Steefen said
Focus My View

The Torah has long been shown to reflect possibly Hittite but definitely Assyrian style curses in the covenant. So it must be after Assyrian influence. So “obviously not Moses” if Moses is a figure from 1250 BCE.

Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy

We are talking about the Exodus story, we are not talking about Hittite or Assyrian style curses in the covenant.

We are talking about a descent into Egypt and then an exit from Egypt, not Hittite or Assyrian style curses in the covenant.
Obviously not Moses is an error.

Focus My View

So is the Egyptian aristocrat you mention actually named Moses? 

Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy

The Egyptian prince was born before the Hyksos descended into Egypt.

Moses is not a figure from 1250 BCE. Moses did not have a showdown with Ramesses the Great.

  

Steve Campbell wrote: “Moses is not a figure from 1250 BCE…” I find myself in agreement with Steve Campbell. So, who is Moses (Hebrew: Moshe, Arabic: Musa)? When did he live? Did he write the Pentateuch? Archaeology provides some clues. Genesis, allegedly written by Moses, according to some scholars, would have been written circa 1446-1406 BC (based on 1 Kings 6:1). The problem? Genesis 36:33 mentions Edomite Bozrah (modern Buseira, 30 miles south of the Dead Sea). When excavated, to bedrock, it turned out to be no earlier than circa 725 BC. How could Moses, circa 1446-1406 BC, write about Bozrah, which came into existence 700 years after Moses’ death? Apparently, someone passing themselves off as Moses, wrote about Bozrah AFTER its creation, that is, if one wants to argue that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. Jeremiah the prophet, speaks of the people of Israel being brought up out of Egypt by God (Jer. 23:7), and Jeremiah winds up in Egypt circa 587 BC, in Exile. So the notion of an Exodus from Egypt, is certainly known by 587 BC, 138 years AFTER Bozrah’s/Busiera’s founding. So, Steve Campbell appears to be right, Moses is NOT a figure from 1250 BCE, he is more likely a figure from AFTER 725 BC, after Bozrah’s/Buseira’s founding. I, of course, realize some scholars have argued Genesis was not written by Moses circa 1446-1406 BC, as they understand parts of Genesis were written/edited as late as the Exilic or Post-exilic times, the 6th and/or 5th centuries BC.

Steve Campbell also wrote: “Moses did not have a showdown with Rameses the Great.” Again, I find myself in agreement with Steve Campbell. WHY? I understand that the fall of Jericho’s defensive walls and burning by Joshua aligns with what was found by Dame Kenyon, who dated the event to circa 1550 BC and the Hyksos Expulsion from Egypt. She did NOT associate this Middle Bronze II event with Joshua, she followed the scholarly paradigm of a 13th century BC Exodus/Conquest., declaring there was NO wall at that time (13th century BC) to fall before Joshua’s trumpets. So, for me, the mention of the Exodus as starting at the city of Rameses (Exodus 12:37), is an anachronism, the city was earlier called Avaris of the Hyksos. For me, the Hyksos expulsion was recast as Israel’s Exodus, as suggested by the Jewish scholar Flavius Josephus circa 79 AD. This suggests, for me, that the un-named Pharaoh who drove Israel out of Egypt was non-other than Pharaoh Ahmoses I, founder of the 18th dynasty, who drove out the Hyksos. I also suspect he is also what is behind Moses, prince of Egypt, associated with an Exodus from Egypt.

Moses, after conquering Moab, the kingdom of Sihon the Amorite, distributes the cities of Heshbon and Eleahleh to the tribes of Gad and Reuben. When excavated, they turned out to be no earlier than Iron Age I (1200-1100 BC). So, 300 years has elapsed from Jericho’s fallen walls and burning to Heshbon and Elealeh’s founding, suggesting that two historical events have been fused together and made into the Bible’s Exodus.

Robert said

Sapiensape43 said 

Genesis, allegedly written by Moses, according to some scholars …  

No critical scholar defends this view.

Apparently, someone passing themselves off as Moses, wrote about Bozrah AFTER its creation, that is, if one wants to argue that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. 

Where in the Torah do you see the author even implicitly claiming to be Moses? 

