I received this in my email today: Anyone want to take a crack at it?
|
THE (SCIENTIFIC) DEATH OF JESUS
At the age of 33, Jesus was condemned to the death penalty.
At the time crucifixion was the “worst” death. Only the worst criminals were condemned to be crucified. Jesus was to be nailed to the cross by His hands and feet.
Each nail was 6 to 8 inches long.
The nails were driven into His wrist.
Not into His palms as is commonly portrayed.
There’s a tendon in the wrist that extends to the shoulder.
The Roman guards knew that when the nails
were being hammered into the wrist,
that tendon would tear and break, forcing Jesus
to use His back muscles to support himself
so that He could breathe.
Both of His feet were nailed together.
Thus He was forced to support Himself on the single nail
that impaled His feet to the cross.
Jesus could not support himself with His legs
because of the pain, so He was forced to alternate
between arching His back then using his legs just to continue to breathe.
Imagine the struggle, the pain, the suffering, the courage.
Jesus endured this reality for over 3 hours.
Yes, over 3 hours!
Can you imagine this kind of suffering?
A few minutes before He died,
Jesus stopped bleeding.
He was simply pouring water from his wounds.
From common images, we see wounds to His hands
and feet and even the spear wound to His side…
But do we realize His wounds were actually made in his body.
A hammer driving large nails through the wrist,
the feet overlapped and an even larger nail
hammered through the arches,
then a Roman guard piercing His side with a spear.
But before the nails and the spear,
Jesus was whipped and beaten.
The whipping was so severe that it tore the flesh from His body.
The beating so horrific that His face was torn
and his beard ripped from His face.
The crown of thorns cut deeply into His scalp.
Most men would not have survived this torture.
He had no more blood to bleed out,
only water poured from His wounds.
The human adult body contains about 3.5 liters
(just less than a gallon) of blood.
Jesus poured all 3.5 liters of his blood;
He had three nails hammered into His members;
a crown of thorns on His head and, beyond that,
a Roman soldier who stabbed a spear into His chest.
All these without mentioning the humiliation
He passed after carrying His own cross for almost 2 kilometers,
while the crowd spat in his face and threw stones
(the cross was almost 30 kg of weight, only for its higher part,
where His hands were nailed).
|
The so-called “scientific” meditation is all pure hogwash, born more out of popular tradition and artful depiction than fact. For accuracy, lump it together with Bill O’Reilly’s fanciful “Killing Jesus.”
Crucifixion was a fact, no question, but, as Bart — and other scholars – have repeatedly pointed out, we have absolutely NO idea how the Romans practiced it. There is no surviving tech support manual in any literature. There is no way of knowing that one nail or two was used in the feet; the one bone fragment that was found with a nail embedded suggests that in that case the nails were hammered on the sides of the post through the ankles. Was that the common practice? No way of knowing. Was the crossbeam carried 30 KG? Impossible to tell.
This is the kind of thing coming from evangelicals who, trying to put a historic or scientific face on fundamentalist Christianity, doss it up with a few “facts,” like nails in the wrists or the crossbar rather than the whole cross. Much of this stems from the 1963 book by French surgeon (and a devout believer) Dr. Pierre Barbet, “A Doctor At Calvary.” Barbet’s work on crucifixion came from his studies of the marks on Shroud of Turin. But the Shroud has since been found to be a fake, dating to the Middle Ages. Moreover, subsequent reviews of Barbet’s works by sindonologists (i.e. Shroud specialists) have questioned Barbet’s conclusions and methodologies. ** you do not have permission to see this link **
@groucho
This is probably my own fault. I was actually looking for respondents to discuss what we COULD actually say about crucifixion in General and that of Jesus in particular. I certainly doubt the scientific nature of what was claimed in the above email and agree with your second paragraph. Christians seem to have a horrible problem with confirmation bias
Now as to your remarks about the Shroud of Turin. I doubt there is much in the way of evidence after the 2002 intervention.
In spite of it’s a reputation, there’s a very good article on Wikipedia (** you do not have permission to see this link **): one of the key observations is that the final testing protocol required the “sample to be taken from a single location on the cloth. This is particularly significant because, should the chosen portion be in any way not representative of the remainder of the shroud, the results would only be applicable to that portion of the cloth.
2. the blind test method was abandoned along with the “proportional counter method” because it it “required” gram quantities rather than milligram quantities of shroud material.
What interests me more is claims about it being studied never seem to tell you if the studies in Question actually had access to it.
