Thus far, I find arguments for reincarnation to be even less persuasive than those for ghosts, and the arguments for ghosts, while entertaining, are pretty flimsy. (The fact that there are so many TV shows dedicated to the idea, with, really, nothing that even vaguely approaches what might be considered proof, is perhaps more a testament to the fact that the idea has so much appeal to a broad audience, one that is willing to suspend critical thinking to preserve it.) And do not misunderstand me — I love a good ghost story.
It might actually be nice if reincarnation were true since it could help people to think twice about the longer term implications of some of their actions, but such an idea is far from being evidence of its validity. The number of people who seem to be convinced that they are the reincarnation of Marie Antoinette or other famous or at least very interesting people seems to me inherently problematic. Can two people alive at the same time share a previous life?
A substantial argument against both reincarnation and ghosts is that science seems to verify a close tie between thoughts, memory and the biological entity and functioning of the brain. The question becomes how such aspects of what make us who we are might transcend the physical, which is necessarily subject to decay. The proposals are, almost by definition, supernatural, which makes them difficult to verify, and pretty easy to scoff at.
JAS said
1.The number of people who seem to be convinced that they are the reincarnation of Marie Antoinette or other famous or at least very interesting people seems to me inherently problematic.
2.Can two people alive at the same time share a previous life?
Steefen
The Big Book of Reincarnation
Life between Life
Journey of Souls
Destiny of Souls
Life between Lives: Hypnotherapy for Spiritual Regression
Old Souls: Compelling Evidence from Children Who Remember Past Lives
In the six books above, what number of people were convinced they were Marie Antoinette?
Better yet: you say dead people can be 1) Marie Antoinette, 2) famous, or 3) very interesting. Who are you not including, then?
Second, yes, two people alive can share a previous life.
Dr. Ehrman,
Encyclopedia Britannica states in its article about Serapis:
The destruction of the Serapeum at Alexandria by Theophilus, the patriarch of Alexandria, and his followers in 391 ce—together with the obliteration of other pagan temples (all with the encouragement of Emperor Theodosius I)—signaled the final triumph of Christianity not only in Egypt but throughout the Roman Empire.
In your book, The Triumph of Christianity: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World, how do you characterize the destruction of the Serapeum? First, do you discuss that destruction by Theophilus in your book? (I could not tell by looking at the chapters of your book on your amazon product page for your book.)
BDEhrman
Yes, I have a full discussion of it.
It’s nowhere nearly correct to say that this is the final triumph of Christianity in the Empire–over half the empire was still pagan after it happened.
I think generally the problem with Osiris and Serapsis is WHEN do they contain the idea of resurrection. They were worshipped for hundreds or thousands of years, and many different ideas develop over those times.
For Jesus to be non-historical, EVERY mystery cult has to have happened prior to the “times” of Jesus, AND every fertility god that enters the underworld (formerly called dying and rising gods, but since Jesus is real they should be called agricultural, fertility, or otherwise simply NOTJESUS gods) must enter in the form of death as evaluated by the synchronization of the 4 gospels and Paul’s input into a theological container and shaken until it is one coherent theory that is NOTPAGAN gods. When these gods leave their pagan states of deatherness, since they are claerly NOTJESUS and therefore are under a different type of death than Jesus is in the container we named NOTPAGAN gods, they have to arise just like Jesus did in Paul, and not like JEsus did in the many other varieties of veiwing Jesus found in the literature that does not compromise what we know of Jesus when specifically debating the likelihood that Jesus is a myth.
At all other times, as long as Jesus is historical and we respect the infitesimal kernel that spawned the religion we call Christianity, we may include all these similarities as long as we are legendarizing the holy kernel.
😉
But seriously, I do wonder if those cults got their ideas from Christianity or the other way around.
FocusMyView said
I think generally the problem with Osiris and Serapsis is WHEN do they contain the idea of resurrection. They were worshipped for hundreds or thousands of years, and many different ideas develop over those times.For Jesus to be non-historical, EVERY mystery cult has to have happened prior to the “times” of Jesus, AND every fertility god that enters the underworld (formerly called dying and rising gods, but since Jesus is real they should be called agricultural, fertility, or otherwise simply NOTJESUS gods) must enter in the form of death as evaluated by the synchronization of the 4 gospels and Paul’s input into a theological container and shaken until it is one coherent theory that is NOTPAGAN gods. When these gods leave their pagan states of deatherness, since they are claerly NOTJESUS and therefore are under a different type of death than Jesus is in the container we named NOTPAGAN gods, they have to arise just like Jesus did in Paul, and not like JEsus did in the many other varieties of veiwing Jesus found in the literature that does not compromise what we know of Jesus when specifically debating the likelihood that Jesus is a myth.