  

See Leviticus 26:44-46, 27:34 “…my covenant…whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt…THESE ARE THE STATUTES AND ORDINANCES AND LAWS WHICH THE LORD MADE BETWEEN HIM AND THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL ON MOUNT SINAI BY MOSES…These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the people of Israel on Mount Sinai…”

As for Robert’s notion: “No critical scholar defends this view” I guess it all depends about one’s point of view as to what constitutes “a critical scholar.”  Certainly, devout Jewish Rabbi’s see themselves as “critical scholars,” as do many devout Christian Scholars of a Conservative stripe. To dis-miss these people as NOT being critical scholars strikes me as bordering on an arrogant view.

Quite clearly, Leviticus understands Moses has received the Torah at the hand of God…

Robert said
Certainly the Torah represents that God gave the commandments to Moses. But note that the texts you cite speak of Moses in the third person. What I’m asking for is any indication in the Torah the author even implicitly claims to be Moses.

It’s not arrogance to note that some scholars study the texts from within a larger commitment (or devotion, as you say) to their to their religious dogma, doctrines, or strongly held beliefs. Many religious colleges and seminaries even require their teachers to some tyoe of confessional oath and fired if they teach or write anything that contradicts this oath. This is a limitation on academic freedom, which is a sine qua non in all other fields of scholarship. This is just a fact of religious scholarship in the US especially. 

  

There are instances of Moses speaking in the first person in the Pentateuch: Deuteronomy 30:1-20 constantly has Moses saying …I… (the first person)

“…the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you…

“…obey his voice in all that I command you this day…”

“…you shall again obey the voice of the Lord, and keep all his commandments which I command you this day..”

“…For this commandment which I command you this day…”

As regards Moses’ writing the Torah (Laws), see Deuteronomy 31:24, “When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book, to the very end, Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord. Take this book of the law, and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.”

Quite clearly Moses is portrayed as writing the Torah in book form (scrolls) and having it placed with the ark of the Covenant. So, I cannot see your objection to his NOT writing it according to texts?

Let me be clear dear Robert, I do not understand Torah was written by Moses, this is fiction. Exodus is fiction. Truth be told, I regard all of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, to be fiction, written by delusional people, but a fiction, nevertheless based to some extent, on real historical events as confirmed by archaeological findings (the Hyksos Expulsion being recast as the Exodus). My main interest (1980-2020) has been in determining the pre-biblical origins of the Bible in recast Canaanite and Mesopotamian myths, which I do at my website, ** you do not have permission to see this link **

Robert said

Sapiensape43 said 

As regards Moses’ writing the Torah (Laws), see Deuteronomy 31:24, “When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book, to the very end, Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord. Take this book of the law, and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.”

But this demonstrates that Deuteronomy at the very least was not being claimed to have been written by Moses. I know you see these narratives as fictional. Are there any critical scholars you know of who defend Mosaic authorship of the whole Torah? 

  

By “your” definition of “critical scholar” I do not know of any who would defend the Torah as being completely written by Moses, circa 1446-1406 BC, or even circa 1260 BC.

However, two Egyptologists, Professors James K. Hoffmeier and Kenneth A. Kitchen, seem to suggest that at least parts of the Pentateuch were composed by Moses, allowing for some later editings. Hoffmeier: “The body of evidence reviewed in this book provides indirect evidence which shows that the main points of the Israel in Egypt and exodus narratives are indeed plausible.” (p. 226. James K. Hoffmeier. Israel in Egypt, the Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition. Oxford University Press. 1996)

Kitchen: “The Sinai covenant (all three versions, Deuteronomy included) has to have originated within a close-set period (1400-1200)- likewise other features…Thus we have a consistent level of good, fact-based correlations right through from circa 2000 BC (with earlier roots) down to 400 BC In terms of general reliability…the Old Testament comes out remarkably well, so long as its writings and writers are treated fairly and evenhandedly…” (p. 500. “A Few Conclusions.” Kenneth A. Kitchen. On the Reliability of the Old Testament. William B. Eerdmans. 2003)

Both Hoffmeier and Kitchen argue for a 13th century BC Exodus on the basis of the mention of the treasure city of Rameses, from which the Exodus begins (Exodus 12:37), said city being in existence in the course of the 13th century BC.

Let it be clear, I do NOT agree with these two scholars. WHY? They both IGNORE the archaeological evidence that refuses to align with their notion of a 13th century BC Exodus, namely Jericho’s collapsed and burnt wall  of circa 1550 BC (Middle Bronze II), and the founding of Heshbon and Elealeh no earlier than Iron Age I, circa 1200-1100 BC.

