Jarek said
vergari said
Jarek said
Robert said
Jarek said
??1 Clem is dated 97CE. Tertullian stated that Gal was found by Marcion and was previously unknown in Rome. Despite the 40-year difference between the publication of 1 Clem (97CE) and the publication of the Gal (135CE), we have allusions and references to Gal in 1 Clem.
Give me the quotations and references for Tertullian’s statements about Galatians being found by Marcion and previously being unknown in Rome. I’d also like to see the allusions and references to Galatians in 1 Clement. Then I will be able to have a more intelligent discussion with you about this. Alas, I am not a Tertullian scholar. Is there any reason to suspect that Tertullian should have been intimately familiar with 1 Clement or all of the writings known in the churches of Rome?
When it comes to chronology, I bet on 1Thes written first by a ghost writer. The publisher then made a routine carrot and stick move and got the next ghost writer to write 2Thes. On the one hand, he appreciated the creation and content of 1 Thes. On the other hand, he showed the author of 1 Thes that he is not the only one. This has a positive effect on the relationship of the writer-publisher and disciplines the author in terms of timeliness and quality of work. Never gets old.
So now you agree with the points of development in the authentic letters of Paul?
Against Marcion Book 4 Chapter 3
“In the scheme of Marcion, on the contrary,(4) the mystery(5) of the Christian religion begins from the discipleship of Luke. Since, however, it was on its course previous to that point, it must have had(6) its own authentic materials,(7) by means of which it found its own way down to St. Luke; and by the assistance of the testimony which it bore, Luke himself becomes admissible. Well, but(8) Marcion, finding the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians (wherein he rebukes even apostles(9)) for “not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel,”(10) as well as accuses certain false apostles of perverting the gospel of Christ), labours very hard to destroy the character(11) of those Gospels which are published as genuine(12) and under the name of apostles, in order, forsooth, to secure for his own Gospel the credit which he takes away from them. “
Hagner, Use of The Old and New testament, p.222
1Clem 5:2 to Gal 2:9, 1Clem 56:1 to Gal 6:1, 1Clem 31:2 to Gal 3
Whether Tertullian knew 1 Clem is irrelevant. It is about the dating of 1 Clem and the date of Gal’s appearance on the market.
Is there any biblical scholar at any university in the world who has interpreted the phrase “finding the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians” to mean that Marcion “discovered” the epistle?? I get that this has now turned into a mythic trope, but does any learned scholar believe this?
The verb Tertullian used in Latin (nactus) is pretty much universally translated as “received” or “acquired.” The verb for “found” in the case of discovery is repperit. The word nactus could mean “stumbled upon,” but this use does not imply discovery; merely acquiring the knowledge about (typically in a “late to the party” way).
Markus Vinzent wrote a book about 2 Pauline Corpuses – with GAL and without. Will be published soon by CUP.”Based on our witnesses (Tertullian, Epiphanius …) and on papyri and manuscript variations in the tradition of the Epistles, it is clear that they attest to two very different collections of Paul’s letters. More on this I am publishing in the nearer future with a book by CUP, but which I am now detailing in the current study.”
Not sure how this is responsive to the question I asked about translation of Tertullian’s Latin.
vergari said
Jarek said
finding, having got, got a hold of, …
Nice dodge. I take it you are conceding that you have found no credentialed biblical scholar who agrees with your translation. Surely, Vinzent doesn’t, because he regards Galatians as authentically Pauline.
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I don’t translate anything because I don’t know Latin. I cited 3 translations of 3 Tertullian specialists. What do you mean? Who else has to comment?
Jarek said
vergari said
Jarek said
finding, having got, got a hold of, …
Nice dodge. I take it you are conceding that you have found no credentialed biblical scholar who agrees with your translation. Surely, Vinzent doesn’t, because he regards Galatians as authentically Pauline.
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I don’t translate anything because I don’t know Latin. I cited 3 translations of 3 Tertullian specialists. What do you mean? Who else has to comment?
Obviously, there’s no quibbling with those translations; and nothing about those translations implies that Marcion discovered Galatians.
Omar6741 said
Stephen said
Joseph is namechecked in our sources. Might as well ask if Joseph and Mary were both invented because Jesus’ parents were unknown to his followers. Or to put it another way, there’s just as much evidence for Joseph as there is for Mary. We have stories.
Well, we have earlier evidence for Mary, in Mark 6:3 :—
Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him.
Jesus had to have a mother (unless he literally descended from heaven, or was spontaneously generated). In first century Palestine, it is a pretty good guess that her name would have been Mary, since that was the most common female name. So the existence of “Mary” is, to that extent, assured independently of any evidence.
His siblings also had to have a father as well. Also, the claim that Jesus had siblings is not something Christians would have invented so it stands to reason that Jesus’ father was Joseph.
Robert said
Convinced by benchmarks, what does that even mean?Jarek said
Paul’s letters refer to this glorious past of itinerrant preachers after divine revelation …
No way. Paul’s letters hardly refer to any glorious past of itinerant preachers. The only portrait of Paul that we can glean from his letters is that of multiple conflicts and arguments not only with his rivals but even with the communities that he himself founded. Maybe you’re thinking of an idealized legendary portrait of Paul from Acts?
Indeed, the arguments Paul has with actual disciples of Jesus is evidence of their authenticity. As well as him writing to a church in Rome that didn’t like him. Those aren’t things people would invent.
BDEhrman
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Robert