What is the difference between my Jesus and Robert’s Jesus?
My Jesus appears suddenly and suddenly disappears, leaving behind a heartbreaking story of the end of his live. An almost perfect story. Someone added a messiah term or a son of man to it, which greatly weakened the enthusiasm of most of the audience. But still, Anointed One’s devotee clubs were established in various parts of the Empire. My Jesus is not verified by them, no one sends his mother to find the cross on which he hung. My Jesus left behind nothing but a strong desire that he was real. Sacrifice – Judgment – Crucifixion. No teachings. A very humble inheritance passed on from mouth to mouth and an extraordinary power of faith.
Anointed One’s clubs developed a unique culture that was able to attract even their persecutors such as Saul. Brothers and Sisters, Equality, Common concern for everyone.
You have been invited to a meeting and either you have found yourself in that group of people or you have not. Saul became Paul. He stopped hitting these people. He wanted to join them. He devoted his life to them, providing them with inspiration and a huge amount of literature. Maybe. Heads or Tails?
These home congregations have found their way into the hearts of many scribes as well. I hope it was so and that the early Christian writings are not the result of commercial orders of smart prechers. Really, I hope so.
The writers completed the cv of Jesus, Paul got a whole lot of cv. In NT in apocrypha. Later Marcion, corpo structures, and somehow it worked out. The process has been perfected without losing enthusiasm and without compromising faith of the masses. On the top power struggle changed the rules.
Robert’s Jesus is not as fast as mine. He managed to become known during his lifetime as a teacher, as a rebel, as an apocalyptic prophet, as a man of spirit, …** you do not have permission to see this link **
While searching for the historical Jesus, the biblical scholars underestimated the importance of the faith of the first enthusiasts and went in a different direction. Bible scholars underestimated the attractiveness of these little clubs.
There must be the historical Jesus in the Bible.
It is 18% (Jesus Seminar). It is 5% (Ludemann).
Not at all. Does not have to.
And Again, Jesus is 100% in the Bible for those who don’t need to check. They are good people. Maybe you will join?
JAS said
There must be suitable treatments for this disorder.
So true! Survival of the fittest would seem logical except some are drawn to Jesus and His message in a way that makes us so very different. There is such
joy in living our lives with faith regardless of all proofs that it’s groundless!
Judith
There is such joy in living our lives with faith regardless of all proofs that it’s groundless!
I should have said “There is such joy – for some of us – in living our lives with faith … “
Years ago Godspell mentioned a poem about Jesus just caring that we hear His message. To me it seemed to relate to what Jarek means. Was unable to find it to share here.
Robert said
Jarek said
My Jesus appears suddenly and suddenly disappears, leaving behind a heartbreaking story of the end of his live. An almost perfect story. Someone added a messiah term or a son of man to it, which greatly weakened the enthusiasm of most of the audience.
What leads you to think someone added a messiah term or a son of man term? And what was their motivation for thus making an almost perfect story less popular?
If we like a story and its protagonist, we tend to exaggerate his deeds, his merits with sympathy for him. At one point, the enthusiastic listener saw him as a messiah, and his version of the story cut off most of the audience. He did it out of a strong conviction, which is why he chose this bumpy road.
Judith said
Judith
There is such joy in living our lives with faith regardless of all proofs that it’s groundless!
I should have said “There is such joy – for some of us – in living our lives with faith … “
Years ago Godspell mentioned a poem about Jesus just caring that we hear His message. To me it seemed to relate to what Jarek means. Was unable to find it to share here.
Good point. It is such a joy to live in faith shared with others and to be part of something greater together. Bible is just a book. Proofs? Irrelevant. Community is everything, the rest are just comments.
Again, the unique culture of the first communities of these commonly ridiculed “naive people” was the main force that attracted people to the movement. Paul got involved in the movement under the influence of the spiritual beauty of that culture. People came to the meetings and some of them just asked, “I’m fine with you here. Can I stay?”
It is such a joy to live in faith shared with others and to be part of something greater together.
It’s certainly a joy to those who are currently using the coercive power of our institutions to impose their religious superstitions on the rest of us.
Bible is just a book.
Sure, but not everybody got the memo.
It’s just guesswork. Due to far-reaching interpretation, the story became controversial and was not accepted by the majority. Those who accepted it became outcasts, hiding their commitment, persecuted as apostates. I pointed out those elements that could be considered blasphemy.
Development stages:
– an enigmatic story about the sacrifice and crucifixion of Jesus
– LXX exegesis supporting the story and thesis about the true role of Jesus
– gatherings of convinced believers with their unique culture
– new content is needed to maintain activity and extend the life of congregations – revelations Paul, Hermas, ..
– logia, gospel – Jesus Born Again Christ in “diary of the apostles”
The last step was very risky because suddenly something that was not on the market appears. But it worked, though not immediately. The Gospels are not authoritative for a long time, nor are Paul’s ideas. These were revolutionary products on the market where LXX exegesis dominated.
Stephen said
It is such a joy to live in faith shared with others and to be part of something greater together.It’s certainly a joy to those who are currently using the coercive power of our institutions to impose their religious superstitions on the rest of us.
Bible is just a book.
Sure, but not everybody got the memo.
In Poland, the largest women’s organization is the Catholic Family of Radio Maryja. It is not their fault that they are so large that all other women’s organizations counted together are almost an order of magnitude smaller. Abortion on demand in Poland has been banned for 30 years. Abortion is commonly considered a form of homicide. Cultural difference.
Robert said
Jarek said
It’s just guesswork. Due to far-reaching interpretation, the story became controversial and was not accepted by the majority. Those who accepted it became outcasts, hiding their commitment, persecuted as apostates. I pointed out those elements that could be considered blasphemy.
Development stages:
– an enigmatic story about the sacrifice and crucifixion of Jesus
– LXX exegesis supporting the story and thesis about the true role of Jesus
– gatherings of convinced believers with their unique culture
– new content is needed to maintain activity and extend the life of congregations – revelations Paul, Hermas, ..
– logia, gospel – Jesus Born Again Christ in “diary of the apostles”
The last step was very risky because suddenly something that was not on the market appears. But it worked, though not immediately. The Gospels are not authoritative for a long time, nor are Paul’s ideas. These were revolutionary products on the market where LXX exegesis dominated.
Guesswork! What happened to your previous stellar reputation as a skeptic? A true skeptic is able to effectively critique even his own carefully developed ideas. But guesswork? You have no carefully developed rationale and method to develop, let alone critique, your ideas?
With respect to your developmental stages outlined above, are you now saying that the messiah term was only added at the final stage (Jesus Born Again Christ)?
I don’t quite understand what you mean. Where did these personal questions and lessons come from? “What happened to … Real skeptic ..”
So what? Do you really expect an answer to this?
This reconstruction is based on a critical approach to Paul’s letters. There is nothing about Jesus’ life but death and resurrection. Elements from the original message about him. Paul functions in clubs where there is no Nazareth, John the Baptist, Mary, Pilate, …
For Paul, Jesus is Christ Jesus, Jesus Christ is something like Jarek Stolarz, Stolarz Jarek. First name and last name. Nevertheless, he is called Christ. What was the meaning of the term Messiah? Various. It was on the coins of many rulers, in the form of an inscription or a star, it was in the LXX, in the oral tradition. It was used and probably abused.
Messiah is added to Jesus at the beginning and as a result most people ignore the story.
I would compare the beginning of Christianity to the story of Marian apparitions in Medjugorje.
Most of the Catholics in Poland were skeptical and dissatisfied with the fact that here is Mary calling again. The Church rejected the apparitions, leaving of course the door open “we are still researching”. But in some parishes there were a few enthusiasts who organized the first trips to the apparition site. They turned into regular annual pilgrimages. A young priest organized them and was a guide. The Medjugorie apparition enthusiast movement grew slowly. At one point, the priest suggested to the pilgrims that it was worth organizing Radio Maryja. And that’s how it happened. It was created from the payments of the faithful. I know people who spend 30% of their income on radio every month. For many years. The Radio Maryja family is the largest social movement in Poland – about 5 million people. In 20 years. Starting point – a story.
Jarek said
Robert said
Jarek said
It’s just guesswork. Due to far-reaching interpretation, the story became controversial and was not accepted by the majority. Those who accepted it became outcasts, hiding their commitment, persecuted as apostates. I pointed out those elements that could be considered blasphemy.
Development stages:
– an enigmatic story about the sacrifice and crucifixion of Jesus
– LXX exegesis supporting the story and thesis about the true role of Jesus
– gatherings of convinced believers with their unique culture
– new content is needed to maintain activity and extend the life of congregations – revelations Paul, Hermas, ..
– logia, gospel – Jesus Born Again Christ in “diary of the apostles”
The last step was very risky because suddenly something that was not on the market appears. But it worked, though not immediately. The Gospels are not authoritative for a long time, nor are Paul’s ideas. These were revolutionary products on the market where LXX exegesis dominated.
Guesswork! What happened to your previous stellar reputation as a skeptic? A true skeptic is able to effectively critique even his own carefully developed ideas. But guesswork? You have no carefully developed rationale and method to develop, let alone critique, your ideas?
With respect to your developmental stages outlined above, are you now saying that the messiah term was only added at the final stage (Jesus Born Again Christ)?
I don’t quite understand what you mean. Where did these personal questions and lessons come from? “What happened to … Real skeptic ..”
So what? Do you really expect an answer to this?
This reconstruction is based on a critical approach to Paul’s letters. There is nothing about Jesus’ life but death and resurrection. Elements from the original message about him. Paul functions in clubs where there is no Nazareth, John the Baptist, Mary, Pilate, …
For Paul, Jesus is Christ Jesus, Jesus Christ is something like Jarek Stolarz, Stolarz Jarek. First name and last name. Nevertheless, he is called Christ. What was the meaning of the term Messiah? Various. It was on the coins of many rulers, in the form of an inscription or a star, it was in the LXX, in the oral tradition. It was used and probably abused.
Messiah is added to Jesus at the beginning and as a result most people ignore the story.
I would compare the beginning of Christianity to the story of Marian apparitions in Medjugorje.
Most of the Catholics in Poland were skeptical and dissatisfied with the fact that here is Mary calling again. The Church rejected the apparitions, leaving of course the door open “we are still researching”. But in some parishes there were a few enthusiasts who organized the first trips to the apparition site. They turned into regular annual pilgrimages. A young priest organized them and was a guide. The Medjugorie apparition enthusiast movement grew slowly. At one point, the priest suggested to the pilgrims that it was worth organizing Radio Maryja. And that’s how it happened. It was created from the payments of the faithful. I know people who spend 30% of their income on radio every month. For many years. The Radio Maryja family is the largest social movement in Poland – about 5 million people. In 20 years. Starting point – a story.
Again, the question is why most have rejected the story of sacrifice, of the crucifixion, of miteriuos Jesus. Maybe it just seemed invented and untrue to them? The creation of a man who liked to tell? Another guess
Robert said
Jarek said
I don’t quite understand what you mean. Where did these personal questions and lessons come from? “What happened to … Real skeptic ..” So what? Do you really expect an answer to this?
Sorry, I don’t mean to be any more personal than you’ve already been about your own exceedingly doubtful approach to anything that scholars say.
This reconstruction is based on a critical approach to Paul’s letters.
This may be a language issue. When I speak of critical scholars, text criticism, redaction criticism, historical criticism, literary criticism, narrative criticism, etc, these all involve very well defined methodological criteria. It isn’t simply a matter of being critical of and making up alternative theories out of sheer guesswork.
For Paul, Jesus is Christ Jesus, Jesus Christ is something like Jarek Stolarz, Stolarz Jarek. First name and last name. Nevertheless, he is called Christ. What was the meaning of the term Messiah? Various. It was on the coins of many rulers, in the form of an inscription or a star, it was in the LXX, in the oral tradition. It was used and probably abused.
I don’t buy the last name approach to ‘Christ’. It has a meaning derived from its various usages in its native language and texts. When you speak of many rulers using the term Messiah on coins, can you give me some examples? I don’t know much about ancient coins. I am only aware of a few indirect uses, eg, bar Kokhba’s star, and would like to know of more.
“Paul employed both “Christ” and “** you do not have permission to see this link **.
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Christian Messianic symbol – Ichthys wheel
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Robert