiated. We have two Moses: one who was educated as an Egyptian prince and Osarseph who was later called Moses. Neither one of these made a contribution to the Torah?
Russell Gmirkin
Approximately 70 Jewish scholars visited Alexandria, circa 270 BCE, by royal invitation, to translate the Torah into Greek.
They didn’t translate the Torah into Greek, they, themselves, wrote the Torah in Hebrew based on research they did at the library, then they translated that into Greek.
Two ancient authors that informed the Jewish scholars were Berossus informing the book of Genesis and Manetho informing the book of Exodus.
Books from Sumer, books from Akkadia, books from Babylon, were translated by Berossus for his book on the history of Babylonia.
Berossus had not read the Torah but the Jewish scholars read Berossus in Alexandria in 270 BCE.
p/u @8:33
The Torah has long been shown to reflect possibly Hittite but definitely Assyrian style curses in the covenant. So it must be after Assyrian influence. So “obviously not Moses” if Moses is a figure from 1250 BCE.
Gmirkin shows that many things attributed to Assyrian influence, upon closer inspection, are actually mirrors of Athenian constitution or show influence from Plato’s “Laws.” Some still are obviously ANE style. Gmirkin shows the comparisons between several law codes in charts.
So we have to go with the latter of the two, because the writers did not predict the Athenian Constitution, 😀
Also, “Moses was the most humble man” could not have been written by Moses!
Plus we do not have evidence of a strong scribal community in the early Iron age. Though some evidence from Mannesah’s long, peaceful reign exists. So if a person wrote something in 1250 BCE, it would not survive unless it was being recopied by a strong scribal community like that found in the temples in Babylon or… Egypt!
So is the Egyptian aristocrat you mention actually named Moses?
Focus My View
The Torah has long been shown to reflect possibly Hittite but definitely Assyrian style curses in the covenant. So it must be after Assyrian influence. So “obviously not Moses” if Moses is a figure from 1250 BCE.
We are talking about the Exodus story, we are not talking about Hittite or Assyrian style curses in the covenant.
We are talking about a descent into Egypt and then an exit from Egypt, not Hittite or Assyrian style curses in the covenant.
Obviously not Moses is an error.
So is the Egyptian aristocrat you mention actually named Moses?
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
The Egyptian prince was born before the Hyksos descended into Egypt.
Moses is not a figure from 1250 BCE. Moses did not have a showdown with Ramesses the Great.
Robert said
FocusMyView said
Try and specify exactly what Hecateaus says about Moses! It’s exactly what Greek historiographers say about any colony founding.
Hecateaus and Manetho are in Egypt asking Egyptian priests questions. Moses is famously an Egyptian name. You do the math. 😉
For 2000 years Hecateaus’s account is thought to be a confused rendering of Exodus. It’s actually a normal Greek historiography. Hero leader founds colony (Jerusalem) and writes constitution. That’s pretty much all he claims!
Well, that is precisely the problem. We only have fragments of what Hecataeus wrote and a much later, brief, third-hand summary by Diodorus Siculus. You’ve now twice avoided my question; third time’s a charm:
If you do not think that Hecataeus/Diodorus were at least indirectly derived from the Torah, are you thereby proposing that they possessed an independent account of the deeds of Moses?
I do agree that his Egyptian name is the best evidence for some type of bare-bones historical seed of the much later Moses legends. But that hardly establishes that the Hebrew Torah was based on the Greek LXX written in response to Hecataeus. Have you read ** you do not have permission to see this link **? Hardly definitive, but it’s a much more credible account of the origins of such legends.
So by trying to do this without the book I thoroughly screwed things up.
Moses is not mentioned in Diodorus Book 1 which mentions Egyptians colonizing Greece and Judea.
The oft cited 40.3.8 is not Hecateaus of Abdera at all, but Theophanes of Mytilene who wrote it after visiting Jerusalem with Pompey in 63/63 BCE. The easiest explanations of why this is not Hecateaus of Abdera is that it contradicts Book 1’s positive imagery of Egyptians settling Judea. Also, Hecateaus predates the Septuagint and only mentions questioning Egyptian priests, so how would he quote Deuteronomy? Other reasons get too complex to share here.
But there are also positive reasons To think the quote is of Thephanes, including “because of this they are said to have had no kings.” This is typical Theophanes propaganda, as Pompey was busy putting an end to the Hasmonean kings and instituting an ethnarch and high priest to rule. (I get that the Hasmoneans may have been seen as high priests primarily by some, and kings primarily by others, but the point here is what Theophanes’ message).
As far as the attribution goes, I cant get to it. I quoted it above and it has “(?) Hecateaus of Abdera” and Gmirkin says it originally says “Hecateaus of Miletus.” Of course it could have come from Hecateaus of Miletus so the question is who misattributed to him- but I can’t get a hold of but one copy of a translation in PDF.
If I were looking at Hecateaus of Miletus but knew it was Theophanes of Mytilene, I would have thought it was simply misattributed by a copyist from being originally Theophanes of Mytlene to Hecateaus of Miletus. But Gmirkin has a very much “in the weeds” explanation that I did not even follow.
Who wrote Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy?
Ok, ok I confess. I wrote them. Moses did write Numbers though.
