Omar6741 said
Steefen said
Twice, indeed, will you spread corruption on earth and will indeed become grossly overbearing!
In what way/s were the Jews of the first century spreading corruption on Earth?
In what way/s were the Jews of the first century becoming grossly overbearing?
Not sure, you’ll have to ask Bart.
Still, here is the well known ancient Christian answer.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Ask Bart about a statement in the Koran?
A Muslim or Muslim scholar would answer that question.
The second part of your answer is that Jewish corruption and Jews being overbearing is evidenced by Jesus’ life and death.
You say, that is the Christian answer.
I would say the more important answer comes from the Romans who definitely found them overbearing with violent messianism.
As it became clear the rebellion was getting out of control, Cestius Gallus, the legate of Syria, brought in the Syrian army, based on Legion XII Fulminata and reinforced by auxiliary troops, to restore order and quell the revolt. Despite initial advances and conquest of Jaffa, the Syrian Legion was ambushed and defeated by Jewish rebels at the Battle of Beth Horon with 6,000 Romans massacred and the Legion’s aquila lost – a result that shocked the Roman leadership.
Again, a Muslim or a Muslim scholar, not Ancient Rome, needs to explain the verses in the Koran.
Steefen said
Ask Bart about a statement in the Koran?
A Muslim or Muslim scholar would answer that question.The second part of your answer is that Jewish corruption and Jews being overbearing is evidenced by Jesus’ life and death.
You say, that is the Christian answer.I would say the more important answer comes from the Romans who definitely found them overbearing with violent messianism.
As it became clear the rebellion was getting out of control, Cestius Gallus, the legate of Syria, brought in the Syrian army, based on Legion XII Fulminata and reinforced by auxiliary troops, to restore order and quell the revolt. Despite initial advances and conquest of Jaffa, the Syrian Legion was ambushed and defeated by Jewish rebels at the Battle of Beth Horon with 6,000 Romans massacred and the Legion’s aquila lost – a result that shocked the Roman leadership.
Again, a Muslim or a Muslim scholar, not Ancient Rome, needs to explain the verses in the Koran.
Thanks for that quote about Roman history — can you tell me where you got it? For my interest.
A Muslim scholar may be able to explain the linguistic meaning of a verse in the Quran, or its context, or its legal implications for Muslims. He or she is not especially qualified to point out in more detail the specific historical reality to which any given verse alludes, unless the Quran itself gives that detail.
The faith of Islam entails that the verse *does* accurately describe a historical reality, whether Muslims know anything about it in detail or not — and the examples of the crucifixion of Jesus, and the beheading of John the Baptist, along with your own quotation — confirm that in this case. Though for further historical details, we have to consult history itself, or rather those experts who study it, such as Professor Ehrman.
Omar6741
Thanks for that quote about Roman history — can you tell me where you got it? For my interest.
A Muslim scholar may be able to explain the linguistic meaning of a verse in the Quran, or its context, or its legal implications for Muslims. He or she is not especially qualified to point out in more detail the specific historical reality to which any given verse alludes, unless the Quran itself gives that detail.
The faith of Islam entails that the verse *does* accurately describe a historical reality, whether Muslims know anything about it in detail or not — and the examples of the crucifixion of Jesus, and the beheading of John the Baptist, along with your own quotation — confirm that in this case. Though for further historical details, we have to consult history itself, or rather those experts who study it, such as Professor Ehrman.
Stephenoabc
Your request for quote about Roman history, just google Battle of Beth Horon. You could also google Jewish Revolt. You can also consult any good book about the Jewish Revolt.
It is quite odd for you to imply there is no Muslim scholar or Islamic book that explain the verses. In Christian Studies, we have many commentaries to go in depth on verses.
Dr. Ehrman does not present himself as a Koranic scholar.
Steefen said
Omar6741Thanks for that quote about Roman history — can you tell me where you got it? For my interest.
A Muslim scholar may be able to explain the linguistic meaning of a verse in the Quran, or its context, or its legal implications for Muslims. He or she is not especially qualified to point out in more detail the specific historical reality to which any given verse alludes, unless the Quran itself gives that detail.
The faith of Islam entails that the verse *does* accurately describe a historical reality, whether Muslims know anything about it in detail or not — and the examples of the crucifixion of Jesus, and the beheading of John the Baptist, along with your own quotation — confirm that in this case. Though for further historical details, we have to consult history itself, or rather those experts who study it, such as Professor Ehrman.
Stephenoabc
Your request for quote about Roman history, just google Battle of Beth Horon. You could also google Jewish Revolt. You can also consult any good book about the Jewish Revolt.
It is quite odd for you to imply there is no Muslim scholar or Islamic book that explain the verses. In Christian Studies, we have many commentaries to go in depth on verses.
Dr. Ehrman does not present himself as a Koranic scholar.
If you want to know what Muslim scholars or Islamic books say about the verses, why do you not follow the advice you just gave me and use google? I ask you for information and you direct me to google: you do not want to tell me from where you copy-and-pasted that one simple passage, yet you demand I do your work for you and give you a private lesson on what Muslim scholars have said about the meaning of a Quranic verse. Please be aware you are coming across as patronizing and disrespectful towards me and my religion, when all I did was to answer some of your questions as best I could.
Dr. Ehrman does present himself as a scholar of ancient history. When I, as a Muslim, want to know the specific details of a certain event mentioned only in general terms by the Creator in His revealed book the Quran (as I believe, even if you do not), I consult the experts about it. That is the instruction we find in the Quran, after all: “Ask the people of knowledge (dhikr), if you do not know.”
If you want to challenge the Quran, try and give a clear proof that what the Quran says in the verse you quoted is wrong. You won’t be able to do it, (unless you fall into sophistry and fallacies.)
Omar
If you want to know what Muslim scholars or Islamic books say about the verses, why do you not follow the advice you just gave me and use google?
Steefen
You quoted the verse, explain it, from your library, purchased books or borrowed from libraries.
Omar
I ask you for information and you direct me to google.
Steefen
That’s right. The Battle of Horon is well documented. Any good encyclopedia’s entry on the Jewish Revolt would have to mention it.
Omar
You do not want to tell me from where you copy-and-pasted that one simple passage
Steefen
That’s right because if I were communicating formally, I could use a number of sources. It is recorded in the Works of Josephus. There is no error in the statement that the Romans lost the Battle of Horon. They won the First Jewish-Roman War (Jewish Revolt) but at the outset, the lost the Battle of Horon. If I were citing the Battle of Horon, I would use Josephus and probably other sources. I reserve the right to cite as if I were recommending. At the moment, a stellar source that would go into the Notes and Bibliography of the second edition of my book is not what I am about to do on a historical item the majority of serious scholars, if not all scholars do not question.
Omar
yet you demand I do your work for you and give you a private lesson on what Muslim scholars have said about the meaning of a Quranic verse.
Steefen
You think I would delegate work to you? We were having an exchange: Christian and Muslim, that’s it.
Omar
Please be aware you are coming across as patronizing and disrespectful towards me and my religion, when all I did was to answer some of your questions as best I could.
Steefen
You cannot engage in research and investigation? If so, I’d be happy not to communicate with you. I’m here to learn, get constructive criticism for my beliefs and ideas. I take a scientific approach to religion, not a religious approach. Religion must be accurate, not something to be conserved even if it leads people astray or aground.
Omar
Dr. Ehrman does present himself as a scholar of ancient history.
Steefen
You are generalizing from Koranic scholar to Ancient History scholar, not good.
Either you are objective or you are a conservative believer.
If you think a discussion is an exchange of personal conclusions, with nothing to learn, we disagree.
In addition to the account of the Battle of Horon in the Works of Josephus, Roman sources also attest the Battle of Horon was won by the rebels.
The Christian Bible has the Strong Concordance. One of the versions of the Bible I have is:
NIV, Archaeological Study Bible, Hardcover: An Illustrated Walk Through Biblical History and Culture
As for The Koran, I’m finding
The Holy Quran
Arabic Text with English Translation, Commentary and comprehensive Introduction
by Maulana Muhammad Ali
Year 2002 Edition
Retypeset, redesigned with expanded Index
** you do not have permission to see this link **
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Someone says:
My favorite commentary is al-Wahidi’s Asbab al-Nuzul. It was written in 1075 CE and strives to offer an accurate context to each verse of the Quran. It is distributed by Egypt’s Al-Azhar school and can be viewed online here: ** you do not have permission to see this link ** The book is really a collection of earlier commentaries on verses from the first century after the Prophet died, with the bulk dating from the early to mid 700’s. When asked why he didn’t write his own commentary of the Quran, the 11th century scholar al-Ghazali said: “What our teacher al-Wahidi wrote suffices.”
Later commentaries such as ibn Kathir’s Tafsir (1373 CE) and Tafsīr al-Jalālayn (1505 CE) convert several of the verses from providing specific guidance for specific situations to generic guidance for all time. In their effort to provide universal guidance, I feel that these later authors deprive their readers of the nuanced reactions of Allah to specific situations.
For example, al-Wahidi quotes al-Dahhak and al-Suddi from around 740 CE to explain that 33:59-62 temporarily ordered hijab for women to respond to a specific incident in Medina, while ibn Kathir glosses over the incident in less than a sentence and focuses on the details of what the covering consisted of, implying that the ruling was permanent.
= = =
Another person says:
The most authorotative exegesis of the Qur’an is Tafsir ibn Kathir. You get the pdf here: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
= = =
I’m also finding this: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
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Next is to read the above leads carefully, then proceed to amazon.com
And we made [this] known to the children of Israel through revelation: Twice, indeed, will you spread corruption on earth and will indeed become grossly overbearing!
Surah 7: 4
OR Is Surah 7: 4 this:
And how many a town that We destroyed, so Our punishment came to it by night or while they slept at midday.
About Surah 7: 4 from: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
During the course of the address to the Jews, the consequences of their hypocritical conduct towards Prophethood have also been pointed out clearly, for they professed to believe in Prophet Moses but in practice opposed his teachings, disobeyed him and worshiped falsehood and consequently were afflicted with ignominy and disgrace.
The Islamic Prophet, Jesus, did this by Communion of body and blood. Jesus spread corruption by opposing the teachings of Moses: abstain from blood.
The Koran / Penguin Classics / Translated by N. J. Dawood
Surah 17: The Night Journey, page 233
17:4
In the Scriptures, We solemnly declared to the Israelites: ‘Twice you shall commit evil in the land. You shall become great transgressors.’
17:5
And when the prophecy of your first transgression came to be fulfilled, We sent against you a formidable army [note/commentary: The Asyrians] which ravaged your land and carried out the punishment with which you had been threatened.
17:7
And when the prophecy of your second transgression came to be fulfilled, We sent another army [note/commentary: The Romans] to afflict you and to enter the Temple as the former entered it before, utterly destroying all that they laid their hands on.
The Meaning of the Glorious Koran / A Mentor Book from New American Library (Times Mirror)
An Explanatory Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall
Surah 17: The Children of Israel / Revealed at Mecca
17:4-5
And We decreed for the Chilldren of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.
So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.
17:7
…So when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting.
~ ~ ~
On many occasions, The Koran claims Israelites killed prophets and Messengers. They also did not sufficiently trust prophets and Messengers. In the post above, there is the claim that Moses was not trusted sufficiently.
Israel fell short of worshiping Allah/God and the Assyrians conquered them.
As for the Romans being brought in to punish the Israelites for killing the prophets, this could be related to The Gospel of Luke, Chapter 11:
50As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, all of it will be charged to this generation.
The Romans did not destroy The Temple for crucifying Jesus. The Koran claims the Jews did not kill Jesus but they boasted that they did kill Jesus. This is evidenced by the Bavli [The Babylonian Talmud]. Just read the book Jesus in the Talmud by Peter Schafer and you will find the boasting there.
The Romans destroyed the Temple, it seems because of what we find in Luke 11: 50-51. There also has been a claim that the death of the Holy James, brother of Jesus brought God’s wrath by way of the Romans.
According to the Koran, the Romans would not have destroyed the Temple because of the death of Jesus because of this verse:
Surah 4: Women
4:157
They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared: ‘We have put to death the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah.’ They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did [Note/commentary: or, literally, he was made to resemble another for them.]
158
…What they knew about it was sheer conjecture; they were not sure that they had slain him. Allah lifted him up to His presence…
159
Because of their iniquity, We forbade the Jews good things which were formerly allowed them…
~ ~ ~
To perform the sacrilege of killing Zechariah at the Temple, the Temple was torn down. Possibly, add the killing of James, the brother of Jesus for the Temple being torn down, if their were only religious/theological reasons and not the political reason of the Jewish Revolt against the Romans.
480 a marker for the Fall of the Western Roman Empire
632 Death of Muhammad and end of his writing The Koran
152 years between the above two
The Koran says Jesus was not crucified; therefore, Easter becomes difficult.
Was this news?
Was it a tradition?
How did Christians react?
Greg Matthews said
This is like the topic that won’t die.
You know I’m not sure I really want to know but I still haven’t figured out what Steefen’s topic actually is!
Something about the New Testament accounts of Jesus being a Roman conspiracy? Is that even close?
Steefen said
480 a marker for the Fall of the Western Roman Empire632 Death of Muhammad and end of his writing The Koran
152 years between the above two
The Koran says Jesus was not crucified; therefore, Easter becomes difficult.
Was this news?
Was it a tradition?
How did Christians react?
Wait…Mohammad WROTE the Koran? Hmmmm…
Seems clear the writer(s) of the Koran were influenced to some degree by Christian Docetism which had been declared a heresy by that point.
Steefen said
480 a marker for the Fall of the Western Roman Empire632 Death of Muhammad and end of his writing The Koran
152 years between the above two
The Koran says Jesus was not crucified; therefore, Easter becomes difficult.
