Dr Ehrman thinks Jesus preached a magical world of
a) no sickness
b) no natural disasters
b) physical immortalty
see:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
where does he get that idea from?
additionally because in Dr Ehrman’s mind the new kingdom is a magical world, he also thinks this world must be initiated by the appearance of a magical ‘son of man’ being standing on a cloud (rather than someone like Jesus of Nazareth)
Meant: Where did ‘Dr Ehrman’ get the confused idea that the kingdom of God is magical world ??
but anyway
Stephen said
He [Jesus] got his best stuff from the Jewish prophets …
which Jewish prophet implies
i said
a) no sicknessb) no natural disasters
b) physical immortalty
Here is my skepticism
[If] The gospels, . . , are . . very poor, tertiary evidence for how Jesus . . might have understood his [own] teaching and the significance of his death.
How much less evidence are the writings of the Enoch, Daniel, Maccabee’s author, etc of what Jesus may or may not have understood regarding the ultimate elimination of diseases, termination of all natural disasters, resuscitation of corpses, etc.
It appears to me that Dr Ehrman bases most of his speculation of Jesus’ own view of his mission on
the philosophical [conjecture that the] problem of evil and thus other forms of evil such as sickness and natural disasters will also presumably not exist in God’s Kingdom.
.
But I would like to see him put forth evidence from at least the gospels that Jesus for such a ‘magical’ view of the Kingdom of God
But even if looking to prior scripture that Jesus may have read to speculate on his views; why the focus of the very few examples that ‘could’ (but don’t necessarily) reference magical phenomena. and skip over other more mundane but certainly more credible descriptions of the Kingdom
like of a
‘new covenant’ jeremiah 31:31 – God’s law in peoples’ minds and hearts and no need for teachers, ??
or like of a
“new heaven and new earth” Is 65:17 – no child dies in first weeks of life, and most men/women live to 100 ??
Neither of these imply ‘magic’ in the slightest, in my opinion.
true, I find it curious that Dr Ehrman cant believe in a Parental God given the world of a)diseases b)natural disasters and c)human mortality, and also believes Jesus preached the elimination of these 3 evils; but you are right, there may be no correlation.
** you do not have permission to see this link ** makes a convincing case that the Kingdom of God is imminent and an unconvincing case that the ‘Son of Man’ is a magical being, but it doesn’t address whether the Kingdom of God is free of physical death, disease, disaster. It does present with little or no backing evidence that previously dead will be ‘vindicated’ (presumably by being resuscitated) .
Dr Ehrman actually points out in this book that Jesus was ambivalent toward physical death (dead burying dead, etc) and ambivalent toward physical impairment (gouging out eyes to avoid sin), which again I find curious and incongruous if Jesus really was expecting a world of uncorrupted immortal perfect physical human specimens.
Does John Meier’s work investigate whether Jesus saw the Kingdom of God as free of death and disaster? If so and you are able to I would appreciate if you could point out which volume. thanks
Jesus Preached
the Kingdom of God But Had
No Succession Plan.
One Was Needed.
The Son of God, Octavian, Caesar Augustus had a succession plan and had to redraft his succession plan due to deaths of people in the original plan.
Jesus spoke of Son of Man in the first person. Then he spoke of Son of Man in the third person.
Jesus as the first manifestation of the Son of Man and the second Son of Man were both to be mortal or was the earthly Kingdom of God supposed to be a Camelot of immortality?
If immortality was not to be brought to Earth, then Jesus has no succession planning as did Son of the Divine and Pontifex Maximus, Divus Augustus.
Jesus sought to usher in a new kingdom and has no plans for the sons and grandsons of Herod the Great, nor did he lead a delegation to Rome. Neither did God send Jesus to Rome since Rome was the empire and Judea was the province.
Question: While members of the earthly Kingdom of God would pay taxes to Rome, this kingdom would be a light to Rome, but given the blind getting sight and all the other characteristics healings and resurrections, was it supposed to be a place with no death for the third person Son of Man and members of his kingdom?
yes Steefan that is the question
I want to start with the assumption that Jesus believed the Kingdom of God was coming very very very soon.
does that imply some kind of physical immortality (of Jesus?) (of his disciples?) (of some Son of Man, who isn’t Jesus?)
Ok so Augustus realized he was mortal and so set up a succession plan. this is the ordinary view
BELIVEING IN HUMAN IMMORTALITY IS EXTREMELY RADICAL whether Roman world, or Jewish world, or any other world as far as I know.
In my opinion, To hold the view that Jesus (or any other person for that matter) believed in human immortality, you should provide very very clear and convincing evidence, otherwise it is safest to assume everyone agrees to the following presumption “All men are created mortal”
Does the bible (Jesus’ words or others) contradict this ?
is preston’s argument above convincing
prestonp said
There will be a new heaven and a new earth. All tears will be wiped dry never to return.
certainly i accept that there are almost universal tears accompanying a loved one’s death
does all tears being wiped away mean the end of human mortality?
[waiting on first volume of Meier’s book to see if it will shed some clarity]
Bart:
The earliest followers of Jesus, after his death, were firmly convinced that it was faith in him – in particular, his death and resurrection– that could make a person right with God. This was the belief not only of the apostle Paul, whose writings we will consider in the next chapter, but of all the early Christians we know about, including, of course, the authors of the Gospels.
Steefen:
The first person Jesus saved was one of the bandits crucified with him. What that bandit/thief still believed was Jesus’ Son of Man – Kingdom of God mission, that Jesus was the Lord of that Kingdom that was earthly; the only person Jesus told it was not of this Earth was Pilate) which is not what Jn 3:16 and Paul believed. Mt, Mk, and Lk do not have an equivalent to Jn 3:16; so the authors of the Gospels did not agree with Paul and John.
Now, this relates to one of my other questions: Was the third person Son of Man immortal while Jesus in the first-person referring to himself as Son of Man was mortal?
Given the healings and miracles, was the kingdom of God on earth a place of immortality such that Jesus did not have to tell his disciples of his succession plans?
Jesus did not even know he was going to be plucked away into mortality opening the door to a third-person (another) Son of Man. Once upon the cross, about to die, Jesus gives us another place, different from the Kingdom of God, he gives us a place called Paradise. To the “thief,” because in the hour of death you still believed in the Kingdom of God Son of Man movement, you will be with me in Paradise, the place mortal citizens of the Kingdom of God go after life.
So, no, the magical world did not include immortality. If Jesus left the possibility open, he learned better in the hour of his mortality and told us of a different place, Paradise.
Steefen said
Bart:
The earliest followers of Jesus, after his death, were firmly convinced that it was faith in him – in particular, his death and resurrection– that could make a person right with God. This was the belief not only of the apostle Paul, whose writings we will consider in the next chapter, but of all the early Christians we know about, including, of course, the authors of the Gospels.
Steefen:
The first person Jesus saved was one of the bandits crucified with him. What that bandit/thief still believed was Jesus’ Son of Man – Kingdom of God mission, that Jesus was the Lord of that Kingdom that was earthly; the only person Jesus told it was not of this Earth was Pilate) which is not what Jn 3:16 and Paul believed. Mt, Mk, and Lk do not have an equivalent to Jn 3:16; so the authors of the Gospels did not agree with Paul and John.
Now, this relates to one of my other questions: Was the third person Son of Man immortal while Jesus in the first-person referring to himself as Son of Man was mortal?
Given the healings and miracles, was the kingdom of God on earth a place of immortality such that Jesus did not have to tell his disciples of his succession plans?
Jesus did not even know he was going to be plucked away into mortality opening the door to a third-person (another) Son of Man. Once upon the cross, about to die, Jesus gives us another place, different from the Kingdom of God, he gives us a place called Paradise. To the “thief,” because in the hour of death you still believed in the Kingdom of God Son of Man movement, you will be with me in Paradise, the place mortal citizens of the Kingdom of God go after life.So, no, the magical world did not include immortality. If Jesus left the possibility open, he learned better in the hour of his mortality and told us of a different place, Paradise.
Bart answered:
Comment Link: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Author: Bart
Comment:
I think Jesus imagined it as an eternal kingdom. No more death.
Just to clarify reiterate
original question was whether Jesus taught physical immortality on earth
It is a different question (of course also very interesting) whether he taught some immortality in some other sense like in a spiritual dimension – heaven as is normally think.
1. is not what Jn 3:16 . . believed.
2. Was the third person Son of Man immortal while Jesus in the first-person referring to himself as Son of Man was mortal?
3. another place, different from the Kingdom of God, he gives us a place called Paradise.
1. Most people i know dont think Jn 3:16 means physical immortality. For instance Billy Graham often used this scripture but never to my knowledge equated it to physical immortality on earth, so even if historical Jesus said those words, i dont think this answers original question
2. regarding 1st/3rd person son of man. you need to first posit that 3rd person references used by Jesus
a) meant someone other than himself, and
b) meant some super human
than you may ask if that person is physically immortal
Bart does take accept a) and b) but does not think this 3rd person son of man would remain eternally (physically) on earth,
I find his argument unconvincing and actually a little jumbled (but I am not a scholar) And to my understanding Bart’s regarding the ‘son of man’ is far from views by held by majority of scholars (if that matters).
3. That “Paradise” is different that “Kingdom of God” I have heard this idea, but haven’t thought exactly of what it entails
tompicard should have said
It is unclear to me whether Bart . . .thinks this 3rd person son of man would remain eternally (physically) on earth,
the “Son of Man” appears on a cloud, then sits on a throne, then judges the currently living. At some point (I assume later) Jesus and 12 sub-regents sit on thrones ruling the earth (this is what Jesus taught that led to his trial and death explained in Jesus Apocalyptic Prophet). maybe the son of man was to stick around as subject to king Jesus or else he would return to the cloud or whence ever he originated. I was assuming the latter.
Author: Bart Comment:
I think Jesus imagined it as an eternal kingdom. No more death.
yes that is the question the thread is hoping to clarify
I said/asked Dr Ehrman thinks Jesus preached a magical world of
. . .
b) physical immortaltywhere does he get that idea from?
Most sane people I know understand man is mortal
does Dr Ehrman explain why he believes Jesus held such a view ?
please link to any past blog posts of his if possible and let me know if you think his argument is convincing
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