Even without the STURP dating to the middle ages, there are numerous obstacles to identifying it as Jesus burial shroud.
Finally, I don’t think status as a believer, necessarily discounts results. And also I think Bart mentioned nails in one of his postings (I think in reference to the Talpiot tomb)
Poor old/young Jesus that suffered 3 hours of pain and suffering. Meanwhile, millions of people suffer years and years of illness and incapacity and pain and all sorts of crippling and life threatening diseases. How about a child dying of cancer for three years while their parents ask God to honour its word where it says ask anything in my name and God will answer it to honour both the Father and the Son. Paul said if anyone is ill or needs healing, take them to the elders of the church to pray over them etc.
Its total hogwash and lies, that’s what!
Converts were put to death for a myth and what did Jesus or Paul do for humanity? Invent electricity? The car? Penicillan and life saving drugs? Pain relieving drugs then? Anything? Meanwhile they thought demons needed exorcising as they couldn’t understand what eplilepsy was or other brain disorders. What idiots are these that intelligent people don’t see through it all?
And yet most Christians believe this man was God? When will people ‘think’ about all these so called holy scriptures and use their own intelligence to decide when lies are lies and myth is myth? Adam and Eve were myth. Therefore the fall and talking snakes were myth. Therefore there was no need for atonement or anyone to die for our sins and anyway that is against natural justice that when the law is based on each person bearing responsibility for their own actions. Scapegoating was a pagan act and so was the idea of a man dying for the sins of the world.
The Christian Church leaders will never agree as that would be the end of them but hopefully, people will start to really examine these pagan scriptural myths and find their own salvation by doing so!
It may be just me but why people like Bart and a thousand others. bother with all this stuff is beyond me as it really doesn’t need any forensic examination just a dose of common sense really. I’ve told Bart to go out and do something else really useful with all that time and energy he so obviously possesses. Maybe the penny will drop one day? 
Or the cent?
But hey, it all provides a pretty good living and so why kill the golden goose hey?
@ MikeyS
For those who have truly had the Christian (or any other) faith incorporated thoroughly into their self image, change to belief comes slowly and painfully, if at all. Dr. Ehrman’s research into and reporting of the events, texts, and people from the first 400 years of Christianity provides information to the faithful and the curious as well as the agnostic and atheist. Habits of thought are very difficult to change and confrontation usually just increases resistance to new ideas. Providing a non-demanding and non-threatening venue (books, blogs videos) is far more likely to induce a change of mind than mocking or sarcasm. While religions provide some with reason to attack their fellow man, atheism ain’t taking no prizes either…Stalin, Mao, and many others have proven that man is man’s worst enemy.
And Mikey, I am guessing that I was an atheist before you were born. Be not so harsh in your judgement of others, you will change your mind about many things also over time. Peace.
Hi. I do hope I can change my ideas over time as that is what we should do when we look at things in a different light. I am 70 years old and have been a Christian for probably 57 of those years and am now not an atheist but a Diest. That may be due to not wanting to let go of God completely because of my Christian beliefs but hopefully because if we are to believe the biblical accounts then they ought to stand up to the utmost scrunity rather than what most Christians do in my long experience going to Church is to just accept everything as the very word of God and so its unchallengeable and so read by most in a literal sense. I’ve said before, I have no problem at all as the bible as work of fiction, myth and allergory even though some of the characters like Moses and Jesus and Paul were real people. Its the claims made by them and for them that is the problem.
Its not that I am trying to condemn other believers for believing what they want to believe. Everyone under the sun is entitled to respect and how they want to worship God(s). Lots of people do good and extraordinary things because of their faith. MY problem is what ‘religion’ has done to people over the last 2000 years where thousands were killed, cajouled and forced into a singular belief system OR else suffer the consequences. Of course secularism has done the same thing and so its the same central core ie power and authority over the masses either way. When ideas are formulated from untruth such as we clearly see in the bible, then surely why do most people keep believing they are still true and look for ways to tailor their ingrained beliefs to fit the scientific evidence for instance. My BIGGEST objection is the NT preaching stuff like atonement and we are all born sick and God has abandoned the human race because of the garden of Eden etc. Why make people feel bad about themselves and virtually force them into a false belief about heaven and hell like the Christian Church has done and still doing.
Jesus didn’t return as he prophised. The end of the world didn’t happen 2000 years ago and yet most Christians cannot accept that was an untrue statement IF Jesus made it at all. Don’t forget, Paul told people not to get married as the time was so short etc. People died then as martyrs because of a lie and still are. To me, one death due to religious misbelief is one too many.
