When David becomes king, he moves the capital of Israel and the ark of the covenant to Jerusalem, the city where Melchizedek once ruled as priest-king. David is also both priest and king.
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Robert
In the original text, this is most likely not a psalm of David, as if David himself wrote or performed the psalm as if speaking in the first person. Rather the psalm was written and performed for David by a prophet who speaks for Yahweh to David. Thus the psalmist speaks of David as his lord and speaks for Yahweh to David, the royal lord of the psalmist.
Steefen
Why can’t the NSRV scholars and editors make the correction you explained?
Robert
a prophet who speaks for Yahweh to David. Thus the psalmist speaks of David as his lord and speaks for Yahweh to David, the royal lord of the psalmist.
Steefen
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”
The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion; you will rule in the midst of your enemies.
So, using your explanation:
The Lord God says to the Lord of the David’s prophet [King David]
The Lord God says to King David: Sit at my …
Now, let’s turn to the crucial passage: Matthew 22: 43-46
43) Jesus said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord’? For he says:
44) The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet.”’
45) So if David calls Him ‘Lord,’ how can He be David’s son?”
46) No one was able to answer a word, and from that day on no one dared to question Him any further.
Robert, Jesus is not saying David’s prophet is calling King David Lord. That is not how Jesus solves the riddle.
This is not psalm for David by David’s prophet. Jesus does not say David’s prophet is calling his king lord. Jesus says David is calling a pre-existing Christ Lord.
Robert said
Yes. Is that a problem?
It takes away from Jesus’ power in that moment.
That was supposed to be a moment for Jesus.
If Jesus didn’t know what you know about Hebrew, you are also saying the more educated (ala Bart Ehrman) Pharisees didn’t know what you know about Hebrew.
And Matthew didn’t know enough Hebrew either.
Robert said
Personally I doubt this event actually occurred during the life of Jesus, but rather was invented later on when early Christians were searching the scriptures to find support for their own exalted view of the risen Christ. But if Jesus or anyone else in the tradition was familiar with something like the Aramaic version of this psalm that is found in the later Targum, they would have thought it was correct that David himself composed this psalm. As far as we know the first person to actually use this story was the author of the gospel of Mark, who was most likely a Greek-speaking gentile writing some 40 years after the death of Jesus. Matthew may have known a little Hebrew but he liked the story he found in Mark’s gospel and may have seen no reason to go find an ambiguous Hebrew text of the psalm to check to see if it was being quoted most correctly in its original context. Sometimes Matthew shows some knowledge of Hebrew or Aramaic, but other times not at all. Besides, it’s not an impossible reading of the Hebrew, it’s just not the best reading of the Hebrew in its original context in my ever so humble opinion. Or if Matthew knew an Aramaic tradition behind the Targum, it was the correct reading of that translation.
1) The biblical King David–and the prophet you said recited the Psalm to David–spoke what language?
2) There is no evidence of Psalms outside of the Greek LXX, yes? We have to assume the LXX got your translation and interpretation correct, yes?
Wikipedia entry for Hebrew Bible
There is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed: some scholars argue that it was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty, while others argue it was not fixed until the second century CE or even later.
Wikipedia entry for Septuagint
‘The Translation of the Seventy’) derives from the story recorded in the Letter of Aristeas that the Hebrew Torah was translated into Greek at the request of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285–247 BCE) by 70 Jewish scholars or, according to later tradition, 72: six scholars from each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel,
The first five books of the Hebrew Bible, known as the Torah or the Pentateuch, were translated in the mid-3rd century BC. The remaining books of the Greek Old Testament are presumably translations of the 2nd century BC.
3) The Hebrew Bible comes centuries after the LXX.
4) I was entertaining the Oral Tradition approach that the biblical Jesus had this Matthean encounter with the Pharisees. You disagreed (I doubt the event occurred). Either way, what are you saying: 27 CE to 30 CE and 70 CE to 85 CE, the Psalms known by Pharisees, Jesus, and the writers of the gospels used what copy of the Psalms?
You are bringing in Aramaic because Jesus would have spoken to the Pharisees in Aramaic?
2) There is no evidence of Psalms outside of the Greek LXX, yes? We have to assume the LXX got your translation and interpretation correct, yes?
No on both counts. The psalms were originally written in Hebrew and still exist in Hebrew. All translations, whether in Greek, Aramaic, English, or any other language will not be perfect.
Steefen
You are saying the LXX scholars found a Hebrew version of the Psalms and translated that into Greek?
There is the 23rd Psalm that pulls themes from an amduat and the Book of the Dead–Egyptology. We would like to be absolutely sure that borrowing from Egypt is something that happened before LXX vs. happened when the LXX was compiled.
The Hebrew versions used by the LXX scholars probably were destroyed when the library was destroyed. The Hebrew versions survived until the time of Josephus’ writing of Antiquities? (The entire Psalms is not in Antiquities.)
Give us your evidence that King David did not write the psalm in question. In church, we were taught King David had a personal relationship with God, so some of the psalms would be written by him instead of read to him by a prophet. The headings in the Bible you use have at least two possibilities:
Psalms written by David
Psalms delivered to David by his prophet?
Steefen said
You are saying the LXX scholars found a Hebrew version of the Psalms and translated that into Greek?
Robert
Not quite. The LXX was merely the Greek translation of the Hebrew Torah. The Old Greek translation of the Hebrew psalms is commonly referred to as the LXX, but that’s just a convention of speech since the Hebrew psalms were not part of the Law or Prophets but of the Writings, the third major part of the Hebrew scriptures.
Steefen
Jewish Encylopedia / Bible Translations by Crawford Howell Toy, Richard Gottheil
The Septuagint
…It is a monument of the Greek spoken by the large and important Jewish community of Alexandria; not of classic Greek, nor even of the Hellenistic style affected by Alexandrian writers. If the account given by Aristeas be true, some traces of Palestinian influence should be found; but a study of the Egyptian papyri, which are abundant for this particular period, is said by both Mahaffy and Deissmann to show a very close similarity between the language they represent and that of the Septuagint, not to mention the Egyptian words already recognized by both Hody and Eichhorn. These papyri have in a measure reinstated Aristeas (about 200 B.C.) in the opinion of scholars. Upon his “Letter to Philocrates” the tradition as to the origin of the Septuagint rests. It is now believed that even though he may have been mistaken in some points, his facts in general are worthy of credence (Abrahams, in “Jew. Quart. Rev.” xiv. 321). According to Aristeas, the Pentateuch was translated at the time of Philadelphus, the second Ptolemy (285-247 B.C.), which translation was encouraged by the king and welcomed by the Jews of Alexandria. Grätz (“Gesch. der Juden,” 3d ed., iii. 615) stands alone in assigning it to the reign of Philometor (181-146 B.C.). Whatever share the king may have had in the work, it evidently satisfied a pressing need felt by the Jewish community, among whom a knowledge of Hebrew was rapidly waning before the demands of every-day life.
It is not known when the other books of the Bible were rendered into Greek. The grandson of Ben Sira (132 B.C.), in the prologue to his translation of his grandfather’s work, speaks of the “Law, Prophets, and the rest of the books” as being already current in his day. A Greek Chronicles is mentioned by Eupolemus (middle of second century B.C.); Aristeas, the historian, quotes Job; a foot-note to the Greek Esther seems to show that that book was in circulation before the end of the second century B.C.; and the Septuagint Psalter is quoted in I Macc. vii. 17. It is therefore more than probable that the whole of the Bible was translated into Greek before the beginning of the Christian era (Swete, “An Introduction to the O. T. in Greek,” ch. i.). The large number of Greek-speaking Jewish communities in Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and northern Africa must have facilitated its spread in all these regions. The quotations from the Old Testament found in the New are in the main taken from the Septuagint
Oxford Handbooks.com / Septuagint Psalter
Hellenistic scribes produced the most number of copies of the Psalter, a testament to the importance of the OG Psalter, also known as the Septuagint Psalter or LXX Psalms. The extraordinary number of textual witnesses confirms the significant place of the Psalter in the Jewish and the Christian liturgical traditions.
Orthodox Wiki
The Psalter also known as the Psalms, or Psalms of David is the Old Testament book that contains hymns and poems traditionally ascribed to the Holy Prophet and King David…
Dictionary
Septuagint: a Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament), including the Apocrypha, made for Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC and adopted by the early Christian Churches.
The Septuagint with Apocrypha: Greek and English by Lancelot C. Brenton Editor
This edition of The Septuagint with Apocrypha (the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament and the apocryphal books of the same linguistic origin) gives the complete Greek text along with a parallel English translation by Brenton.
The Lexham English Septuagint: A New Translation by Lexham Press
Table of Contents does include the Psalms.
= = =
Conclusion: The Septuagint written by the 70/72 Jewish scholars was not the entire TANAK, however, the Septuagint is now known to be the entire TANAK.
It is not known when [and specifically by whom, using what library, specifically] the Psalms were produced in Greek.
Then, we have no way of confirming the absence of corruption.
Wikipedia Entry for The Great Psalms Scroll
The Great Psalms Scroll, also referred to as 11Q5, is the most substantial and well preserved Dead Sea Scrolls Psalms manuscript of the thirty-seven discovered in the Qumran caves, six of which were discovered in Cave 11.
The reason this manuscript is of such great interest to scholars is due to its major deviance from the Masoretic Psalter. Its textual makeup is that of “apocryphal compositions interspersed with canonical psalms in a radically different order”. It contains approximately fifty compositions, forty of which are found in the Masoretic text. While some maintain the masoretic order, such as some of the Psalms of Ascent, others are scattered throughout in a different order.
11Q5 has generated a lot of interest in scholars due to its large difference from the Masoretic Psalter, “both in ordering of contents and in the presence of additional compositions.” It contains several compositions that are not present in the Masoretic Psalter of 150 hymns and prayers and therefore, “challenges traditional ideas concerning the shape and finalization of the book of Psalms.” There are eight non-Masoretic compositions with an additional prose composition that is not formatted like a psalm. Three highlighted compositions include “The Apostrophe to Zion”, “Plea for Deliverance”, and Psalm 151; in addition, the prose composition is researched to be known as “David’s Compositions.” While these are non-Masoretic, some of them, Psalm 151, was known in the Septuagint.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Most of my library has been put in storage. My Dead Sea Scrolls book is in storage.
Robert, is Psalm 110 in the Great Psalms Scroll or elsewhere in the Dead Sea Scrolls? That is our specific concern.
Robert
There’s no evidence that David wrote or did not write any of the psalms. Just scholarly opinions, some well founded, others less so.
Steefen
A moment ago, I read David was a prophet and a king. Yet, you originally said, the prophet king needed another prophet at Psalms 110.
Steefen said
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Your self published book is nothing special. Any dingus with wordpad can self publish a book.
Steefen said
Steefen said
You are saying the LXX scholars found a Hebrew version of the Psalms and translated that into Greek?
Robert
Not quite. The LXX was merely the Greek translation of the Hebrew Torah. The Old Greek translation of the Hebrew psalms is commonly referred to as the LXX, but that’s just a convention of speech since the Hebrew psalms were not part of the Law or Prophets but of the Writings, the third major part of the Hebrew scriptures.
Steefen
Jewish Encylopedia / Bible Translations by Crawford Howell Toy, Richard Gottheil
The Septuagint
…It is a monument of the Greek spoken by the large and important Jewish community of Alexandria; not of classic Greek, nor even of the Hellenistic style affected by Alexandrian writers. If the account given by Aristeas be true, some traces of Palestinian influence should be found; but a study of the Egyptian papyri, which are abundant for this particular period, is said by both Mahaffy and Deissmann to show a very close similarity between the language they represent and that of the Septuagint, not to mention the Egyptian words already recognized by both Hody and Eichhorn. These papyri have in a measure reinstated Aristeas (about 200 B.C.) in the opinion of scholars. Upon his “Letter to Philocrates” the tradition as to the origin of the Septuagint rests. It is now believed that even though he may have been mistaken in some points, his facts in general are worthy of credence (Abrahams, in “Jew. Quart. Rev.” xiv. 321). According to Aristeas, the Pentateuch was translated at the time of Philadelphus, the second Ptolemy (285-247 B.C.), which translation was encouraged by the king and welcomed by the Jews of Alexandria. Grätz (“Gesch. der Juden,” 3d ed., iii. 615) stands alone in assigning it to the reign of Philometor (181-146 B.C.). Whatever share the king may have had in the work, it evidently satisfied a pressing need felt by the Jewish community, among whom a knowledge of Hebrew was rapidly waning before the demands of every-day life.
It is not known when the other books of the Bible were rendered into Greek. The grandson of Ben Sira (132 B.C.), in the prologue to his translation of his grandfather’s work, speaks of the “Law, Prophets, and the rest of the books” as being already current in his day. A Greek Chronicles is mentioned by Eupolemus (middle of second century B.C.); Aristeas, the historian, quotes Job; a foot-note to the Greek Esther seems to show that that book was in circulation before the end of the second century B.C.; and the Septuagint Psalter is quoted in I Macc. vii. 17. It is therefore more than probable that the whole of the Bible was translated into Greek before the beginning of the Christian era (Swete, “An Introduction to the O. T. in Greek,” ch. i.). The large number of Greek-speaking Jewish communities in Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and northern Africa must have facilitated its spread in all these regions. The quotations from the Old Testament found in the New are in the main taken from the Septuagint
Oxford Handbooks.com / Septuagint Psalter
Hellenistic scribes produced the most number of copies of the Psalter, a testament to the importance of the OG Psalter, also known as the Septuagint Psalter or LXX Psalms. The extraordinary number of textual witnesses confirms the significant place of the Psalter in the Jewish and the Christian liturgical traditions.
Orthodox Wiki
The Psalter also known as the Psalms, or Psalms of David is the Old Testament book that contains hymns and poems traditionally ascribed to the Holy Prophet and King David…
Dictionary
Septuagint: a Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament), including the Apocrypha, made for Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC and adopted by the early Christian Churches.
The Septuagint with Apocrypha: Greek and English by Lancelot C. Brenton Editor
This edition of The Septuagint with Apocrypha (the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament and the apocryphal books of the same linguistic origin) gives the complete Greek text along with a parallel English translation by Brenton.
The Lexham English Septuagint: A New Translation by Lexham Press
Table of Contents does include the Psalms.
= = =
Conclusion: The Septuagint written by the 70/72 Jewish scholars was not the entire TANAK, however, the Septuagint is now known to be the entire TANAK.
It is not known when [and specifically by whom, using what library, specifically] the Psalms were produced in Greek.
Then, we have no way of confirming the absence of corruption.
That is one nice collection of words from random websites. And not a single updated scholarly one either.
Robert
I’m only saying that the psalm is writen that way, as if it were recited to David, not that this was an actual event in the life of David.
Steefen
That is an interpretation that allows no mystery; and, later, we get a second criticism of Jesus not using that interpretation in his moment of triumph against the Pharisees. In the back of Jesus’ mind is not King David was listening to his co-prophet. What is the moral of the story? The story is about the Messiah being a pre-existing entity going back to King David such that the then present-day Messiah is a descendant of King David. The pre-existing Messiah entity is a Son of David but King David calls him Lord. Jesus asks, why is that?
How would Professor Jesus answer the question he posed for an audience that was not antagonizing him?
A. The pre-existing Messiah entity continually goes back in time, he is not just a son of David, he is a son of the Moses, the deliverer as well.
B. The Messiah is not a descendant of David because David calls him Lord.
C. “The Lord God says to my lord, King David” shows any messianic activity ultimately comes from God. God alone is salvation.
I’d say, the answer is A or C, not B.
Mzejum, in the original post, is putting forth only the B interpretation. That interpretation is not the best answer.
BDEhrman
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