Moses is not a figure from 1250 BCE. Moses did not have a showdown with Ramesses the Great.
Then how do you explain ** you do not have permission to see this link **?
If I were looking at Hecateaus of Miletus…
I knew his cousin Thales. But jeez don’t ask him about water. He just goes on and on. Bwahahaha…
I have never watched those videos, but in the books he mentions Elaphantine as evidence of no Torah because of YHWH having a wife and the attempt to rebuild the Temple thwarts the idea that 7th century religious centralization took place.
Something he does not mention is an early edition of Tobit found in the papyri. Supposedly, this edition was not about YHWH or Judean heroes at all. It had yet to be “Judaized.” I need to look into that as the archetype for ANE sources changing into Judean sources.
Russell Gmirkin
12 tribes is a Greek idea, also 10 tribes, 6 tribes. The Greeks divided their nation into 12 tribes. Athens had 10 tribes for a while. See Plato’s Laws.
Monotheism is from Timaeus.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Timaeus and Critias should be on my wish list.
There is the Penguin Classics. There is the Oxford World’s Classics. There is the Loeb Classical Library No. 234 entitled:
Plato: Timaeus, Critias, Cleitophon, Menexenus, Epistles.
The Timaeus seeks the origin of the visible universe out of abstract geometrical elements.
The unfinished Critias treats of lost Atlantis.
Unfinished also is Plato’s last work of the twelve books of Laws (Socrates is absent from it), a critical discussion of principles of law which Plato thought the Greeks might accept.
p/u at 37:08.
FocusMyView said
I have never watched those videos, but in the books he mentions Elaphantine as evidence of no Torah because of YHWH having a wife and the attempt to rebuild the Temple thwarts the idea that 7th century religious centralization took place.Something he does not mention is an early edition of Tobit found in the papyri. Supposedly, this edition was not about YHWH or Judean heroes at all. It had yet to be “Judaized.” I need to look into that as the archetype for ANE sources changing into Judean sources.
Back in the 1990’s I once thought that the Primary History (Genesis-2 Kings) might be a Hellenistic Creation. I was familiar with the works of Neils Peter Lemche and Russell Gmirkin. But, alas, I had to give up that notion. WHY? I did an exhaustive search in archaeological records to determine the age of ALL sites mentioned in the Primary History. My thinking was as follows, IF I can find sites that did not come into existence before the Hellenistic period, this would be proof that the Primary History was a Hellenistic Creation. My search found NO such site, what-so-ever, that came into existence only in Hellenistic Times! The “latest” site I could find was dated to the 7th century BC! Today (2021) My understanding is that the Primary History was crafted in the Babylonian Exile, probably around 562-560 BC. The clue? The mention of the Babylonian King Evil Merodach in 2 Kings 25:27, who released from prison the Judaean King Jehoiachin. From Babylonian records scholars have establish that Babylonian King (Babylonian: Amel Marduk) had a very short reign, he was assassinated in a palace putsch circa 560 BC, he came to power circa 562 BC. This is the last datable event in the Primary History. For me, endings date beginnings (I date the Genesis and Exodus accounts to circa 562-560 BC). See my website for details ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Yes, it’s very common to date beginnings by the end of the narrative. I am not sure, but I feel this is particular to Bible studies.
I can write a recap of Judean Kings. It’s currently 2021 CE.
Friedman does this twice in his early editions, supposing D is written during Josiah’s reign and R was Ezra. Then there is the popular LXX was written around 270 because the Letter of Aristeas is the clue.
A common feature of the age is antiquating your own past. Bithynia adopts a calendar mirroring the Seleucid, but in that calendars own year 99. The Romans backdated by 600 years when they made it near 150 BCE.
It’s a competition of “people’s” and their ideologies. And antiquaty seems to matter somehow.
The clues could be simply somebody writing a 500 year span of history that just ended… Or it could date from an age where antiquarian was the norm.
Also, writing history in 600 BCE makes the Judahites basically inventors of… Writing history!
Back in the 1990’s I once thought that the Primary History (Genesis-2 Kings) might be a Hellenistic Creation. I was familiar with the works of Neils Peter Lemche and Russell Gmirkin. But, alas, I had to give up that notion. WHY? I did an exhaustive search in archaeological records to determine the age of ALL sites mentioned in the Primary History. My thinking was as follows, IF I can find sites that did not come into existence before the Hellenistic period, this would be proof that the Primary History was a Hellenistic Creation. My search found NO such site, what-so-ever, that came into existence only in Hellenistic Times! The “latest” site I could find was dated to the 7th century BC!
So many questions.
What were you comparing the Bible cities to? Determining Nazareth, for example, is controversial and they have non biblical literature to work with. I can’t think of any cities foreign powers might name besides Jerusalem Shechem, Samaria and Meggido.
Also, I fail to understand how your logic works there. Finding a city that did not exist until late proves Chronicles is late.
But NOT finding a city that did not exist until late dies not prove the Dtr. History as late.
I wonder about the names though. Hebron, for example, was supposedly formerly called Kiriath-arba. Google map Hebron and you will see Kiryat Arba there today! (2021). Were biblical names of towns mostly just that, biblical? Again exceptions exist like Jerusalem and other famous towns.
BDEhrman
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