…what does this comment have at all to do with whether Jesus believed the Kingdom of God was absent death illness and natural disaster ?
tompicard that is what’s known as “thread drift”.
gavriel asked
He [Jesus] probably thought he was a kind of Messiah, or else his followers would not have invented the idea after his unexpected execution. The question is rather what kind of Messiah he had in mind. It must have been more than just a herald of the coming kingdom, he also expected a kingly role in that kingdom. Did he think that the heralding consisted of preaching, exorcising and healing only ? Or did he take a more active role in promoting the Kingdom by inflammatory actions?
I suppose the truest answer is that I don’t know but there are tantalizing hints aren’t there? What’s up with the sword in the Garden of Gethsemane? And if the “incident” in the Temple is historical, how did Jesus and his disciples make it out of the Temple grounds without being arrested then and there? If the values and ethics (if not the actual words) of the Sermon on the Mount are foundational to Jesus how come the writer of our earliest gospel doesn’t know about it?
I don’t take mythicism seriously so I am forced to try to find a historical Jesus who reconciles the divergent strains we see in the tradition. But are they divergent? Maybe Jesus believed in love and mercy for the saved and damnation and destruction for everybody else.
But as to whether he was announcing the kingdom or initiating it, I don’t know.
I appreciate all feedback from all,
I now add a few thoughts, after reading 2 volumes of Meier’s book.
the thread began based on Dr Ehrman’s blog of Aug 8.
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** you do not have permission to see this link **
in this post Dr Ehrman presented the thesis that REPORTS OF Jesus miracles likely did not occur till after Easter (i.e after Jesus reported resurrection) (i.e. 2 not in Jesus lifetime )
What is Dr Ehrman’s argument for this? (which prompted this thread?)
Here how I understand it:
storytellers recounting the life of Jesus [proved] his teachings regarding the kingdom of God [showed] that his words were verified by his deeds. In the Kingdom of God there will be no natural disasters; Jesus controls nature even now. In the Kingdom there will be no more demons; Jesus casts out demons now. In the Kingdom there will be no more disease or bodily ailments or physical impairments; Jesus heals the sick now. In the Kingdom there will be no more death; Jesus raises the dead now.
1) Now the first thing I have learned is that a lot of critical scholars ( as recognized by Dr Ehrman) disagree with his conclusion.
Meier spend 470 pages looking at all miracles reports and concludes a number of exorcism, healings, nature miracles and raising dead were begun within Jesus’ lifetime. [note: 80% of Meier’s work is over my head, and I recognize that Dr Ehrman’s 1000 word blog post words shouldnt be compare to Meier’s > 400 pages]
2) Dr Ehrman’s argument is not based on textual criticism, (assuming I understand his argument in green above properly), as is Meier’s.
Still none of this directly addresses first/primary question of this thread
Was Kingdom of God Jesus preached magical ?
Specifically I think Dr Ehrman’s argument is invalid, because the premises are not valid
these premises
In the Kingdom of God there will be no natural disasters; . .. . . . In the Kingdom there will be no more disease . . . In the Kingdom there will be no more death;
But I am open to hearing\discussing\learning other opinions if someone can validate (give evidence for) these premises
tompicard said
<……>
Still none of this directly addresses first/primary question of this thread
Was Kingdom of God Jesus preached magical ?
It depends on how ancient people understood the term “magical”. I think the Jesus sect did not antecipate a magical world the way modern people conceive the word, but a world functioning according to “rules”. “Rules” is a scientific, modern concept, so may be they did not even think explicitly about a rule governed world. “Magic” is about miraculous suspension of or additions to rules. They simply assumed that the evil causes behind death, decay, illness and procreation would disappear. That would be a fundamental change in the structure of the world, but still a rule governed world. Obviously they also thought that such a world would have to be managed, hence the need for a “king” and “judges”. Probably they did not think that this managing included magical devices. On the other hand, these people were not systematic thinkers, holding academic degrees. Some of the early Christians may have held pretty weird conceptions of the kingdom – Papias comes to my mind.