At all other times, as long as Jesus is historical and we respect the infitesimal kernel that spawned the religion we call Christianity, we may include all these similarities as long as we are legendarizing the holy kernel.
😉
But seriously, I do wonder if those cults got their ideas from Christianity or the other way around.
Serapis probably got this from the fact that he is a syncretic Egyptian-Greek deity, so from Osiris, but we have clear evidence of later Christian syncretism as well, meaning his cult certainly was influenced by Christian developments, same as the Attis cult.
Also, gods who enter the underworld do not necessarily die. Rhampsinitus enters the underworld “alive” explicitly in Herodotus. Entering the underworld does not equate to death necessarily. Hence, why it is not a similarity to Jesus to explicitly is killed and dies a human death. Simply going to a different location is not the same as dying.
Likewise, a god who never rises from the dead, is not resurrected. Osiris does not rise from the dead. Attis does not rise from the dead. Tammuz never died, and so cannot rise from the dead, etc. Therefore, just because they have an action post-death or post-underworld travel does not make them similar to Jesus.
In terms of actually dying and being resurrected, the only deity I know pre-Christianity that rises from the dead, without debate, is Inanna/Ishtar, but she does not do so by her own power, but via magic herbs and waters, and no serious scholar anywhere in the world (only mythicist troglodytes like Carrier) thinks Inanna/Ishtar became the basis for Jesus or influenced the Jesus narratives.
As for Jesus rising in other narratives, your basic problem here is that… all the other writings outside the New Testament, sans 1 Clement, are 2nd century products. Even more challenging, they are usually all aware of the New Testament writings. 1 Clement knows of Paul’s writings. The Ascension of Isaiah has recently been argued to be aware of both Paul and Matthew. All of the next earliest works are (a) much later, and/or (b) reliant on the New Testament texts. So, we can’t truly argue they offer any older view of the resurrection. So your whole spiel about “they have to arise just like Jesus did in Paul, and not like JEsus did in the many other varieties of veiwing Jesus found in the literature that does not compromise what we know of Jesus when specifically debating the likelihood that Jesus is a myth” is pretty pointless and nonsensical. It offers nothing critical or thoughtful on the issue.
There is simply no reason to think of dying-rising gods or anything similar as being a major influence on Jesus. At best, they only influence they had was with how well Christianity was received and therefore, they helped Christianity spread.
Wikipedia
The Eleusinian Mysteries were initiations held every year for the cult of Demeter and Persephone based at the Panhellenic Sanctuary of Eleusis in ancient Greece. They are the “most famous of the secret religious rites of ancient Greece”. Their basis was an old agrarian cult, and there is some evidence that they were derived from the religious practices of the Mycenean period.
The Mysteries represented the myth of the abduction of Persephone from her mother Demeter by the king of the underworld Hades, in a cycle with three phases: the descent (loss), the search, and the ascent, with the main theme being the ascent (ἄνοδος) of Persephone and the reunion with her mother.
Steefen
In agrarian fashion, a human being goes down into the earth into the realm of no photosynthesis and no breath of fresh air for the living. There is an ascent from this abode with Hades, king of the underworld.
1 Peter 4th Chapter 6th Verse
That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Ephesians Chapter 4, Verse 9
What does “He ascended” mean(?) except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
- Saint Paul teaches us in Ephesians 4:9 that Christ our Lord descended into Hell after He offered His life on the cross. “Now that He ascended, what is it, but because He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?” Note here that Hell is described as having “parts” that is ** you do not have permission to see this link **
- Saint Peter said in Acts 2:24 that “God hath raised up Christ, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He should be holden by it.” Christ loosed the Old Testament saints from hell.
- Saint Peter also wrote in 1 Peter 3:19 that “Christ coming in spirit preached to those spirits that were in prison, which had some time been incredulous.” On this verse, Saint Athanasius says that “Christ’s body was laid in the sepulchre when He went to preach to those spirits who were in bondage, as Peter said.” (Ep. ad Epict.)
