Avril, You are welcome. Am wondering if you think there may be something to it (stages of spiritual growth)? Also, I recommend Peck’s The Road Less Traveled. What he says about serendipity is interesting. Some would call it providential when good things just happen. I was unable to give up smoking cigarettes until praying for help. In that very moment I was empowered to quit. Was it merely the fact that I was truly ready or something far beyond that?
spiker said
Steefen said
Spiker,In the Life of Flavius Josephus, three men are crucified.
Josephus recognizes the three men and asks General Titus if he can take them down.
Josephus arranges for the best of care to be given to the three men but only one recovers.
Did it take 2 to 3 days for the one to “resurrect”? Whatever amount of time, he lived again.
What exactly is your point Steef? Is it that you didn’t really read my post and thought I was claiming the Resurrection claim is true instead of asking for an assessment about claims made in this email: nail sizes etc What does the example of Jospehus have to do with this? As far as I know no one believes there was a resurrection there and Josephus didn’t claim there was. Are you suggesting some sort of Swoon theory? Pretty sloppy Steef. No sloppier than your other posts, but sloppy none the less
I gave you an historical account of someone surviving crucifixion. His crucifixion was scientific also.
gmatthews said
Steefen said
spiker said
I received this in my email today: Anyone want to take a crack at it?Spiker,
In the Life of Flavius Josephus, three men are crucified.
Josephus recognizes the three men and asks General Titus if he can take them down.
Josephus arranges for the best of care to be given to the three men but only one recovers.
Did it take 2 to 3 days for the one to “resurrect”? Whatever amount of time, he lived again.
So you think that because Josephus wrote about 3 men being crucified that we should view it as a possible inspiration for the verses in the gospels that say Jesus was crucified with two rebels? If that were the case then we should comb through every ancient recording of all trios of men being crucified for inclusion in that consideration.
Go on, tell us of other historical accounts of a first century Judaean crucifixion tableau of three crucified men and one survived.
I can’t tell you of any trio nor do I feel like researching the issue (note I did say “if that were the case then we should comb through every ancient recording…” I’m not sure why you think I would cite every instance known). Apparently “coincidence” is not a word you’re familiar with. Just because Josephus mentioned 3 men crucified is no reason to jump to the conclusion that this incident inspired the crucifixion account in the gospels. Personally, I imagine it didn’t happen at all like it’s described in the gospels aside from a roundabout way perhaps. Are you a truther or a 9/11 conspiracist? I’m just curious.
Steefen said
gmatthews said
Steefen said
spiker said
I received this in my email today: Anyone want to take a crack at it?Spiker,
In the Life of Flavius Josephus, three men are crucified.
Josephus recognizes the three men and asks General Titus if he can take them down.
Josephus arranges for the best of care to be given to the three men but only one recovers.
Did it take 2 to 3 days for the one to “resurrect”? Whatever amount of time, he lived again.
So you think that because Josephus wrote about 3 men being crucified that we should view it as a possible inspiration for the verses in the gospels that say Jesus was crucified with two rebels? If that were the case then we should comb through every ancient recording of all trios of men being crucified for inclusion in that consideration.
Go on, tell us of other historical accounts of a first century Judaean crucifixion tableau of three crucified men and one survived.
Tell us of other historical accounts of a first century Judaean crucifixion tableau:
three crucified men
one survived
the one who survived was taken down by Joseph
(biblical account: Joseph of Arimathea / historical account: Joseph ben Matthias (Josephus)
gmatthews said
Personally, I imagine it didn’t happen at all like it’s described in the gospels aside from a roundabout way perhaps. Are you a truther or a 9/11 conspiracist? I’m just curious.
I’m here at the chalkboard/whiteboard/forum “boards” to study the historical accuracy of the Bible not just for my sake but for my audiences, be it students in a classroom, watchers of my youtube videos, readers of my paperback book or ebook. I’m here for people with whom I have discussions about this subject matter and for my legacy.
The New Testament directs us to Wars of the Jews by Josephus when Jesus speaks of the Destruction of the Temple. My book is The Greatest Bible Study in Historical Accuracy. So many people do Bible Study. For a Christian to study the Bible, that Christian needs to study Jesus drawing our attention to the Destruction of the Temple. A good source for study of the Destruction of the Temple is Wars of the Jews by Josephus. An advanced degree involving the New Testament requires the same learning path. Books written about Jesus need to be from authors having walked this path.
Steefen said
Steefen said
gmatthews said
Steefen said
spiker said
I received this in my email today: Anyone want to take a crack at it?Spiker,
In the Life of Flavius Josephus, three men are crucified.
Josephus recognizes the three men and asks General Titus if he can take them down.
Josephus arranges for the best of care to be given to the three men but only one recovers.
Did it take 2 to 3 days for the one to “resurrect”? Whatever amount of time, he lived again.
So you think that because Josephus wrote about 3 men being crucified that we should view it as a possible inspiration for the verses in the gospels that say Jesus was crucified with two rebels? If that were the case then we should comb through every ancient recording of all trios of men being crucified for inclusion in that consideration.
Go on, tell us of other historical accounts of a first century Judaean crucifixion tableau of three crucified men and one survived.
Tell us of other historical accounts of a first century Judaean crucifixion tableau:
three crucified men
one survived
the one who survived was taken down by Joseph(biblical account: Joseph of Arimathea / historical account: Joseph ben Matthias (Josephus)
What you are experiencing is a type of cognitive distortion called overgeneralization or hasty-generalization. I’ll admit I looked that up.
Some good points, Mikey
Realize that the obvious nature of these arguments has more to do with our current sensibilities than anything else. They probably
weren’t that obvious to you as a Christian. Remember, the very concept of crimes against humanity is comparatively new. Mankind has come a very longways from Tribal societies where what we might call crimes against humanity were simply the way things were done under a very different ethical backdrop. The problem is that we are very much the same as our ancient ancestors in many ways, but we have some advantages that make things different: Advanced Industrial civilization has provided us with leisure to do reading and research, but we also have institutions and traditions worked out over generations that help us to see things differently than our ancient ancestors. Is it accidental that modern concepts of the after life for people like us are often cast in terms of “separation from God” rather than hell fire and brimstone”? That the deity of ancient Israel reflected the brutal and barbaric conditions of life while this same deity, today, reflects the sensibilities of modern civilization?
I think the difference in terms of the obviousness has alot to do with the fact that most people have some hazy idea about what they believe. Christianity, like other religions seems to be an anthropomorhic explaination of why things happen. There is still a part
of people that will always cling to the idea of purpose as a way to comprehend life
Steefen said
gmatthews,I’ve added you to my adversary list. I’m here for the notes on the chalboard/whiteboard. Your side talk and gossip does not interest me.
Sorry to hear that Steef. Considering your bizarre response to the OP, I don’t think you have much room to quarrel with others;
I haven’t always agreed with G or understood alll his points, but this site is dedicated to constructive discussions. Not adversarial declarations. If you don’t like what the guy posts, then DONT READ HIS POSTS. A forum dedicated to members discussion is not going to be anything like “notes on the chalboard/whiteboard”(SIC)
The purpose of the OP was to get people to talk about what we can really know historically about crucifixion in General and the crucifixion of Jesus in particular. That being said G’s response was spot on. If you can’t handle a little criticism maybe you ought to find a blog where flaming is the ultimate goal of intellectual life.
Steefen said
gmatthews,I’ve added you to my adversary list. I’m here for the notes on the chalboard/whiteboard. Your side talk and gossip does not interest me.
You have an adversary list!??! Is it long or did you just start it? How does one get on it?
What you’re here for apparently is to take advantage of Prof Ehrman’s largess and use his blog to expound your idiosyncratic theories. Which is fine. We all post at Prof Ehrman’s indulgence. So play nice.
When are you going to publish in a peer reviewed journal?
He means, I think, that he’s added me to his Ignore list. I’ve considered adding him to mine because there’s only so much tin-foil brigade I can take, but I have to admit I do enjoy shaking my head at his assertions. I really like the threads he starts where he’s the only one to reply to himself. Over and over and over again.
had to say:
The water flow when the spear peirced Jesus was not because he had run out of blood.
It was menat to show that Jesus DIED on the cross. Something about fluid build up in the body. Most likely a recognizable sign in that day and age. (Dead people and spears were not new to homo sapiens, lol). Still, modern preachers will tell you there was no way the writer could have known this biological fact and it a miracle that proves to us in our medically knowledgable days that Jesus did indeed die on the cross.
Steefen said
Steefen said
gmatthews said
Steefen said
spiker said
I received this in my email today: Anyone want to take a crack at it?Spiker,
In the Life of Flavius Josephus, three men are crucified.
Josephus recognizes the three men and asks General Titus if he can take them down.
Josephus arranges for the best of care to be given to the three men but only one recovers.
Did it take 2 to 3 days for the one to “resurrect”? Whatever amount of time, he lived again.
So you think that because Josephus wrote about 3 men being crucified that we should view it as a possible inspiration for the verses in the gospels that say Jesus was crucified with two rebels? If that were the case then we should comb through every ancient recording of all trios of men being crucified for inclusion in that consideration.
Go on, tell us of other historical accounts of a first century Judaean crucifixion tableau of three crucified men and one survived.
Tell us of other historical accounts of a first century Judaean crucifixion tableau:
three crucified men
one survived
the one who survived was taken down by Joseph(biblical account: Joseph of Arimathea / historical account: Joseph ben Matthias (Josephus)
Are not the dates way off for this to work? Was not Josephus born after the dates for the crucifiction?
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