Stephen said
…what does this comment have at all to do with whether Jesus believed the Kingdom of God was absent death illness and natural disaster ?tompicard that is what’s known as “thread drift”.
gavriel asked
He [Jesus] probably thought he was a kind of Messiah, or else his followers would not have invented the idea after his unexpected execution. The question is rather what kind of Messiah he had in mind. It must have been more than just a herald of the coming kingdom, he also expected a kingly role in that kingdom. Did he think that the heralding consisted of preaching, exorcising and healing only ? Or did he take a more active role in promoting the Kingdom by inflammatory actions?
I suppose the truest answer is that I don’t know but there are tantalizing hints aren’t there? What’s up with the sword in the Garden of Gethsemane? And if the “incident” in the Temple is historical, how did Jesus and his disciples make it out of the Temple grounds without being arrested then and there? If the values and ethics (if not the actual words) of the Sermon on the Mount are foundational to Jesus how come the writer of our earliest gospel doesn’t know about it?
I don’t take mythicism seriously so I am forced to try to find a historical Jesus who reconciles the divergent strains we see in the tradition. But are they divergent? Maybe Jesus believed in love and mercy for the saved and damnation and destruction for everybody else.
But as to whether he was announcing the kingdom or initiating it, I don’t know.
This is really interesting, but may be a bit off-topic, so very shortly:
I have to come to think that the temple cleansing is wholly legendary, as he would have been arrested on the spot. It is more likely a story-teller tradition that developed out of his preaching on the temple precincts, in which there was inflammatory elements against the temple priesthood, and in which he expressed negative views on trading and monetary exchange within the temple area. That would have been tolerated – for a while. But he was pushing the limits.
gavriel said
It depends on how ancient people understood the term “magical”.
gavriel for this thread I am thinking what we (not ancients) understand as MAGICAL KofG
specifically from Dr Ehrman statements
A world of no natural disasters; . .. . . . no more disease; . . . no more death
as opposed to, for instance,
A world of no murders . .. . . . no more theft nor exploitation . . . no more adultery, etc
And i want to know which is more likely the view of KofG held by Jesus.
or maybe all of the above, but regarding the top 3 no’s please cite words of Jesus’ preaching which lead you to conclude they were in his view, necessary components of the Kingdom of God
tompicard said
gavriel said
It depends on how ancient people understood the term “magical”.gavriel for this thread I am thinking what we (not ancients) understand as MAGICAL KofG
specifically from Dr Ehrman statements
A world of no natural disasters; . .. . . . no more disease; . . . no more death
as opposed to, for instance,
A world of no murders . .. . . . no more theft nor exploitation . . . no more adultery, etc
And i want to know which is more likely the view of KofG held by Jesus.
or maybe all of the above, but regarding the top 3 no’s please cite words of Jesus’ preaching which lead you to conclude they were in his view, necessary components of the Kingdom of God
I think we need an understanding of how “magic” was understood in antiquity. It was used by Jews in anti-christian polemics in which J. was understood to be a magician. The early Christians did not accept themselves as performers of magic, which was some kind of supernatural activity associated with malevolent daemons or similar.
Therefor it seems reasonable to think that the world of the Kingdom was thought to be a reversal of the sin committed by Adam and Eve, a sin that triggered aging, death, procreation and hard labour.
need an understanding of how “magic” was understood in antiquity. It was used by Jews in anti-christian polemics in which J. was understood to be a magician. The early Christians did not accept themselves as performers of magic, which was some kind of supernatural activity associated with malevolent daemons or similar..
yes I understand ’magic’ is often used as a kind of pejorative
and have been using that word in this thread to imply those who believe in ‘magic’ are somewhat confused. Of course many a Christians expect a ‘magical’ Jesus to return and save them but the time/place to discuss that is elsewhere.
Therefor it seems reasonable to think that the world of the Kingdom was thought to be a reversal of the sin committed by Adam and Eve, a sin that triggered aging, death, procreation and hard labour.
Yes I suspect that is the general argument that many people take for granted – but I am not sure it should be
And I would not say that thesis is not reasonable, of course it is reasonable.
And yet I can critique it rather easily (that ‘original’ sin led to death and natural disaster)
a) A&E were told they would die on day they ate the poisonous fruit. – this doesn’t imply they will live immortally if they don’t eat it
b) A&E were supposed to ‘die’ the DAY they sinned – rather than ‘dying physically’ 700 years later maybe they ‘died spiritually’ immediately – latter sounds more reasonable to me
c) regarding procreation ( not exactly something i listed above, but OK) E’s pain in childbirth was MULTIPLIED means childbirth probably would occur even if she hadn’t eaten the fruit
d) after A ate the fruit he was required to exert hard labor (in fact he had a job/profession tending God’s garden even before he sinned)
if we would care to we go down this road arguing one position vs. the other and possibly (but unlikely) determining which view is more reasonable
But the question wasn’t what you or I find reasonable rather Jesus.
If anyone can show/provide evidence Jesus held the view that human mortality (or natural disaster or disease) was a result of A&E’s mistake that i would like to hear about, nothing comes to my mind tho.
tompicard said
yes I understand ’magic’ is often used as a kind of pejorative
and have been using that word in this thread to imply those who believe in ‘magic’ are somewhat confused. Of course many a Christians expect a ‘magical’ Jesus to return and save them but the time/place to discuss that is elsewhere.
Therefor it seems reasonable to think that the world of the Kingdom was thought to be a reversal of the sin committed by Adam and Eve, a sin that triggered aging, death, procreation and hard labour.
Yes I suspect that is the general argument that many people take for granted – but I am not sure it should be
And I would not say that thesis is not reasonable, of course it is reasonable.
And yet I can critique it rather easily (that ‘original’ sin led to death and natural disaster)
a) A&E were told they would die on day they ate the poisonous fruit. – this doesn’t imply they will live immortally if they don’t eat it
b) A&E were supposed to ‘die’ the DAY they sinned – rather than ‘dying physically’ 700 years later maybe they ‘died spiritually’ immediately – latter sounds more reasonable to me
c) regarding procreation ( not exactly something i listed above, but OK) E’s pain in childbirth was MULTIPLIED means childbirth probably would occur even if she hadn’t eaten the fruit
d) after A ate the fruit he was required to exert hard labor (in fact he had a job/profession tending God’s garden even before he sinned)
if we would care to we go down this road arguing one position vs. the other and possibly (but unlikely) determining which view is more reasonable
But the question wasn’t what you or I find reasonable rather Jesus.
If anyone can show/provide evidence Jesus held the view that human mortality (or natural disaster or disease) was a result of A&E’s mistake that i would like to hear about, nothing comes to my mind tho.
The question is how adherents of apocalyptic Judaism thought about these matters. When it comes to the position of the early Christians, it is quite clear that they expected to live forever in a new an much more pleasant world, our world transformed, not an additional world. To live forever, there can be no death and illness. The idea of an eternally multiplying population in that world is disturbing, look at Mark 12:18-27. As time passed and the transformation never occurred, the idea of a two-world solution developed.
tompicard said
gavriel said
It depends on how ancient people understood the term “magical”.gavriel for this thread I am thinking what we (not ancients) understand as MAGICAL KofG
specifically from Dr Ehrman statements
A world of no natural disasters; . .. . . . no more disease; . . . no more death
as opposed to, for instance,
A world of no murders . .. . . . no more theft nor exploitation . . . no more adultery, etc
And i want to know which is more likely the view of KofG held by Jesus.
or maybe all of the above, but regarding the top 3 no’s please cite words of Jesus’ preaching which lead you to conclude they were in his view, necessary components of the Kingdom of God
Natural disasters, disease, death, murders, theft, exploitation, adultery…. All these things exist in our physical reality, but, when asked by Pilate, Jesus is quoted as having said, “My kingdom is not of this world.”
These words inconveniently challenge Bart’s view that Judas betrayed Jesus because Jesus was planning an earthly kingdom. In fact, it was the high priests who were agitating violence, as they demanded that anyone claiming to be king defeat Rome in battle. Jesus by contrast said render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Of course they killed him. 
Matt2239
Natural disasters, disease, death, murders, theft, exploitation, adultery…. All these things exist in our physical reality
We can be pretty sure Jesus saw the Kingdom of God on earth as a world of
no murder, no theft, no adultery – see Matt 5:21-28 and Matt 19:17-19
Are there any comparable verses at all anyone can reference to show Jesus believed the Kingdom of God is a world of
no diseases, no death, no natural disasters ? ? ? ? ?
these are my on thoughts Mk 12:18 .. fwtw
A) the whole passage is not completely intelligible, to me.
This passage DOES show Jesus believed in ‘The Resurrection” in some sense but in exactly what sense I cannot fathom. I cannot conclude from Yahweh speaking from bush to Moses that “I am the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob” that Jesus believes decaying corpses in ground are to be reanimated.
B) Jesus words here dont cohere to other parts of his teachings, particularly on divorce
Mark 10:9 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together let no man separate. Jesus adds NO qualifier that divorce MAY be allowed at some stage in the unfolding of the Kingdom of God .Is it OK for those married couple alive on earth at the time of the “resurrection” to then divorce or begin to live separately ?
C.a)the background of these verses is Jesus opponents attempting to pose a somewhat ridiculous hypothetical question for the express purpose of making Jesus look like a fool.
b)In no other of Jesus discourses do you find a clear explication of whether corpses are resuscitated at some stage in time, whether angels marry, or whether people living on earth at some point in time in the future must live singly.
Therefore whatever Jesus meant by these teachings these are NOT a core nor primary nor essential component of his ministry
D. Even if one can conclude with certainty from these verses that there are no marriages nor births in the KofG and there is a physical resurrection, You must still posit several additional non-trivial nor obvious inferences/suppositions before you are led to Dr Ehrman’s statement
Jesus’ teachings regarding the kingdom of God . . were . . In the Kingdom of God there will be no natural disasters. . .; , no more demons. . ., no more disease or bodily ailments or physical impairments. . .; no more death; . . .
Robert said
Matt2239 said
… In fact, it was the high priests who were agitating violence, as they demanded that anyone claiming to be king defeat Rome in battle. …
Why do you think that the high priest was supposedly agitating violence by demanding that anyone claiming to be king defeat Rome in battle?
“We have no King but Caesar.”
That’s a reference to an earthly king, one who commands armies. The high priests rejected Jesus as an alternative to Caesar, but Jesus, when put on the spot by Pilate, said his kingdom was not of this world. That’s why I think the way I think.
Matt2239 said
Natural disasters, disease, death, murders, theft, exploitation, adultery…. All these things exist in our physical reality, but, when asked by Pilate, Jesus is quoted as having said, “My kingdom is not of this world.”
These words inconveniently challenge Bart’s view that Judas betrayed Jesus because Jesus was planning an earthly kingdom. In fact, it was the high priests who were agitating violence, as they demanded that anyone claiming to be king defeat Rome in battle. Jesus by contrast said render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Of course they killed him.
There were no witnesses who could record what Jesus said when interrogated by Pilate, if interrogated at all. The “conversations” we have reported in the gospels are guesses made by the gospel writers many decades later. My guess is that Pilate simply accepted the claims by the Jewish authorities who handed him over, may be also had his identity confirmed, and then sent him off to scourging and execution right away. That was the style of Pilate, as reported by Philo and Josephus.
gavriel said
There were no witnesses who could record what Jesus said when interrogated by Pilate, if interrogated at all. The “conversations” we have reported in the gospels are guesses made by the gospel writers many decades later. My guess is that Pilate simply accepted the claims by the Jewish authorities who handed him over, may be also had his identity confirmed, and then sent him off to scourging and execution right away. That was the style of Pilate, as reported by Philo and Josephus.
John 18:36 says, “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world” Hence, there was either a witness whose identity isn’t given in the gospel because it isn’t important, or Jesus told the apostles about it after his resurrection, or Pilate told others.
It’s fallacious to use the “probably” construction when talking about Jesus and early Christianity. Jesus and his message beat all the odds over and over again to become the most important religion in history of the world. You might think he won the Powerball. Others might think he was God incarnate. Each conclusion is reasonable.
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