- The prophet Hosea foretold the descent of Christ into Hell in Hosea 13:14 by placing these words into the mouth of the Messiah: “O death, I will be thy death; O hell, I will be thy bite.”
- Zechariah foretells the redemption of those in the Limbo of the Fathers in Zech 9:11: “Thou also by the blood of Thy Testament hast sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit.” What could this mean except that the Messiah would free people from the underworld?
- Colossians 2:15: “Despoiling the principalities and powers, He hath exposed them confidently.” This refers to Christ’s victory over the condemned angels who are the demons of Hell.
- Psalm 23:7: “Lift up your gates, O ye princes,” which the medieval Gloss interprets: “that is–Ye princes of hell, take away your power, whereby hitherto you held men fast in hell”.
- In Ecclesiasticus 24:45, Siracides (author of Sirach) prophecies: “I will penetrate to all the lower parts of the earth.”
Wikipedia (continued)
It was a major festival during the Hellenic era, and later spread to Rome. Similar religious rites appear in the agricultural societies of Near East and in Minoan Crete.
The rites, ceremonies, and beliefs were kept secret and consistently preserved from antiquity. For the initiated, the rebirth of Persephone symbolized the eternity of life which flows from generation to generation, and they believed that they would have a reward in the afterlife.
Steefen
Paulline Christianity would have to compete with
Serapis
Mithras
Dionysus,
the imperial cults of Julius Caesar and Caesar Augustus
the imperial cults of Vespasian and Titus, and
The Elusinian Mysteries
Wikipedia (continued)
There are many paintings and pieces of pottery that depict various aspects of the Mysteries. Since the Mysteries involved visions and conjuring of an afterlife, some scholars believe that the power and longevity of the Eleusinian Mysteries, a consistent set of rites, ceremonies and experiences that spanned two millennia, came from psychedelic drugs. The name of the town, Eleusís, seems to be Pre-Greek, and is likely a counterpart with Elysium and the goddess Eileithyia
Paul didn’t write Ephesians. That was a later writing written in his name. The descent is after Jesus died. Thus, descent and death are not equivalents directly.
Hosea wrote nothing about Christ.
As for “competition”, I’m not sure you understand how most ancient pagan religions functioned. Christianity didn’t have to “compete” because most people were not exclusivists, i.e. they didn’t have an issue with merging religions. Regardless, if John Granger Cook is correct, than the mere existence of those cults merely made Christianity more successful because it was easily seen in analog.
Honestly though, I fail to see much of anything useful in the Eleusinian mysteries. The Imperial Cult of Rome is far more interesting and has far more valid parallels with Christian religion.
Ehrman has spoken about the Jerusalem Church and Pauline/Gentile Christianity. What are you calling your category under which Ephesians should be placed.
Those who wrote about the composite character of historical fiction, the Biblical Jesus Christ, explored many verses in the Hebrew scripture for ties to Jesus. The hero fiction that continued to pile on Hebrew Bible verses on the Biblical Jesus obviously thought the Hosea verse should be included with the other verses.
The point is not about how ancient pagan religions functioned. The point is about how a new religion was made evangelism-friendly. Pauline/Gentile Christianity has everything every other religion has and more.
Paulline Christianity would have to compete with
Serapis
Mithras
Dionysus
the imperial cults of Julius Caesar and Caesar Augustus
the imperial cults of Vespasian and Titus
The Elusinian Mysteries, and
Jesus would have to be a Platonic Logos and a Stoic sage.
As a king of the Kingdom of Righteousness/Heaven/God (competing with Herod the Great, Julius Caesar, Caesar Augustus, Vespasian, and Titus), Jesus or the Son of Man would have to know what would make him a good king.
See The First and the Fourth Discourses on Kingship by Dio Chrysostom.
You did not attribute Ephesians to Pauline Christianity. You said it was from “St. Paul” which is incorrect. The early forms of the letter do not contain the prescript saying it is written to Ephesus. I personally would say it is in the category of Deutero-Pauline.
And the fact that later Christians thought the verse was about the Christ, does not make it intended that way. Thus, saying that Hosea was writing about the Christ is incorrect. Later Christian authors merely ascribed to him that motivation.
How they functioned is important. If their function was not exclusivist, then the idea of “competition” is nonsensical. Which it is. It is overtly capitalist type thinking in a way.
Also, for someone who has said like four times they’d ignore me, you do a really bad job at actually ignoring me.
