We don’t know if what he preached was anything like the descriptions in the Gospels. They were written decades after he was crucified. So, technically, yours is a question that can’t be answered (unless you’re a fundamentalist or evangelist who believes in the inerrancy of the Bible).
But, for the sake of argument, let’s say he did preach of the coming Son of Man, in my opinion, yes he would be a false prophet because unlike Christians who believe “this generation” is allegorical and doesn’t mean what it literally says, I do believe that “this generation” was literally meant.
Well yeah technically speaking “false” would be correct. But there is a distinction to be made between someone who acts out of serious belief and is deluded and someone who intentionally attempts to deceive. I think Jesus and his followers thought he was a “real” prophet. They just turned out to be wrong. Perhaps we might restrict the definer “false” to those who fit my second definition. Otherwise calling someone a “false” prophet implies there might be “true” prophets and that has yet to be demonstrated.
dbowers said
Can Jesus rightfully be described as a false prophet considering his prediction of the coming cosmic judge, “The Son of Man” never did come during the lifetime of Jesus or his disciples–as he had promised and predicted?
Jesus of Nazareth was perhaps inspired, yet that does not mean everything he said was true. He could easily make mistakes in interpreting his mystical experiences and visions, if that is what he in fact did.
Stephen said
Well yeah technically speaking “false” would be correct. But there is a distinction to be made between someone who acts out of serious belief and is deluded and someone who intentionally attempts to deceive. I think Jesus and his followers thought he was a “real” prophet. They just turned out to be wrong. Perhaps we might restrict the definer “false” to those who fit my second definition. Otherwise calling someone a “false” prophet implies there might be “true” prophets and that has yet to be demonstrated.
Agreed and lets not forget that the distinction false prophet has a specific connotation consistent with the second definition and has often been used to describe other christians who have differing belief’s. Perhaps we should use malprophet,? spyprophet? crypto prophet? Jesus will encrypt all your files till you see the son of man returning on the clouds or you pay the $250.
Hi Guys,
There are some people who believe that this was fulfilled in AD 70. I read the arguments some time ago but can’t remember the details here.
Also the word that is translated as come or coming is one of several different Greek words which have different meanings. This changes the complexion of what is being said, presence is a very different word to coming.
Teresa x
teresa said
Hi Guys,There are some people who believe that this was fulfilled in AD 70. I read the arguments some time ago but can’t remember the details here.
Also the word that is translated as come or coming is one of several different Greek words which have different meanings. This changes the complexion of what is being said, presence is a very different word to coming.
Teresa x
T:
could you clarify a bit on what this referrs to?
Hi Spiker,
dbowers said
Can Jesus rightfully be described as a false prophet considering his prediction of the coming cosmic judge, “The Son of Man” never did come during the lifetime of Jesus or his disciples–as he had promised and predicted?
Sorry I didn’t make it clear, it was this I was referring to in my rather cryptic posting.
There is an argument that the prophecies Jesus made concerning his coming and the signs that would accompany it were fulfilled in AD 70 when the temple at Jeruslame was destroyed. I’m primarily referring to the account by the Jewish historian Josephus and his book called “Wars of the Jews” which makes interesting reading.
My second point about the different Greek words translated as coming makes an interesting study and changes the way that we interpret that word.
Hope this clarifies things.
Teresa X
teresa said
Hi Spiker,Sorry I didn’t make it clear, it was this I was referring to in my rather cryptic posting.
There is an argument that the prophecies Jesus made concerning his coming and the signs that would accompany it were fulfilled in AD 70 when the temple at Jeruslame was destroyed. I’m primarily referring to the account by the Jewish historian Josephus and his book called “Wars of the Jews” which makes interesting reading.
My second point about the different Greek words translated as coming makes an interesting study and changes the way that we interpret that word.
Hope this clarifies things.
Teresa X
A bit odd for a non Christian to be claiming that prophecies about Jesus were fulfilled( Was he writing about a group who made that claim?). I do understand the tendency to declare the destruction of the temple a fulfillment of prophecy. For me this is all a bit of a stretch: Take a look at Mark 13:1-3. Forget whether Jesus actually said this, why should one treat that passage as a prophecy? Why no reference to the Romans as the destroyers, why nothing specific
RE: no son of man coming on the clouds. No doubt this is where your second point comes(Is that a pun?) into play. So how should the passage be read or what are the possible interpretations
Hi Spiker,
No pun intended and Jospehus was a Jewish historian who witnessed the events as they happened. I remember reading his account many years ago from a book that had the smallest print I had ever seen, thankfully it’s all available online now.
As regards the Mark 13 reference this is part of Josephus’ description of the destruction of the temple
“The Temple Mount, everywhere enveloped in flames, seemed to be boiling over from its base; yet the blood seemed more abundant than the flames and the numbers of the slain greater than those of the slayers. ”
The destruction of building and The Jewish people who were there seemed pretty much complete.
If Josephus is to be believed there were also signs in the heavens as well.
As regards the different Greek words for the Word translated “coming” I need to look at some notes I made a few years ago and will get back to you. By the way, I am not a scholar and only speak a little modern Greek so my studies are based upon a concordance and the studies of those people who are scholars.
Teresa x
Matthew 22. Verse 7 says, “The king was enraged. He sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city,”
“The Temple Mount, everywhere enveloped in flames, seemed to be boiling over from its base; yet the blood seemed more abundant than the flames and the numbers of the slain greater than those of the slayers. ”
when mark is mentioning the destruction of the temple ,isn’t it possible that he knew it was destroyed but did not know that the fire enveloped it ? does it seem like matthew seems to be alluding to the fire which destroyed the temple ?
teresa said
No pun intended and Jospehus was a Jewish historian who witnessed the events as they happened. I remember reading his account many years ago from a book that had the smallest print I had ever seen, thankfully it’s all available online now.
As regards the Mark 13 reference this is part of Josephus’ description of the destruction of the temple
“The Temple Mount, everywhere enveloped in flames, seemed to be boiling over from its base; yet the blood seemed more abundant than the flames and the numbers of the slain greater than those of the slayers. ”
The destruction of building and The Jewish people who were there seemed pretty much complete.
If Josephus is to be believed there were also signs in the heavens as well.
Thanks, T!
But this seems different, “There is an argument that the prophecies Jesus made concerning his coming and the signs that would accompany it were fulfilled in AD 70 when the temple at Jeruslame was destroyed.” While we can clearly see why people might claim the prophecies came true because of the destruction of the Temple, I doubt Josephus would think the destruction of the Temple was the fulfillment of Jesus prophecies concerning his coming. This is to say, I can understand why the the destruction of the Temple might be understood as confirmation of statements attributed to Jesus, but I suspect if Josephus believed that this was a fulfillment of Jesus prophecy, he would have converted to Christianity. My sense is Josephus may have also been an apocalyptic Jew: Like Jesus he expected God to intervene and defeat his enemies, but it doesn’t sound right to think he saw it the same way Christians did.
As regards the different Greek words for the Word translated “coming” I need to look at some notes I made a few years ago and will get back to you. By the way, I am not a scholar and only speak a little modern Greek so my studies are based upon a concordance and the studies of those people who are scholars.
Teresa x
You’re way ahead of me if you can speak any Greek. I don’t think any of us here are scholars. Their are some who come close, but most of us are amateurs: those whose knowledge is based upon the studies of those people who are scholars; ; so if someone has a piece of info that might make something clearer, it’s worth hearing. My sense about the passage is that it makes sense to mean that the Son of Man will literally appear and set things right.
A: “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
B :But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.”
C : then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”
D: But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’ ”
no christian will play around with verses C and D, but the “you will see” in verse A means ABSENCE of jesus ?
spiker said
teresa said
No pun intended and Jospehus was a Jewish historian who witnessed the events as they happened. I remember reading his account many years ago from a book that had the smallest print I had ever seen, thankfully it’s all available online now.As regards the Mark 13 reference this is part of Josephus’ description of the destruction of the temple
“The Temple Mount, everywhere enveloped in flames, seemed to be boiling over from its base; yet the blood seemed more abundant than the flames and the numbers of the slain greater than those of the slayers. ”
The destruction of building and The Jewish people who were there seemed pretty much complete.
If Josephus is to be believed there were also signs in the heavens as well.
Thanks, T!
But this seems different, “There is an argument that the prophecies Jesus made concerning his coming and the signs that would accompany it were fulfilled in AD 70 when the temple at Jeruslame was destroyed.” While we can clearly see why people might claim the prophecies came true because of the destruction of the Temple, I doubt Josephus would think the destruction of the Temple was the fulfillment of Jesus prophecies concerning his coming. This is to say, I can understand why the the destruction of the Temple might be understood as confirmation of statements attributed to Jesus, but I suspect if Josephus believed that this was a fulfillment of Jesus prophecy, he would have converted to Christianity. My sense is Josephus may have also been an apocalyptic Jew: Like Jesus he expected God to intervene and defeat his enemies, but it doesn’t sound right to think he saw it the same way Christians did.
You’re way ahead of me if you can speak any Greek. I don’t think any of us here are scholars. Their are some who come close, but most of us are amateurs: those whose knowledge is based upon the studies of those people who are scholars; ; so if someone has a piece of info that might make something clearer, it’s worth hearing. My sense about the passage is that it makes sense to mean that the Son of Man will literally appear and set things right.
Hi Spiker,
Josephus wasn’t a Christian he was a Jew who as far as I can tell had a father from the priesthood and a mother descended from a royal line. He had fought against the Romans but was captured and became a slave but was later freed. I don’t believe he saw the destruction of the temple and overthrow of the Jewish nation as a fulfilment of Jesus prophecies but I do believe he linked it back to the OT prophecies.
His very graphic accounts are worth reading but bear in mind that he was writing for a Roman audience.
As regards the different words for “come”. There is one word “erchomai” which is commonly used in Greek today but I can’t say I heard the others used but as I say my Greek is very basic.
The other words used in the New Testament are “parousia” G3952 presence, apokalypsis G602 revelation and epiphany G2015 appearance. The no’s are the Strongs ref no’s.
I’m sure the Prof would be able to enlighten us further but there’s quite a lot that can be gleaned from the Internet.
Teresa x
Not sure what your point is. No one; not even fundies deny Jesus was “absent” after his death.
A: “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
the point was that the high priest didn’t see the son of man coming on clouds.
but in verses like this
D: But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’ ”
fundies believe jesus was seen when it says “you will see…”
I don’t believe he saw the destruction of the temple and overthrow of the Jewish nation as a fulfilment of Jesus prophecies but I do believe he linked it back to the OT prophecies.
do you know which verses in the ot? thanks
Kazibwe Edris said
I don’t believe he saw the destruction of the temple and overthrow of the Jewish nation as a fulfilment of Jesus prophecies but I do believe he linked it back to the OT prophecies.
do you know which verses in the ot? thanks
Hi Kazibwe,
This is a quote from his “Antiquities of the Jews” X. X1. 7 “In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them.”
Hope this helps,
Teresa X
I don’t believe he saw the destruction of the temple and overthrow of the Jewish nation as a fulfilment of Jesus prophecies.
Ok T
I’m a bit lost here because it looked like you were saying Josephus saw the destruction of the temple as the fulfillment of Jesus prophecies. I’m guessing you may have meant he saw them in a similar way. That’s why I speculated about his being an apocalyptic Jew rather than a Christian. His status as a non Christian is pretty clear from his biograghy or so I’m told.
Likewise, I might have missed your point about the Greek word for coming. In what way does that affect our understanding of the verse talking about The Son of Man coming on the clouds?
I couldn’t wait and poked around a bit. Don’t laugh at my feeble attempt to make sense of this, but it seems if the word parousia was used in that verse, it refers to something like the arrival of a king. In that context arriving may have been a better way to translate the passage. If that’s the case, I think I missed the point you were making re: the fulfillment of prophecy.
My sense is that the destruction of the temple would soon be followed by the arrival of the son of man; so that it would be highly problematic to see the Roman destruction of the temple confirming prophecy since a crucial event of this “prediction” didn’t happen.
Of course, in the case of Josephus, one wonders if he expected the son of man or some other event after the temple was destroyed.
Lastly I fear I will never get to Josephus. While Bart says he reads 150 to 200 book in a 2 to 3 year period of research, I doubt I will read that many in my lifetime!
spiker said
I don’t believe he saw the destruction of the temple and overthrow of the Jewish nation as a fulfilment of Jesus prophecies.
Ok T
I’m a bit lost here because it looked like you were saying Josephus saw the destruction of the temple as the fulfillment of Jesus prophecies. I’m guessing you may have meant he saw them in a similar way. That’s why I speculated about his being an apocalyptic Jew rather than a Christian. His status as a non Christian is pretty clear from his biograghy or so I’m told.
Likewise, I might have missed your point about the Greek word for coming. In what way does that affect our understanding of the verse talking about The Son of Man coming on the clouds?
I couldn’t wait and poked around a bit. Don’t laugh at my feeble attempt to make sense of this, but it seems if the word parousia was used in that verse, it refers to something like the arrival of a king. In that context arriving may have been a better way to translate the passage. If that’s the case, I think I missed the point you were making re: the fulfillment of prophecy.
My sense is that the destruction of the temple would soon be followed by the arrival of the son of man; so that it would be highly problematic to see the Roman destruction of the temple confirming prophecy since a crucial event of this “prediction” didn’t happen.
Of course, in the case of Josephus, one wonders if he expected the son of man or some other event after the temple was destroyed.
Lastly I fear I will never get to Josephus. While Bart says he reads 150 to 200 book in a 2 to 3 year period of research, I doubt I will read that many in my lifetime!
Hi Spiker,
Sorry I’ve given the wrong impression. My point in quoting Josephus was to show that the events that happened were so cataclysmic that they could be interpreted as the fulfilment of Jesus’ prophecies and had Josephus known them ( I don’t think he did) he may have reached the same conclusion.
Re the “parousia” I must admit I started form a viewpoint of not believing in the physical return of Jesus because ( theology alert) as far as I can see the emphasis after the resurrection is on a spiritual kingdom not an earthly one, so I went through all of the scriptures which spoke about this. For me because of the word (presence) used I feel quite happy to continue to believe that.
I must say though, that I’ve enjoyed looking into this again. With the Internet it’s now possible for the layperson to have access to the information that only theology students i.e future minister would have known about before and they never enlightened us.
Teresa x
In what way does that affect our understanding of the verse talking about The Son of Man coming on the clouds?
Hi Spiker,
I’ve just reread what you have written and whilst I’ve replied I missed this bit. Have you considered that this may not be speaking of literal clouds?
Once again (I must have the memory of a gnat I vaguely remember something but not the details ) I’ve read about the use of Jewish imagery and is it in Hebrews where the “cloud of witnesses “is spoken of?
Teresa x
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)