Sapiensape43 said

FocusMyView said

There are some logical fails on both sides of this debate, and at various times I have been guilty of each of them. 

Logical fail #1. The Bible can be used to date things. Clearly at some point some attempt was made at documenting history, whether you believe Judeans invented History or that it’s Hellenic inspiration. But the theological overwrites destroy the concept of building an accurate timeline. 1A) Doing a Bible Gateway search of the term “40 years” will show that span given to various regnsl reigns. That is going to distort a timeline. 1B) Various renditions of the Bible including the XXL and the Masoretic have different timelines, including some impossibilities, with each having a 4000 year old creation span ending at the reeducation of the Temple in 164 BCE and Moses being 2/3 of the way along that time span. These are THEOLOGICAL considerations, not historical ones. 

2) Even Manetho got it wrong and he was trying to write the history of Egypt. His times are off and his descriptions of how the Hyksos came to power and what they did once their power in Egypt ceased – all of this is considered incorrect. Should anyone except inerranticists expect to create a biblical timeline from the combination of archeological and Biblical data? Why should we shoot down the possibility of an Exodus based on inerrancy when none in this discussion believe in inerrancy? 

Surely the story of destroying Jericho’s walls could have been a completely separate story ( it is the conquest, not the Exodus after all) added on. Perhaps a myth to explain the rubble left from the wall that had been destroyed and not rebuilt. 

While I do believe Exodus was written as a polemic against Manetho’s Aegyptica and Moses was made up as part of that polemic, I do think that various parts of the Exodus theme reflect a middle to late bronze age reality. 

  

IF Exodus was written as a polemic against Manetho’s Aegyptica, please explain why there is no mention of site that existed ONLY in Hellenistic Times? The latest site is 7th century BC, NOT Manetho’s world of the 4th century BC. As regards Exodus reflecting a Middle to Late Bronze Age reality, some sites upon excavation existed in Early Bronze Age times (2400-2300 BC), then were deserted until reoccupied in Iron Age I 1200-1100 BC (Ai, and Arad for example). Scholars have noted that the Hebrew in which the Exodus is written (for example the sacred Tetragram YHWH), seems to be late, of the 8th-6th centuries BC NOT the Hebrew forms encountered in the Hellenistic Era (4th/3rd century BC) and Manetho’s World. Just as English varies in written form from Anglo-Saxon times, down to the 20th century, so, too, the same holds for Hebrew, its various forms can be dated too, and they are NOT Hellenistic and of Manetho’s World, or AFTER Manetho’s World. Genesis’ Table of Nations makes no mention of Persia. Some have suggested this omission suggests the author did not know of Persia. Persia came on the stage of world history with Cyrus circa the 6th century BC after his conquest of Babylon in 537 BC. This suggests Genesis was written BEFORE Persia came on the World Scene as a mighty power, BEFORE 537 BC. But, AFTER 537 BC, and through 332 BC, Persia was a great world power and this great power is absent from Genesis’ Table of Nations. How to explain this omission, if Genesis is in response to Manetho’s 4th century BC Aegyptica? The Hebrew of Manetho’s World and later, preserved in the Apocrypha of the Bible (Maccabees etc), varies from that found in Genesis.

  

Another clue to dating Genesis in the Table of Nations is the mention of Madai, the Medes (Genesis 10:2). They rose to worldwide fame and prominance in 612 BC, when they, with the help of Babylon, overthrew Assyria and destroyed Nineveh, the Assyrian capital.  But by 549 BC, the Medes are in turn, conquered, and absorbed by Cyrus of Persia, and it is now Persia who is the great world power, who by 539 BC conquers Babylon. How strange that Genesis, allegedly written in response to Manetho’s 4th century BC Aegyptica, mentions Medes (Madai) but not their successors, the Persians. The absence of Persia in Genesis’ Table of Nations, but its mention of Medes, suggests for me that Genesis’ author did not know of Persia as a world power yet, for it to rate being included in his Table of Nations. So, Genesis appears to have been written BEFORE 549 BC and the Median demise, Media/Madai being eclipsed by Persia.

I have dated Genesis to circa 562-560 BC based on 2 Kings 25:27 mention of the Babylonian King Evil Merodach. This is 11 years BEFORE Persia’s conquest of the Medes in 549 BC and 31 years before Babylon’s fall in 539 BC.