Chris_Hansen said
You did not attribute Ephesians to Pauline Christianity. You said it was from “St. Paul” which is incorrect. The early forms of the letter do not contain the prescript saying it is written to Ephesus. I personally would say it is in the category of Deutero-Pauline.And the fact that later Christians thought the verse was about the Christ, does not make it intended that way. Thus, saying that Hosea was writing about the Christ is incorrect. Later Christian authors merely ascribed to him that motivation.
How they functioned is important. If their function was not exclusivist, then the idea of “competition” is nonsensical. Which it is. It is overtly capitalist type thinking in a way.
Also, for someone who has said like four times they’d ignore me, you do a really bad job at actually ignoring me.
Sure, there are the authentic letters of Paul of which Ephesians is not one of them.
Question (again): Ehrman has spoken about the Jerusalem Church and Pauline/Gentile Christianity. What are you calling your category under which Ephesians should be placed?
Your Answer:
There is the Jerusalem Church.
There is Pauline/Gentile Christianity.
There is Deutero-Pauline Christianity. Ephesians would be placed here. Deutero-means second/secondary.
Your three categories are not really three categories. The original two categories is a better answer. It is okay to add the authentic letters of Paul information, but it is not necessary.
Move from competition to syncretism, either way Pauline Christianity with its secondary material includes in its amalgamation:
Serapis
Mithras
Dionysus
the imperial cults of Julius Caesar and Caesar Augustus
the imperial cults of Vespasian and Titus
The Elusinian Mysteries, and
Jesus would have to be a Platonic Logos and a Stoic sage.
As a king of the Kingdom of Righteousness/Heaven/God (competing with Herod the Great, Julius Caesar, Caesar Augustus, Vespasian, and Titus), Jesus or the Son of Man would have to know what would make him a good king.
See The First and the Fourth Discourses on Kingship by Dio Chrysostom.
There is no convincing evidence anywhere that Paul’s syncretism includes Mithraism, Eleusinian, or Serapis cult work. Scholars have tried and failed for years to make that connection and it is almost entirely subjective, especially Mithraism and Serapis.
The Imperial Cults, Stoicism, and Platonism are the only three things which I think have any real and valid parallels in Paul’s work.
And again, you are really bad at ignoring me.
Also, I would argue Ephesians is best categorized as Post-Pauline Christianity. It is not Pauline, definitely not of the same generation, and shows different and newer developments. So, I would contend it is in the same school of thought, but a later variant of it, thus, Post-Pauline. Your binary categories don’t make much sense.
It is not subjective that the real estate of Mihtraism was used by Christianity.
It is not subjective that General Vespasian was inspired by Serapis, then the Biblical Jesus ala (in the manner of) Vespasian is also recorded as having healed a blind man and a lame man.
= = =
Your error: my binary categories do not make much sense
should be
The binary categories you are using do not make much sense to me (Chris Hansen).
I did not decide to canonize Ephesians into the The New Testament / The Bible. Once we have a canonical New Testament there is only the Jerusalem Church of Jesus and the Judaism Lite/Gentile Christianity of Paul.
There has been an offshoot of Post-Pauline Christianity from the Gentile Christianity of Paul? Who was its Pope? How many bishops did it have? Let’s make sense of what you are saying. There is a post-Gentile Christianity called Post-Pauline Christianity?
Christianity did not use Mithraic “real estate” until much later. There is no evidence for their co-mingling in the first century.
Healing a blind man is a miraculous trait found in numerous tales. It did not originate with Vespasian. The account of Vespasian healing the blind doesn’t not even exist until the second century when Suetonius creates it, long after Paul at least the first three Gospels were written.
There was no pope. Offshoots do not require popes. That isn’t how the evolution of religions work. I also did not say “post-gentile” I said it was Post-Pauline, which Ephesians is. Ephesians has numerous elements not found in the authentic Pauline epistles. It is a further evolution of that thought.
How many Bishops were in the Jerusalem church? Who was its pope? No one knows any of that either. It is irrelevant.
Chris_Hansen
Healing a blind man is a miraculous trait found in numerous tales. It did not originate with Vespasian. The account of Vespasian healing the blind doesn’t not even exist until the second century when Suetonius creates it, long after Paul at least the first three Gospels were written.
Steefen
Explain to us how we can know Vespasian did not live the experience or his supporters for him becoming Emperor did not disburse the propaganda before, as you assert, Suetonius made up the biographical event.
I can see the propaganda serving Vespasian while he was alive. Tell us how it served him after he had already died and been deified.
= = =
You do not have a strong case for Post-Gentile/Pauline Christianity. Bart wrote a book called Lost Christianities. Can you find your Post-Pauline Church among those? Sure, there are un-authentic letters of Paul but these writers did not rise to the two main divisions to create three. You have no leadership or structure for your proposal.
At least try to build a case that Post-Pauline Christianity appears in the Book of Revelation where a church of Ephesus is mentioned.
What is the point, anyway.
This is the point:
- Saint Paul teaches us in ** you do not have permission to see this link **
The point is whether or not the New Testament teaches Jesus descended into the Realm of the Dead AND did Jesus descend into Hell, not who wrote Ephesians. Ephesians is in the Bible: no argument on the real subject matter of this discussion.
So, some Christian wrote Saint Paul wrote in Ephesians 4:9 and there is nothing more that you are saying other than the sentence should start, the author of Ephesians wrote 4: 9.
Ephesians 4: 9 is in the New Testament, period.
See:
King James Bible
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
New King James Version
(Now this, “He ascended” —what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Explain to us how we can know Vespasian did not live the experience or his supporters for him becoming Emperor did not disburse the propaganda before, as you assert, Suetonius made up the biographical event.
I can see the propaganda serving Vespasian while he was alive. Tell us how it served him after he had already died and been deified.
Just because something could have happened before, does not mean that it did. Sure, he could have circulated the propaganda while still alive. That still doesn’t mean (1) that the Gospels were inspired by him, and (2) that something could happen does not increase what probably happened. You have not shown any evidence he did this in his lifetime, therefore, you merely have conjecture.
Can you find your Post-Pauline Church among those? Sure, there are un-authentic letters of Paul but these writers did not rise to the two main divisions to create three. You have no leadership or structure for your proposal.
There were not these so-called divisions. These “divisions” are things scholars artificially came up with to describe phenomena. They are ideal types. I merely came up with a third to make our ideal types more descriptive and more usable. Bart Ehrman is not the end all or be all of Christian scholarship. Nor are your opinions. That you cannot seem to grasp the fact that these divisions are artificial, and that we could easily divide Christianity in numerous different ways, is indicative of how little critical theory and critical methodology you’ve read on ancient Christianity. I would point you to recent scholarship arguing that the whole category of “gnostic” is nonsense as a case in point.
As for your last comments, they are irrelevant, incoherent, and once again just drivel. Come back when you have something to add of value.
Chris_Hansen said
Explain to us how we can know Vespasian did not live the experience or his supporters for him becoming Emperor did not disburse the propaganda before, as you assert, Suetonius made up the biographical event.
I can see the propaganda serving Vespasian while he was alive. Tell us how it served him after he had already died and been deified.
Just because something could have happened before, does not mean that it did. Sure, he could have circulated the propaganda while still alive. That still doesn’t mean (1) that the Gospels were inspired by him, and (2) that something could happen does not increase what probably happened. You have not shown any evidence he did this in his lifetime, therefore, you merely have conjecture.
Steefen
Not persuasive. Get to your persuasive points quicker.
Chris
The account of Vespasian healing the blind doesn’t not even exist until the second century when Suetonius creates it, long after Paul at least the first three Gospels were written.
Steefen
Give us articles or books that state Suetonius made up the event or the propaganda and why. If you do not have that, I do not have time for your erroneous, ungrounded assertions.
Chris
As for your last comments, they are irrelevant, incoherent, and once again just drivel. Come back when you have something to add of value.
Steefen
Wrong.
You may like expressing confidence but you should really stop confidently exhibiting your problems in reading comprehension.
The last comments brings the discussion back to the point: raising the dead to life and specifically raising the dead in Hell out of Hell-agrarian death and agrarian rebirth. You can say all you want that you do not think Christianity is not syncing with the Elusinian Mysteries but your erroneous headline means nothing without justification.
Demeter’s child annually is celebrated for coming back to life: Jesus (child of the Father) is annually celebrated for dying and coming back to life.
Canonized New Testament verses state Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth.
** you do not have permission to see this link ** is in the New Testament, period.
See:
King James Bible
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
New King James Version
(Now this, “He ascended” —what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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