If we could all accept we all should be able to worship God in our own way and get rid of doctrines and power bases with none having any more authority than anyone else or as Thomas Paine said, “My mind is my Church” etc then we could become a much better world BUT the truth and untruths of all religious dogma and holy text MUST be exposed for what it is.
ATB, Mike
MikeyS,
The Stages of Spiritual Growth by M. Scott Peck, M.D. (especially known for his Road Less Traveled) can be found here: ** you do not have permission to see this link ** Of Spiritual Growth.html.
It would seem many of us on this blog are in the third or maybe even fourth stage of spiritual development. Having been in that second stage, we can understand all too well our families and friends who are very much there. What’s interesting is how those of us who moved on managed to do so. Personally, a great theologian was able to lead me beyond that stage two-type Christianity It took years! Then I found Dr. Ehrman’s blog.
There’s a sense of having transcended the culture of this little southern town where church activities are fundamental. Even so, there’s no going back now.
spiker said
I received this in my email today: Anyone want to take a crack at it?
Spiker,
In the Life of Flavius Josephus, three men are crucified.
Josephus recognizes the three men and asks General Titus if he can take them down.
Josephus arranges for the best of care to be given to the three men but only one recovers.
Did it take 2 to 3 days for the one to “resurrect”? Whatever amount of time, he lived again.
Steefen said
spiker said
I received this in my email today: Anyone want to take a crack at it?Spiker,
In the Life of Flavius Josephus, three men are crucified.
Josephus recognizes the three men and asks General Titus if he can take them down.
Josephus arranges for the best of care to be given to the three men but only one recovers.
Did it take 2 to 3 days for the one to “resurrect”? Whatever amount of time, he lived again.
So you think that because Josephus wrote about 3 men being crucified that we should view it as a possible inspiration for the verses in the gospels that say Jesus was crucified with two rebels? If that were the case then we should comb through every ancient recording of all trios of men being crucified for inclusion in that consideration. Crucifixion was reserved for crimes against the state (e.g. rebellion) for which Jesus was guilty. Of course he’s going to be crucified with others who rebelled against Rome. What makes this tale from Josephus worthy of consideration for being the inspiration of the Biblical account? Crucifixion happened a LOT! Rulers liked it so much that it persisted until Constantine abolished it. Simply because Josephus is one of the very few Jewish writers who works from the time period around the life of Jesus still exist is no reason to put undue weight on interpreting anything he wrote unless he explicitly tells us something.
Paul wrote more than 10 years prior to the siege of Jotapata (the event after which Josephus saw the three crucified men that he knew) that Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Obviously the crucifixion story (assuming that’s all it was and not historical fact that occurred more or less when and how it was described in Mark at least—which I believe) was around well before 67AD. Luke wrote that Jesus was crucified along with two rebels/brigands/thieves. This echoes Isaiah 53:12. The oldest copies of Mark do not include this addendum, therefore, to at least some early Christians the other two crucified with Jesus were simply there and had no particular importance other than perhaps allegorical (a king’s retinue, etc.).
Steefen said
Spiker,In the Life of Flavius Josephus, three men are crucified.
Josephus recognizes the three men and asks General Titus if he can take them down.
Josephus arranges for the best of care to be given to the three men but only one recovers.
Did it take 2 to 3 days for the one to “resurrect”? Whatever amount of time, he lived again.
What exactly is your point Steef? Is it that you didn’t really read my post and thought I was claiming the Resurrection claim is true instead of asking for an assessment about claims made in this email: nail sizes etc What does the example of Jospehus have to do with this? As far as I know no one believes there was a resurrection there and Josephus didn’t claim there was. Are you suggesting some sort of Swoon theory? Pretty sloppy Steef. No sloppier than your other posts, but sloppy none the less
MikeyS said
Hi. I do hope I can change my ideas over time as that is what we should do when we look at things in a different light. I am 70 years old and have been a Christian for probably 57 of those years and am now not an atheist but a Diest.
Been there Mikey. Isn’t it interesting that changing your mind so to speak takes so long! Having been raised a Christian, I made my break much earlier than yourself ( think it has to be something like 30 years ago), but even today there’s an underlying desire to reconcile it with what I believe. Thankfully I found Prof Ehrman’s Work! I am personally looking into something like Unitarian or Universalist churches.
This stuff is baked in and it can be traumatic when the scales fall from your eyes, but I believe one can get past it and use
the remaining residue constructively. I am always interested in conversion stories.
It’s not what it sounds like, but There was a book written in the late 40s called The God That Failed: Essays by 6 well known Authors who tell their stories about converting and then deconverting from Marxism ( Arthur Koestler may be the only one of them that someone might know these days) I have often thought there should be one for Christianity: It might be something the Clergy Project could do. Maybe Dan Dennette could reprise Richard Crossman’s role: Maybe call it The Road Back From Damascus? The ex-communists had a much more established language about their conversions: The event or thing that “broke the camels back was referred to as a Krondstadt (After an uprising at the Krondstat Naval base after the failure of Marx’s “programme” and how Lenin put down the uprising)
Hi Spiker, thanks for your thoughts here and very good points about clinging to things that were so important in our early lives. I too would like to read of Christians who became atheists and then reconverted back again and why that happened. eg Was that a personal experience of ‘God’ or an intellectual rediscovery based on research like on here and of course a no where else to go scenario that we read Peter had with Jesus at one point? I too have looked at the Unitarian Church movement and looked at some Youtube videos from the USA that seem quite good. I have also looked at and gone to two Quaker Meetings here in the UK as they have many similar ideas to mine about belief in God and don’t consider the Church to have any more authority or influence than anyone else etc. I didn’t particularly like the one solid hour all sitting in a circle without saying anything whilst waiting on the spirit to move someone to make a comment which may or may not happen.
It would take a lot to get me back within the Christian fold though but anything is possible. The more I see of the world and the suffering that goes on while God apparently watching with folded arms is something that can be very persuasive to atheism as an option though.
One thing that I can never go back on is the idea of a human sacrificial atonement (Jesus) demand by God which is central to the Christian belief. IF Christians would really really consider this idea seriously, they would realize its full of holes and not just the fact that Evolution has destroyed any concept of Adam and Eve created as we are now and thus any original sin or fall which the human race need redemption but that it makes God out to be some kind of Phsychopathic Monster that won’t forgive even new born babies and that ALL have sinned as Paul said. Because one man sinned?
Then we have loving parents who will forgive their children of anything no matter what they have done, because they love them and they do that unconditionally, without any sacrifice, any intermediatory or anything. Yet we are led to believe that God’s love is greater than anything we can imagine yet all that suggests that human love is greater than God’s. I have asked this question many times of Christians and none have any answer.
ATB, Mike
Mikey:
Couldn’t agree more. Personally, I’ve come close, but Ehrman’s work drove the final nails in. I don’t think much about God per se but
I do think about the affirmative role of community: peer pressure etc. I am tremendously skeptical of any sort of “spiritual” claims
For example if I see someone in trouble am I moved by “The Spirit” to help or am I just motivated by compassion or maybe I’ve found myself in similar circumstances? Most of what passes for spirituality seems more like emotion. So lets call it emotionalism. Soaring rhetoric might make us feel good and inspire us, but is that really spiritual; an appeal to some divine spark within us?
BTW I also see the problem of evil as crucial: Somehow I can’t believe in a deity that stands by while, say, children’s lives are decimated by pedophile priests: In this case a universe with God looks very much the same as one without. Wouldn’t God be moved by the spirit to do something?
However, a church that would do anything more than shuffle these guys around has to be the very definition of evil: A world without them looks very different than one with them. Unfortunately, I’ve gotten myself into a snit and am tossing some more gas on the fire: Those who teach parents not to seek medical help for their children and make them feel guilty about doing so. IF their was a God, don’t you think he would do SOMETHING: Again the Universe with him looks very much like one without him. If he stopped Abraham, why then not stop Mr and Mrs Smith? Why not simply make them see the right choice. Does the fate of his “plan” depend on the death of Tiny Tim? Sorry Timmy if Ebeneezer gives you the money to get the surgery you need to live longer, Satan will win and we don’t want THAT now do we? So off you go and see you on the flip side!
Odd that God seemed to talk to people in the OT and yet not a sausage since? Not sure we even read where God spoke to Jesus and he was supposed to be his only Son? Oh wait? Didn’t that happen during his baptism?
Either way, almost all Christians believe God intervenes because milllions of prayers are said every day and that Jesus is alive and in heaven and despite all the crimes against humanity and Christians in particular like now in Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Africa, yet both are impassive and neither does anything at all? As you said, that is what you would expect in a universe without God. Does nobody ask why God spoke back then and not since, despite all the world’s problems? The answer is quite obvious really.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert