It seems to me that Jesus’ apocalyptic message of an imminent cleansing of the earth that would sweep away the unrighteous (that include the Romans too) was very politically charged. The Romans probably didn’t care much about the technicalities of Jesus’ theology but would have understood enough to know that guys like him preaching a coming “kingdom of God” usually spelled trouble. So the end of the day, even if Jesus’ did not preach armed insurrection, his clash with the Roman authorities seems inevitable.
I’m not saying that he was predicting his impending death, but he must have known he was taking a rather dangerous path. Even if he considered himself just another prophet and not the “King of the Jews” or the Messiah he was fully aware of what happened to John the Baptist (whom he knew personally). It is not far-fetched to imagine that Jesus at least considered the possibility that one day he might face a similar fate.
Pilate was well-known for his cruelty and his willingness to slaughter any Jewish rabble-rouser (he had no compunction about setting his troops on troublesome crowds of unarmed civilians and had done so several times).
Earlier we have Simon of Peraea (c 4 BC) and Athronges (c. 4-2 BC) who both led separate uprisings against the Herodians and the Romans – both attempts came to a swift and brutal end. So the threat of Roman retribution was clearly in the air – it is quite sure that Jesus at least heard about these incidents.
Again, I’m not suggesting that he prophesied his death. But did he know how dangerous his mission was? Was he – in some sense – expecting to die?
the_agnostic_wanderer said
It seems to me that Jesus’ apocalyptic message of an imminent cleansing of the earth that would sweep away the unrighteous (that include the Romans too) was very politically charged. The Romans probably didn’t care much about the technicalities of Jesus’ theology but would have understood enough to know that guys like him preaching a coming “kingdom of God” usually spelled trouble. So the end of the day, even if Jesus’ did not preach armed insurrection, his clash with the Roman authorities seems inevitable.
I’m not saying that he was predicting his impending death, but he must have known he was taking a rather dangerous path. Even if he considered himself just another prophet and not the “King of the Jews” or the Messiah he was fully aware of what happened to John the Baptist (whom he knew personally). It is not far-fetched to imagine that Jesus at least considered the possibility that one day he might face a similar fate.
Pilate was well-known for his cruelty and his willingness to slaughter any Jewish rabble-rouser (he had no compunction about setting his troops on troublesome crowds of unarmed civilians and had done so several times).
Earlier we have Simon of Peraea (c 4 BC) and Athronges (c. 4-2 BC) who both led separate uprisings against the Herodians and the Romans – both attempts came to a swift and brutal end. So the threat of Roman retribution was clearly in the air – it is quite sure that Jesus at least heard about these incidents.Again, I’m not suggesting that he prophesied his death. But did he know how dangerous his mission was? Was he – in some sense – expecting to die?
No, the mission of the Biblical Jesus was not suicidal.
1 – He thought God was on his side.
2 – You brought up an example of rebels against Roman taxation. Jesus avoided rebelling against taxation.
3 – John the Baptist was not killed by Romans.
4 – John the Baptist was not killed by the Temple Establishment.
5 – Jesus, during his ministry, did not make a protest against Pilate.
The mission of the Biblical Jesus was not suicidal vis-à-vis Pilate/Rome.
Who were the antagonists against the Biblical Jesus, protagonist?
Who had these antagonists kill or have killed in the past and for what reason?
Jesus was fairly certain that the end was nye and that God himself would intervene and bring about the Heavenly Kingdom within his lifetime. My bet is that the books of Mark & Mathew are the most accurate regarding his death statement, he was in genuine shock there had been no divine intervention.
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?** you do not have permission to see this link **
Robert said
Sure, I think Jesus knew very well that he was treading upon dangerous ground. But, if he he expected God, perhaps through an angelic Son of Man, to intervene and bring about the Kingdom of God swiftly, then he would be fighting on the side of the angels (literally) and maybe did not expect to die in the process. Yet did this faith falter on the cross or already the evening before–that too seems quite plausible.Welcome to the forum, by the way.
On the cross Jesus cried “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Jesus was quoting from Psalm 22, first verse. This Psalm, and Psalm 69 are David’s depiction of the suffering Redeemer. The same as Isaiah 53 – the innocent man, despised, rejected, healing the sick, recovering the blind, raising the dead, imprisoned, judged, condemned to a tortuous death – but then raised again and satisfied his sacrifice avails much, and his story is preached to generations not yet born.
So yes, Jesus understood full well what was expected of him. He said this often during his ministry.
LukaPNW said
Jesus was fairly certain that the end was nye and that God himself would intervene and bring about the Heavenly Kingdom within his lifetime. My bet is that the books of Mark & Mathew are the most accurate regarding his death statement, he was in genuine shock there had been no divine intervention.My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?** you do not have permission to see this link **
Jesus was quoting from David’s Psalm 22. He DID NOT EXPECT GOD WOULD INTERVENE. HE DIED FOR GENERATIONS NOT EVEN BORN YET. Here’s a summary of the Psalm Jesus quoted from – it’s a picture of Jesus on the cross, written a thousand years before He was born.
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
…“He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”….
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
…
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
…I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
My mouth[** you do not have permission to see this link **] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
…they pierce my hands and my feet.
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.…
I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
You who fear the Lord, praise him!
…All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
…Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!
Jesus was not suicidal and his death wasn’t a suicide. He acted bravely according to the truth, without deliberation, compromises or calculations, instead of being reasonable and letting the truth wait for a possible safer time. In fact he said `I am the Truth.’ In contrast, in America, during a police emergency, when rescue was urgently needed, people decided to hold meetings to deliberate, reach compromises, and write stunningly beautiful papers, forgetting their original purpose, Freedom, and that there even existed an emergency.
The death of the Babtist, Jesus’ friend, cousin, and colleague, must have been a brutal trauma for Jesus, and probably set him on a more deliberate and active course. It was a wakeup call to the type of government and society rules that were a burdon in the ancient world. Jesus acted to rescue the world from tyranny, and educate people. Jesus was enlightened, filled with light, he was a Buddha, meaning he was free of the flow-of-thought-dreaming. Buddha means awakened from the constant daydream stream of thoughts that imprisons our being. He sees the world as it is not as he thinks.
There is no mind, only thinking, like walking, thinking is a thing we do. Thoughts are connected to each other, and need these connections to exist. Trying to stop the thoughts would just be additional thinking. But merely watching the thought without judgement or knowledge stops the thinking. The absence of thinking is meditation. And what is uncovered is the being, which is bliss and without content.
Poohbear wrote
On the cross Jesus cried “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Jesus was quoting from Psalm 22, first verse.
No, the author of the gospel of Mark put the first verse of Psalm 22 on the lips of Jesus thereby encouraging his audience to interpret Jesus’ death through that lens. This was not reportage but an act of literature. How is it possible after two thousand years for the writer of Mark to still be more sophisticated than much of his modern audience? I doff my cap to him.
Shawnb wrote
Jesus was enlightened…
Someone who came along now and taught what Jesus taught, that God would soon end the world and make Jesus king over all, would not be considered enlightened but the worst kind of religious fanatic. Such people are laughed at.
Buddha means awakened from the constant daydream stream of thoughts that imprisons our being.
The Buddha seeks to frees us from all the qualities that make us human. To need, to want, to aspire, to build, to create, to explore, to reason.
The absence of thinking is meditation.
The absence of thinking is death. That will come soon enough for all, without any effort whatsoever. In the meantime…
Stephen said
Poohbear wroteOn the cross Jesus cried “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Jesus was quoting from Psalm 22, first verse.
No, the author of the gospel of Mark put the first verse of Psalm 22 on the lips of Jesus thereby encouraging his audience to interpret Jesus’ death through that lens. This was not reportage but an act of literature. How is it possible after two thousand years for the writer of Mark to still be more sophisticated than much of his modern audience? I doff my cap to him.
Shawnb wrote
Jesus was enlightened…
Someone who came along now and taught what Jesus taught, that God would soon end the world and make Jesus king over all, would not be considered enlightened but the worst kind of religious fanatic. Such people are laughed at.
Buddha means awakened from the constant daydream stream of thoughts that imprisons our being.
The Buddha seeks to frees us from all the qualities that make us human. To need, to want, to aspire, to build, to create, to explore, to reason.
The absence of thinking is meditation.
The absence of thinking is death. That will come soon enough for all, without any effort whatsoever. In the meantime…
Mark, the secretary to Peter, could have written Peter’s Gospel without knowledge of Jesus, just by reading the entire Tanakh. Here we read of the One who will be believed upon of the Gentiles. and His coming will end the Temple and Israel, for a long long while.
A “sign” would be given through a special child born. To “us” a son is “given” – he will belong to the Jewish people but his glory would be to Gentiles. He will be the “mighty God” and “Counselor.” His “judgment” and “justice” was “forever.”
He would be a “tender shoot… in a dry ground.” A “great light” to Galilee of the Gentiles. God gave Him no attractiveness and no children of His own. He would be the healer to “the eyes of the blind” and “the ears of the deaf” and even to restore the dead to life.
Yet He would be “despised and rejected” and a “man of sorrows.” He would be betrayed, imprisoned and falsely judged. Like a lamb He would be “pierced” and “crushed.” Yet He will live again and be “satisfied” for “suffering of His soul” and “It will be told to a people not yet born that He has done this.”
Robert said
Poohbear said
Mark, the secretary to Peter, could have written Peter’s Gospel without knowledge of Jesus, just by reading the entire Tanakh. …
In fact, that is what the evangelists did do, ‘though I am less skeptical than you with respect to their actual knowledge of Jesus and his teachings.
I am not skeptical of the Gospels. I take them at face value. I am just saying you could build an entire Gospel just by reading about the Messianic Redeemer in the Old Testament.
I am just saying you could build an entire Gospel just by reading about the Messianic Redeemer in the Old Testament.
But then why does the author of the gospel of Mark have to go to the trouble of convincing his audience that the Messiah must be crucified rather than be the traditional triumphal leader of Israel? The Jews were expecting someone quite different than Jesus to fulfill the Messianic role. And that was precisely because they were following the template of the “Messianic Redeemer” found in the Hebrew Bible.
Jesus was rejected by the overwhelming majority of his fellow Jews because he DIDN’T fit the OT expectation of the Messiah. Paul admits as much in his letter to the Corinthians.
For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles…
Why is Jesus a stumbling block? Because he was crucified!
Stephen said
I am just saying you could build an entire Gospel just by reading about the Messianic Redeemer in the Old Testament.But then why does the author of the gospel of Mark have to go to the trouble of convincing his audience that the Messiah must be crucified rather than be the traditional triumphal leader of Israel? The Jews were expecting someone quite different than Jesus to fulfill the Messianic role. And that was precisely because they were following the template of the “Messianic Redeemer” found in the Hebrew Bible.
Jesus was rejected by the overwhelming majority of his fellow Jews because he DIDN’T fit the OT expectation of the Messiah. Paul admits as much in his letter to the Corinthians.
For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles…
Why is Jesus a stumbling block? Because he was crucified!
Quote – “And that was precisely because they were following the template of the “Messianic Redeemer” found in the Hebrew Bible. “
That sentence has been confused. The Jews were following the temple of the Messianic KING, not the Redeemer. The Redeemer occupies about ten percent of Messianic prophecies, the ninety percent is of the Coming King.
Some Jews say it’s rather lame for Christians to say this Redeemer will rise again and come back as a king, but Zechariah 9 and 12, for instance, show the lowly Redeemer and reigning King as the same man.
Stephen said
That sentence has been confused.Well something is confused. Given the almost wholesale rejection of Jesus by his fellow Jews, who presumably knew best what they expected, give some thought to the possibility that it wasn’t them.
Christianity first Century was largely a Jewish phenomenon. They saw Jesus as the Redeemer. Most Jews did not want a Redeemer, they wanted a king. So whole tracts of scripture were simply ignored, or explained away.
But this scripture stated the Messiah would be rejected, and the Jewish people would lose their temple, city, nation and freedom. And this Messiah would be believed upon of the Gentiles (for a while.) This is exactly what happened, and is still happening.
Stephen said
That sentence has been confused.Well something is confused. Given the almost wholesale rejection of Jesus by his fellow Jews, who presumably knew best what they expected, give some thought to the possibility that it wasn’t them.
About 15,000 were with Jesus in one episode. The man found it difficult to go anywhere without incessant crowds. Perhaps the first gathering of all Christians in Acts had about 5,000 people. If you recall, Jesus was arrested and tried at NIGHT in the High Priest’s house to avoid the people. Fact is, Israel was divided about Jesus.
The Old Testament states two interesting things about the Messianic Redeemer – he would be rejected, and God would reject Israel.
Robert said
Poohbear said
… Most Jews did not want a Redeemer, they wanted a king. So whole tracts of scripture were simply ignored, or explained away.Christians blaming Jews, how’s that working for you?
Say what? Are you referring to antisemitism? Heard someone say yesterday that some people persecute Jews because they killed the Christ. I doubt a single arsonist, basher, vandal or Jew killer would feel deeply for the suffering Messiah. Jews were persecuted and hated long before Jesus. The Egyptians found Jews “abominable” and the Canaanites hated Jews as well.
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