Was this news?
Was it a tradition?
How did Christians react?Wait…Mohammad WROTE the Koran? Hmmmm…
Seems clear the writer(s) of the Koran were influenced to some degree by Christian Docetism which had been declared a heresy by that point.
I’m unclear on how the writing stopped when he died. I’d like more clarification on that. With cow bell.
Greg Matthews said
I’m unclear on how the writing stopped when he died. I’d like more clarification on that. With cow bell.
The Quran consists of revelations received by the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him peace, in a state of inspiration, over a period of 23 years. These revelations were proclaimed to be, and also understood by Muslims to be, the very words of God Himself, and hence not authored by any human.
The revelations were written down by scribes during the Prophetic mission, as well as being memorized and regularly recited by the community at large; then, when that mission ceased, the revelation of the Quran ceased — there being no new prophets after the Quran — and so the writing down of the Quran necessarily ceased as well.
Greg Matthews said
I’m unclear on how the writing stopped when he died. I’d like more clarification on that. With cow bell.
The Quran consists of revelations received by the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him peace, in a state of inspiration, over a period of 23 years. These revelations were proclaimed to be, and also understood by Muslims to be, the very words of God Himself, and hence not authored by any human.
The revelations were written down by scribes during the Prophetic mission, as well as being memorized and regularly recited by the community at large; then, when that mission ceased, the revelation of the Quran ceased — there being no new prophets after the Quran — and so the writing down of the Quran necessarily ceased as well.
Steefen said
OmarIf you want to know what Muslim scholars or Islamic books say about the verses, why do you not follow the advice you just gave me and use google?
Steefen
You quoted the verse, explain it, from your library, purchased books or borrowed from libraries.
Omar
I ask you for information and you direct me to google.
Steefen
That’s right. The Battle of Horon is well documented. Any good encyclopedia’s entry on the Jewish Revolt would have to mention it.
Omar
You do not want to tell me from where you copy-and-pasted that one simple passage
Steefen
That’s right because if I were communicating formally, I could use a number of sources. It is recorded in the Works of Josephus. There is no error in the statement that the Romans lost the Battle of Horon. They won the First Jewish-Roman War (Jewish Revolt) but at the outset, the lost the Battle of Horon. If I were citing the Battle of Horon, I would use Josephus and probably other sources. I reserve the right to cite as if I were recommending. At the moment, a stellar source that would go into the Notes and Bibliography of the second edition of my book is not what I am about to do on a historical item the majority of serious scholars, if not all scholars do not question.
Omar
yet you demand I do your work for you and give you a private lesson on what Muslim scholars have said about the meaning of a Quranic verse.
Steefen
You think I would delegate work to you? We were having an exchange: Christian and Muslim, that’s it.
Omar
Please be aware you are coming across as patronizing and disrespectful towards me and my religion, when all I did was to answer some of your questions as best I could.
Steefen
You cannot engage in research and investigation? If so, I’d be happy not to communicate with you. I’m here to learn, get constructive criticism for my beliefs and ideas. I take a scientific approach to religion, not a religious approach. Religion must be accurate, not something to be conserved even if it leads people astray or aground.
Omar
Dr. Ehrman does present himself as a scholar of ancient history.
Steefen
You are generalizing from Koranic scholar to Ancient History scholar, not good.
Either you are objective or you are a conservative believer.
If you think a discussion is an exchange of personal conclusions, with nothing to learn, we disagree.
I’ve told you what I know about the verse in question, in response to your initial inquiries about it. I’m not at all sure that my effort was appreciated; if not, so be it.
Beyond that, I have other interests that occupy my limited time, and any “research and investigation” I do will be directed to those.
Omar6741 said
The Quran consists of revelations received by the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him peace, in a state of inspiration, over a period of 23 years. These revelations were proclaimed to be, and also understood by Muslims to be, the very words of God Himself, and hence not authored by any human.
The revelations were written down by scribes during the Prophetic mission, as well as being memorized and regularly recited by the community at large; then, when that mission ceased, the revelation of the Quran ceased — there being no new prophets after the Quran — and so the writing down of the Quran necessarily ceased as well.
You know that was sarcasm, right?
Greg Matthews said
Steefen said Muhammed stopped writing when he died. When someone is dead they can’t write anything. I said I didn’t understand and wanted clarification of that.
What you actually asked about was clarification concerning why “the writing” stopped, which suggested to me that you thought someone else might be in a position to continue the writing. Hence my explanation of the belief in the finality of prophethood.
Is it me, or does the recent discussion on this thread really resemble a video of a train crash in slow motion? If so, I can’t escape my share of the blame.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert